The Last Of Us Part II

[Carlzner]

Finally beat it. Took longer than expected due to real life stuff getting in the way, you really need to dole out at least a few hours into a session when playing this game.

It's a masterpiece. There's really nothing else like it in gaming. Gun to my head I probably say the first one is better, but this one is much, much more ambitious.

Full thoughts:

Spoiler

For starters... the decision to kill Joel was the only way this game could have properly been made. I'm convinced of that much. How else could a story have gone? Dina's introduced in the trailer, we get to know her in the first few hours, then she's killed off? That would have been way too obvious. I just can't see a proper story with him living through the game. As I said when playing, seeing him get murdered made me angry... angry to go after Abby & Co. Which is exactly what the developers intended, right?

I personally loved Abby. I was SO into those first few hours getting to know the WLF & her friends... Owen was another great character. The Lev stuff definitely dragged. Hard to feel attachment to that stuff but I could totally understand why Abby felt the way she did, and what drove her to make those decisions to help Lev & his sister.

That being said, the idea of putting the player in the shoes of the people you've been killing for the past 10 hours was brilliant IMO. The complaints about it are kind of mind boggling... as if the brutal-ness & realism of the game world from the first 1 1/2 games stop at the door when it comes to the families & personal lives of the hundreds of people you've gunned down along the way. I'm so, so glad they decided to turn it back on the player like that, I can't think of any game that I've played that has done something similar.

The two fights between Abby & Ellie were fascinating to me. Fighting as both characters I didn't want to go through & kill the other one, yet you are forced to by the game (Obviously it doesn't actually happen either time, it just seemed like such an interesting concept to put the player in that kind of position they don't want to be in.)

The gameplay can definitely get repetitive and I guess I understand the (few) complaints about them not innovating it enough... but I loved the gameplay for the first one so I'm not sure I would really want them to change it all that much? Feels like they added just enough to make it a little more interesting. I mean, fighting the Scars is practically a 3rd enemy type. Approached them totally differently than other humans.

It's disappointing this game got such a negative reaction because it's so, so ambitious and (for the most part) it pulls off what it's trying to accomplish.

 

[PeteWorrell]

Yep. It's why David Cage's story games are well received and isn't relentlessly mocked, despite the fact that his storytelling sensibilities are comparable to Tommy Wiseau.

Do not even get me started on the joke that is David Cage. I will hold back on ranting on him because this is not the thread for it but all i can say that IGN and other shills hype games like these to the moon because they are paid off and afraid to be blacklisted by Sony. People are better off listening to multiple smaller reviewers who are already blacklisted or simply do not give a damn so they will give their honest opinion.

 

[Fantomas]

What's wrong with David Cage games? They're cheesy, but good fun. Detroit Become Human was a blast and is extremely replayable.

They're also very anti-police, which truly hits my wokeness sweet spot.

 

[guinness]

What's wrong with David Cage games? They're cheesy, but good fun. Detroit Become Human was a blast and is extremely replayable.

They're also very anti-police, which truly hits my wokeness sweet spot.

I liked it too, and it had thought it had lots of replayability. Just wish it had more scenes around Detroit that I recognized. I know that it was futuristic, but seeing a big tall building on Belle Isle was different.

As for other QD games, I'm just familiar with the press x to Shaun meme. I've gotten the feeling that QD itself isn't a great company though.

 

[PALE PWNR]

just finished.

Spoiler

I absolutely loved it. I have to be honest. I was very disinterested in playing Abby at first. I really just wanted to rush through her early parts to get back to taking my revenge out on her group and f***ing them all up, so it probably deserves a replay because I just bulldozed through her early game. 2nd. I had no idea how long I would be playing her. I couldn't tell if the resources were shared between her and Ellie or not, regarding the upgrade things, so I was actually saving them for the longest time before I realized I was going to be playing a lot of her. I really enjoyed how they turned it around on you. I thought it was fantastic and a real gut check when you look back on what you did as Ellie. That said I think there were times it dragged a bit, and I felt like the decision of Ellie to not go save Tommy to go after the Aquarium felt a bit off for me. I wish they would have let you actually make a decision there. Aside from that, I really enjoyed playing the game and going on the rollercoaster that it was. I must admit I was rather bored with the gameplay itself for the last couple hours regarding just the random encounters you find. You can only cut so many henchmen's throats before it gets repetitive. I found the Rat King to be exceptionally difficult as a fight and almost caught myself giving up at that point but it felt good to put him down.

All of that said, I think the story was excellent as usual. I'm glad it was launched the way it was. I'm glad I was able to feel angry and wanting to avenge Joel in the beginning and I'm glad that about halfway through I started feeling sick and bad about the things that I did. It was an experience. Naughty Dog is good at those. It's good at manipulating your emotions, and taking you for a ride. It's why I love their games. So different from Uncharted, so dark and grim. I really enjoyed it. I need to play something happy now.

 

[JaegerDice]

My only problem with Last of Us 2 is that I felt the same way after finishing it as I did the day it was announced:

I don't think it needs to exist.

Nothing about the game, or the story they told, or the underlying message felt necessary.

I think you leave the Last of Us as is, without the Last of Us 2, it's a complete story.

I don't need the 'But Wait! There's MORE!' in my fiction.

It's a very well made game. I enjoyed playing it. But I think I'll remember the first Last of Us a lot longer than I will this game.

 

[Trap Jesus]

I'm up to the part where

Spoiler

Ellie is trying to break into the hospital, after the flashback to Ellie/Joel going off to try to get guitar strings

Can anyone explain to me (without spoiling to the part where I'm at) what the controversy surrounding this game is? I've avoided all leaks so I'm playing through fresh but I just cannot understand what the uproar is over. All I know is a lot of people aren't happy about it but I don't know why? Is it just

Spoiler

killing off Joel early? That actually adds stakes to the story/game, not sure why that's so controversial.

 

[Carlzner]

I'm up to the part where

Spoiler

Ellie is trying to break into the hospital, after the flashback to Ellie/Joel going off to try to get guitar strings

Can anyone explain to me (without spoiling to the part where I'm at) what the controversy surrounding this game is? I've avoided all leaks so I'm playing through fresh but I just cannot understand what the uproar is over. All I know is a lot of people aren't happy about it but I don't know why? Is it just

Spoiler

killing off Joel early? That actually adds stakes to the story/game, not sure why that's so controversial.

That’s part of it, yes.

You’ll see the other reason in a few hours. Then the other other reason about 5 hours after that.

 

[JoVel]

That’s part of it, yes.

You’ll see the other reason in a few hours. Then the other other reason about 5 hours after that.

I would've liked to see the response to this game without the leaks. No doubt there would've still been bunch of controversy, but I feel like a massive part of the hate is coming from people who have never even touched the game.

 

[JaegerDice]

I would've liked to see the response to this game without the leaks. No doubt there would've still been bunch of controversy, but I feel like a massive part of the hate is coming from people who have never even touched the game.

Yes and no.

There was massive backlash to Metal Gear Solid 2, even though there were ZERO leaks about that twist. Some measure of this backlash is simply a result of a fair number of people believing they were going to get one story, and getting another instead. That doesn't make the story they got bad, it just makes it one they weren't excited for... and when you rob people of something they were excited for, you get anger.

The out-of-context leaks didn't help, but I don't think Naughty Dog were going to release this game as is without some measure of controversy. They made bold storytelling decisions and any truly bold decision will be controversial.

 

[aleshemsky83]

This game certainly didn't go broke by going woke, 2.8 million digital sales alone launch month. Likely will be a 3rd game in the franchise.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Fantastic game. Didn't read the spoilers or watch fan reviews before completing it and the amount of hate was really unexpected.

This is a great example of what happens when you make sequel to a beloved game and put out a story that goes completely against what the fanboys wanted. I expect people are going to look back at the game a few years from now and realize its a solid title, once they get over their rage.

If you look at the game objectively it has tremendous visuals/audio, the gameplay is among the best in this genre, the attention to detail is almost as good as it gets for the current gen and there is a surprising amount of content for a linear single player experience. The hate almost exclusively comes from the story which I found to quite good. I was positively surprised that the devs didn't want to make a title that just felt like TLOU 1.5 storywise and that there was a lot of risks taken, even if it was going to alienate some of the audience.

 

[JJ68]

Anybody who thinks fan service makes compelling or good movies and or video games is tripping.

The haters can bite it.

 

[JoVel]

Looking back at the game and starting a 2nd playthrough, the Seraphite Island segment might just be one of my favorite pieces of gameplay of all time in any game. Like the story or not, the visuals and gameplay mechanics make the combat in the game super fun.

 

[Trap Jesus]

That’s part of it, yes.

You’ll see the other reason in a few hours. Then the other other reason about 5 hours after that.

Are you talking about

Spoiler

fleshing out Abby's backstory by being able to play as her for an extended period of time?

 

[Carlzner]

Are you talking about

Spoiler

fleshing out Abby's backstory by being able to play as her for an extended period of time?

Yes

 

[Trap Jesus]

Yes

Spoiler

I love the idea in theory, painting the villain as a monster only to drop a lot of backstory explaining their motivation and what led her to the decisions she made.

The only reason it doesn't fully work to humanize Abby and her father though is that they were going to harvest Ellie without her knowing about it. They paint the father as expressing regret after he makes the decision, but it seems like he has no problem coming up with the plan and wanting to execute it. For whatever reason they work out that it would be "right" to tell Joel about it but not Ellie, which is kind of like a "having your cake and eating it too" thing. And then of course with Abby being present for the discussion and agreeing with/supporting her father, it incriminates her as a character that you can't fully support her as the player.

I think if they were to tell Ellie about it and she didn't want to go through with it, it would have created an interesting dynamic for whether they force her to for the "common good", but then that would have spoiled the Joel/Ellie thing where he conceals that info from her.

I think in the original game you could make a choice whether to kill the doctor, although I remember shooting them so it makes sense in my storyline.

One thing I do like with the Abby stuff is that they don't make it seem like the WLF are these good, misunderstood people. You still see signs of things there that these are the real bad guys, I think it would have been hokey if they played it up that good vs. evil is really gray. I like the stuff where they have that bizarre and dark tag line they bid each other "good luck" with, and that they have those holding cells where they torture people (with Abby saying she wouldn't mind having a go at one of them).

 

[Fantomas]

Got two hours to kill? Well, here you go.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

That guy has some pretty brutal video titles.

"How to KILL a franchise"
"How to FAIL at character"
"How to FAIL at adaptation"
"How to BORE your AUDIENCE"

 

[Fantomas]

That guy has some pretty brutal video titles.

"How to KILL a franchise"
"How to FAIL at character"
"How to FAIL at adaptation"
"How to BORE your AUDIENCE"

I was ready to hate, but then he won me over with this one.

 

[aleshemsky83]

I don't know those videos always turn me off

_____ didn't die, it was MURDERED

 

[PeteWorrell]

Got two hours to kill? Well, here you go.

Great use of movies and graphics to explain the narrative tension and why the plot was disjointed and had poor pacing. Druckmann was more interested in subverting expectations then having a narrative structure that made sense.

 

[Papa Francouz]

I still maintain the biggest issue with this game was that the script wasn't workshopped or critiqued by enough people before they moved ahead with it. Even from just watching a playthrough of the game, there are some glaringly obvious writing errors that would typically get pointed out and corrected in a workshop scenario by any writers worth their salt.

Maybe that's a reflection on Druckmann's ego, maybe it's a reflection on Naughty Dog not wanting people outside the company to see the script before the game is made; I don't know. All I know is the above video points out a lot of missteps by the writers that are obvious to anyone who's taken Creative Writing 101.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I still maintain the biggest issue with this game was that the script wasn't workshopped or critiqued by enough people before they moved ahead with it. Even from just watching a playthrough of the game, there are some glaringly obvious writing errors that would typically get pointed out and corrected in a workshop scenario by any writers worth their salt.

Maybe that's a reflection on Druckmann's ego, maybe it's a reflection on Naughty Dog not wanting people outside the company to see the script before the game is made; I don't know. All I know is the above video points out a lot of missteps by the writers that are obvious to anyone who's taken Creative Writing 101.

You are making a lot of speculative declarations in this post.

What writing "errors" are you talking about?

 

[Papa Francouz]

You are making a lot of speculative declarations in this post.

What writing "errors" are you talking about?

To the bolded: yes, but I'm doing it based off of years of experience in writing workshops and classroom environments. From what I've seen in the past, the same issues with the script for TLOU2 are consistent with the issues that you see with writers that don't take constructive criticism or don't attempt to refine their work based on the feedback of other writers.

As for your question, I'll try to keep it brief. I'll gladly follow up on any questions you might have, but I don't really want to write an essay on the topic. The video that @Fantomas posted above discusses some of these issues in greater detail if you wanted to look into these issues on a deeper level.

-Narrative structure: the modular design that the writers of the game went with hindered their ability to tell a cohesive story. While modular design is typically used to reinforce the theme of a story, in this instance it muddied the waters with unnecessary flashbacks and a complete & total disregard for the tension built in the first half of the game.

-Flashbacks: when it comes to writing, if a story depends so greatly on flashbacks in order to show character development and explain away plot inconsistencies, the story being told is the wrong one. In this instance, the story in the flashbacks should have been the primary story of the game, as the flashbacks are where the character development occurred.

-Characters: the characters in this game were unlikable, which is fine, and the dialogue overall was decent. The issue here is when the characters acted against their previously known character traits in order to fit into the plot. Forcing the reader (or player) to assume that a character has changed from the previous game is bad writing, as this character's transformational arc needs to be shown in order to be incorporated into the story.

-Plot: in TLOU2, the plot drives the characters. While this isn't inherently bad, in a "character-driven" narrative it clashes with the overall goal of the story. It also exposes the writers and shows them moving the characters around like chess pieces instead of letting the characters organically tell the story.

The ludonarrative dissonance is pretty extreme, too, as the story being told in the cutscenes doesn't always match the story being told in the gameplay, but that's deviating away from the script and is more an issue with how the gameplay was implemented than how the script was written.