The Last Of Us Part II

[syz]

Spoiler: Some story info

What was the interesting thread to carry forward. The fireflies and a cure?

TLOU2 was all about the fireflies and the ramifications of a decision made in game one.

If a third game was ever made, I dont think there should be, I could see it being tied to Abby trying to convince Ellie to come back to the fireflies because they found a doctor that can make a vaccine.

Spoiler: Pt2 ending spoilers

Ellie and Joel's relationship should have been the focus, imo. Joel's a garbage person who sacrificed humanity so he could continue pretending to be a Dad. There's some stuff in flashbacks and they show that there's some friction between him and Ellie but ultimately they just pass judgment off to Abby, who kills him for entirely uninteresting "you killed my father prepare to die" reasons, which tosses the whole thing out the window and in turn leads to a more generic "because revenge" plot.

Speaking of, the fact that Part 3 is still such a distinct possibility is maybe the worst part. Even though they made a whole game about "revenge is bad," they still couldn't bring themselves to commit to it in the end. They go to the trouble of switching perspectives in an attempt to help us see that Ellie's an asshole (as if we couldn't tell already) but then chicken out when the time comes for her to suffer any consequences. Then they switch back to Ellie and they chicken out again at the end. So she doesn't get revenge, but also doesn't suffer any consequences other than getting dumped by her girlfriend and losing a couple of fingers. Her actions cause everyone she comes into contact with to suffer (a fact that I don't even know if they ever show her acknowledging) but they keep her in tact just in case they want to make another one.

If the whole gimmick is going to be something as well-worn as the perils of revenge, at least pull the trigger and put a bullet in her.

 

[Papa Francouz]

It is worth pointing out that one of the two main pre-release trailers is a 5 minute long cinematic without Ellie or Joel in it at all, so a lot of the talk about the trailers being intentionally misleading I feel is super overstated.

That’s a criticism that I’ve never understood. It’s a linear, narrative-driven game. If they give away any of the mystery Or plot points they’ve built up over seven years in a trailer, there goes the he motivation for some customers to buy the game.

 

[wingsnut19]

My biggest complaint with the game is the over reliance on jump scares. For me, it actually detracts from the suspense that the environment builds naturally, and most are just completely unnecessary.

I don't agree with complaints about the gameplay not being upgraded enough to be interesting. They've done plenty more with this game than they did in the first, and while a lot does get brought over from the first, the crafting is more interesting in that you have more items sharing different resources, so you really have to give thought to what you make as resources can be scarce. I enjoyed the gameplay well enough in the first so the changes that they have made are enough for me.

So far I have no issues with the story or its pacing. Right amount of intensity with big story payoffs for each section. Complaining about the pacing is really weird to me.

 

[Papa Francouz]

My biggest complaint with the game is the over reliance on jump scares. For me, it actually detracts from the suspense that the environment builds naturally, and most are just completely unnecessary.

I don't agree with complaints about the gameplay not being upgraded enough to be interesting. They've done plenty more with this game than they did in the first, and while a lot does get brought over from the first, the crafting is more interesting in that you have more items sharing different resources, so you really have to give thought to what you make as resources can be scarce. I enjoyed the gameplay well enough in the first so the changes that they have made are enough for me.

So far I have no issues with the story or its pacing. Right amount of intensity with big story payoffs for each section. Complaining about the pacing is really weird to me.

How does Seattle look? That's the one thing that I'm curious about with regards to this game. I spent a few years living there in my early twenties and hope they did Seattle justice.

As for the pacing aspect, I've only heard that from one person and that was a friend of mine I was talking to earlier today. He mentioned the game dragging on at times and I think he probably got that confused with the pacing. They're similar, but different, and I haven't heard anyone else complain about the pacing of the game apart from him. From what I've seen, most people that are criticizing the story are doing it because in their experience, the characters aren't consistent throughout the narrative. That, plus the characters aren't likable and the they have a lot of issues with the ending. I don't want to spoil anything for anyone so I'll leave it vague.

 

[wingsnut19]

How does Seattle look? That's the one thing that I'm curious about with regards to this game. I spent a few years living there in my early twenties and hope they did Seattle justice.

As for the pacing aspect, I've only heard that from one person and that was a friend of mine I was talking to earlier today. He mentioned the game dragging on at times and I think he probably got that confused with the pacing. They're similar, but different, and I haven't heard anyone else complain about the pacing of the game apart from him. From what I've seen, most people that are criticizing the story are doing it because in their experience, the characters aren't consistent throughout the narrative. That, plus the characters aren't likable and the they have a lot of issues with the ending. I don't want to spoil anything for anyone so I'll leave it vague.

I think they've done a great job with Seattle, but I've not been there so I can't speak to it's realism. It is more dreary and grey than the past game, as someone else mentioned. But for me there is enough colour to keep it beautiful. But I'm coming from playing through most of FF7 Remake, and I think compared to that game anything is going to seem colourful.

The game can drag, but more a result of extra exploration to do than because of the story. I've been skipping some of the exploration because I want to push the story forward. There have also been a couple points in the game where it gets to be excessive in the amount of enemies that it throws at you. That's a Naughty Dog staple. I am still a ways from the end but I really like the characters. I will recognize that I warm up to characters very quickly, and with this game I've adopted a understand all sides mindset that I think that if you can't manage, you're not going to enjoy yourself. It is the job of the developer to sell that to a wider audience and it does seem like ND has failed in that. But wow is it ever working on me so far. The first one is probably the only other game that had the same emotional impact on me that this one is having. This is likely why I'm finding myself defensive over the story even though I've not finished.

 

[Dolemite]

I think they've done a great job with Seattle, but I've not been there so I can't speak to it's realism.

They got the Public Library and the bus system right as well as the map....sort of. That said, if you look at the map she finds the city is one extremely steep hill from right to left down to the waterfront. Lots of made up businesses and buildings.

 

[Gnova]

Spoiler: Pt2 ending spoilers

Ellie and Joel's relationship should have been the focus, imo. Joel's a garbage person who sacrificed humanity so he could continue pretending to be a Dad. There's some stuff in flashbacks and they show that there's some friction between him and Ellie but ultimately they just pass judgment off to Abby, who kills him for entirely uninteresting "you killed my father prepare to die" reasons, which tosses the whole thing out the window and in turn leads to a more generic "because revenge" plot.

Speaking of, the fact that Part 3 is still such a distinct possibility is maybe the worst part. Even though they made a whole game about "revenge is bad," they still couldn't bring themselves to commit to it in the end. They go to the trouble of switching perspectives in an attempt to help us see that Ellie's an asshole (as if we couldn't tell already) but then chicken out when the time comes for her to suffer any consequences. Then they switch back to Ellie and they chicken out again at the end. So she doesn't get revenge, but also doesn't suffer any consequences other than getting dumped by her girlfriend and losing a couple of fingers. Her actions cause everyone she comes into contact with to suffer (a fact that I don't even know if they ever show her acknowledging) but they keep her in tact just in case they want to make another one.

If the whole gimmick is going to be something as well-worn as the perils of revenge, at least pull the trigger and put a bullet in her.

Spoiler

There were consequences for Ellie at the end, maybe worse than if she has died.

In the first game she was asked what her greatest fear was and her answer was "To be alone".
A lot of her fond memories of Joel were triggered by playing the guitar and even that was taken from her.
At the start of the game she had a decent life.
Prior to Santa Barbara she had a good life.
At the end she had nothing left but loneliness and regret.

In contrast Abby had made a strong connection with Lev and was heading towards fireflies and the hope that brings.

Ellie's relationship with Joel was a focus of the game, it was just handled differently by using flashbacks. The relationship was the entire reason for her drive for revenge.

 

[JoVel]

Spoiler

I just don't get the playing as Abby part... and for half the freaking game. Did they honestly think people would like that? I get it, they want to show both sides of the story, but Last of Us never painted Joel and Ellie as the "good guys". They're just as evil as any hunter and scavenger they run up to, they never pretended to be any better than them. I don't see how it was necessary in any way to play as Abby. I mean... we got introduced to Lev so that was kinda cool I guess...?

 

[CauZuki]

Spoiler

There were consequences for Ellie at the end, maybe worse than if she has died.

In the first game she was asked what her greatest fear was and her answer was "To be alone".
A lot of her fond memories of Joel were triggered by playing the guitar and even that was taken from her.
At the start of the game she had a decent life.
Prior to Santa Barbara she had a good life.
At the end she had nothing left but loneliness and regret.

In contrast Abby had made a strong connection with Lev and was heading towards fireflies and the hope that brings.

Ellie's relationship with Joel was a focus of the game, it was just handled differently by using flashbacks. The relationship was the entire reason for her drive for revenge.

I personally don't understand why people can't deal with playing as Ellie and Joel in a memory type style. I find it's a cool way of having a bit of the old style mixed with the new gen/dark path they took.

 

[Gnova]

Spoiler

I just don't get the playing as Abby part... and for half the freaking game. Did they honestly think people would like that? I get it, they want to show both sides of the story, but Last of Us never painted Joel and Ellie as the "good guys". They're just as evil as any hunter and scavenger they run up to, they never pretended to be any better than them. I don't see how it was necessary in any way to play as Abby. I mean... we got introduced to Lev so that was kinda cool I guess...?

Spoiler

I enjoyed played as Abby for the most part. It did take me until around the time she talks to Issac about Owen for me to warm up to her though.
I managed to completely avoid spoilers for the game so at the time I didn't realize how long I would be playing as her until I started picking up training manuals.
I think the best gameplay areas were while playing her story.
The only Ellie part I really loved, gameplay wise, was killing the asshole slavers. f*** those guys.

I will admit that I was a bit put off by Abby's body builder frame at first but after playing her and then switching back to Ellie I found myself wondering how Ellie was doing all of these physical feats with chicken bone arms.
Maybe it is time to break from the Lara Croft body frame when playing as a jumping and climbing endurance machine.

 

[Gnova]

I personally don't understand why people can't deal with playing as Ellie and Joel in a memory type style. I find it's a cool way of having a bit of the old style mixed with the new gen/dark path they took.

If they hadn't mixed some of that in the game to offset all the bad shit happening I'm not sure if it would have been enjoyable to play.

 

[syz]

Spoiler

There were consequences for Ellie at the end, maybe worse than if she has died.

In the first game she was asked what her greatest fear was and her answer was "To be alone".
A lot of her fond memories of Joel were triggered by playing the guitar and even that was taken from her.
At the start of the game she had a decent life.
Prior to Santa Barbara she had a good life.
At the end she had nothing left but loneliness and regret.

In contrast Abby had made a strong connection with Lev and was heading towards fireflies and the hope that brings.

Ellie's relationship with Joel was a focus of the game, it was just handled differently by using flashbacks. The relationship was the entire reason for her drive for revenge.

Spoiler

The relationship being used for revenge is the problem. It's probably the least interesting thing they could've done with it and yet it defines the entire story--perhaps even unjustifiably so, since I don't really think they do a great job of convincing anyone that Ellie's response is really all that believable given the state of her relationship with Joel. But even overlooking that, they spend dozens of hours showing and telling you that revenge is bad but at no point is anyone seriously offered an alternative. Characters occasionally opine about how maybe revenge is bad but then they continue to do it anyways.

By the end all of Ellie's friends are dead or gone and what is she (or us) supposed to think...? "Oh, revenge is bad actually"? Everybody involved should have known that like 25 hours ago. I didn't need an $80 prestige game to tell me that, but whatever; that's only really a problem in the larger context of people saying "this is the best video game story ever" or whatever.

Spoiler

I just don't get the playing as Abby part... and for half the freaking game. Did they honestly think people would like that? I get it, they want to show both sides of the story, but Last of Us never painted Joel and Ellie as the "good guys". They're just as evil as any hunter and scavenger they run up to, they never pretended to be any better than them. I don't see how it was necessary in any way to play as Abby. I mean... we got introduced to Lev so that was kinda cool I guess...?

Spoiler

The Abby section feels like a failed attempt by ND to get over their problem with ludonarrative dissonance. Emotional manipulation to try and get you to feel bad about all those people that the game itself made you murder--something that they usually just ignore completely. It still doesn't work though because they don't even commit to treating Ellie like a villain in the end, so ultimately all they manage to say is "look at what we made you do, isn't that terrible? that dog had a name, you know." Like, yea? No shit? Did you think I was enjoying it, or something?

Only thing that would've made that whole section remotely worthwhile is if they rode it out to the end. Switching back to Ellie invalidated most of it. There's stuff they could presumably build off of in a Part 3, but when viewed solely in the context of this game nothing really comes of it beyond some trite both sides-ism.

 

[Pilky01]

It sounds like in Red Dead where there will be a big long dramatic cut scene communicating how Arthur doesn't want to kill anybody unless it is absolutely necessary....and then as soon as the cutscene ends you have to murder 30-50 anonymous henchmen in order to progress in the story.

 

[Papa Francouz]

I think they've done a great job with Seattle, but I've not been there so I can't speak to it's realism. It is more dreary and grey than the past game, as someone else mentioned. But for me there is enough colour to keep it beautiful. But I'm coming from playing through most of FF7 Remake, and I think compared to that game anything is going to seem colourful.

The game can drag, but more a result of extra exploration to do than because of the story. I've been skipping some of the exploration because I want to push the story forward. There have also been a couple points in the game where it gets to be excessive in the amount of enemies that it throws at you. That's a Naughty Dog staple. I am still a ways from the end but I really like the characters. I will recognize that I warm up to characters very quickly, and with this game I've adopted a understand all sides mindset that I think that if you can't manage, you're not going to enjoy yourself. It is the job of the developer to sell that to a wider audience and it does seem like ND has failed in that. But wow is it ever working on me so far. The first one is probably the only other game that had the same emotional impact on me that this one is having. This is likely why I'm finding myself defensive over the story even though I've not finished.

Hah, fair enough. FFVII Remake was definitely a dark game, even during the Wall Market section and with HDR turned on. I had to spend a decent chunk of time in the VR missions just to get some color back into my life.

For sure, I can understand that. I was having a text conversation with my friend and asked him about his thoughts on the game, and that's when he mentioned the game drags on. I have no idea what his style of play is, so I'm not sure if he's milking the scenery, or exploring every building, or what have you. Your mindset sounds like what a lot of people need to have to enjoy the entire story, from what I've read. That, plus not having expectations for the story beats and not letting something upset them when something happens that they don't like. I don't think it forgives any instances of bad writing, but it would help a lot of people come to terms with some of the things I've read about.

I'm glad you're enjoying it, though. That's what games are made for, really. And no sweat about being defensive - we all hold some things close to our chests, despite what public opinion might say about them.

They got the Public Library and the bus system right as well as the map....sort of. That said, if you look at the map she finds the city is one extremely steep hill from right to left down to the waterfront. Lots of made up businesses and buildings.

Nice, thanks for sharing. Seattle still remains my favorite city a few years after I moved away. I'll have to look into watching a playthrough of the game sometime when I have a couple dozen hours to kill.

 

[Dolemite]

Kind of a spoiler, kind of not.

Make sure you hit this when you first arrive in Seattle.

 

[guinness]

How does Seattle look? That's the one thing that I'm curious about with regards to this game. I spent a few years living there in my early twenties and hope they did Seattle justice.

As for the pacing aspect, I've only heard that from one person and that was a friend of mine I was talking to earlier today. He mentioned the game dragging on at times and I think he probably got that confused with the pacing. They're similar, but different, and I haven't heard anyone else complain about the pacing of the game apart from him. From what I've seen, most people that are criticizing the story are doing it because in their experience, the characters aren't consistent throughout the narrative. That, plus the characters aren't likable and the they have a lot of issues with the ending. I don't want to spoil anything for anyone so I'll leave it vague.

There's a couple buildings I recognized downtown that I thought was cool, like the public library, with its funky glass design. However, given that most things are collapsed or overgrown...

As for the pacing, it's largely fine, but the longer I've played, they like to throw up more flashbacks, and one with Joel (3 years earlier....) just slammed it full stop for me. I'm at the start of another with Tommy, after basically running a damn gauntlet, and that sort of irritated me, or it was just a sign to stop playing last night.

Part II feels different to me than the first game, as I don't know if there's more chance for exploration or what, but that seems improved.

 

[Super Cake]

Delete

 

[Super Cake]

Spoiler

I just don't get the playing as Abby part... and for half the freaking game. Did they honestly think people would like that? I get it, they want to show both sides of the story, but Last of Us never painted Joel and Ellie as the "good guys". They're just as evil as any hunter and scavenger they run up to, they never pretended to be any better than them. I don't see how it was necessary in any way to play as Abby. I mean... we got introduced to Lev so that was kinda cool I guess...?

Spoiler

I instantly lost interest in finishing the rest of the game at that part. I watched the ending on youtube.

 

[542365]

Spoiler

I instantly lost interest in finishing the rest of the game at that part and went and watched the ending on youtube.

This is a common sentiment that I’ve seen online. I understand what they were going for, but it was definitely a risk, and it definitely didn’t land well with many people.

 

[Super Cake]

This is a common sentiment that I’ve seen online. I understand what they were going for, but it was definitely a risk, and it definitely didn’t land well with many people.

I was really enjoying it up until that point too. Don't know why, but i just couldn't get up to finishing the game at that point.

 

[Shareefruck]

I think the biggest problem with the approach they went with (which I think is fine in theory) is that

Spoiler

Abby is just not a very compelling character (she would barely be interesting as a side-character, let alone as an antagonist, let alone even more someone who's meant to carry the game), and over half of what's there feels like a rehash of Ellie, in order to heavy-handedly show how similarly they mirror each other. And I'm not even referring to likeability, which I find unimportant.

 

[Super Cake]

I think the biggest problem with the approach they went with (which I think is fine in theory) is that

Spoiler

Abby is just not a very compelling character (she would barely be interesting as a side-character, let alone as an antagonist, let alone even more someone who's meant to carry the game), and over half of what's there feels like a rehash of Ellie, in order to heavy-handedly show how similarly they mirror each other. And I'm not even referring to likeability, which I find unimportant.

Spoiler

Why do i get the feeling that if there is a last of us part 3, then abby will be the main character in it?

 

[Papa Francouz]

There's a couple buildings I recognized downtown that I thought was cool, like the public library, with its funky glass design. However, given that most things are collapsed or overgrown...

As for the pacing, it's largely fine, but the longer I've played, they like to throw up more flashbacks, and one with Joel (3 years earlier....) just slammed it full stop for me. I'm at the start of another with Tommy, after basically running a damn gauntlet, and that sort of irritated me, or it was just a sign to stop playing last night.

Part II feels different to me than the first game, as I don't know if there's more chance for exploration or what, but that seems improved.

That's awesome! I was watching Dunkey's review earlier today and noticed the Convention Center, which means they must have put at least a little bit of Westlake into the game, as well, I would imagine. They must have not gotten permission from Cheesecake Factory to put them in the game, though

I can't really tell from your post, but would it be safe to say you're enjoying it? I remember a few pages back you were just hoping for some improvements in the gameplay - has Part II met your expectations on that front? That's one of my biggest issues; I didn't think the gameplay in TLoU was any fun, and I don't want to drop $60 on this new game if the gameplay isn't fun (on top of the story issues I've already read about). Really my only interest in it is to see a post-apocalyptic Seattle come to life, so I might wait for a big price cut in a few years just to see what that looks like.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I just finished the game earlier today. It's a phenomenal game, not sure it's as emotionally resonate as the first one was for me, but it's up there

I went into the game on media blackout (meaning I hadn't seen any of the trailers past the one where Joel is revealed to be in the game, and I avoided 100% of the leaks from the hack), and it was worth the wait

 

[Gnova]

I'm currently playing through my 2nd run for trophy hunting and the game feels really different on the second playthrough.

Spoiler

Abby's friends dieing matter a lot more because you got to know them in the first rubthrough. Not all of them but a few for sure.
One of Abby's friends that I quite liked in the first game I now cant stand because they were one of the ones advocating killing Ellie and Tommy. I had missed who was for and against killing then in the first playthrough, except I knew Owen was against it.

Abby's start in the stadium was also a lot more entertaining because I no longer hated her like I did in playthrough one. I actually enjoyed the banter and conversations this time.