The Jim Benning & Management Megathread Part IV (MOD WARNING POST #554, #801)

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Stig

Your hero.
Feb 14, 2013
15,620
3,794
Maple Ridge B.C.
He scores 15 to 20 goals by mid-season, and there are a dozen teams that want him. By that point, he also probably just want to get out of here, and Benning has his choice of package to choose from.
:thumbu:

Anaheim will probably ante up by then.

Thats not how things work. There was a dozen teams that wanted him anyway. He only wanted to go to Anaheim. Plus what if he refuses to report? Or if this whole wanting out thing causes a rift in the locker room? What if he gets all grumpy and doesn't produce and plummets his value? Or gets hurt again? Then what?
 

nameless1

Registered User
Apr 29, 2009
18,202
1,019
Thats not how things work. There was a dozen teams that wanted him anyway. He only wanted to go to Anaheim. Plus what if he refuses to report? Or if this whole wanting out thing causes a rift in the locker room? What if he gets all grumpy and doesn't produce and plummets his value? Or gets hurt again? Then what?

Here is the thing about Kesler though. He is a competitor, and winning is very important to him. Even if he wants to get out of here, he will still give his all when he suits up. It is in his DNA. Plus, he only demanded a trade, mainly because he wants to win the Cup, and he believes Vancouver's window is closed.

Thus, even if he is not traded, I have no reason to believe that he will try to save himself from injury. Other people will also tell him that in order to get traded, he has to play his best, in order to boost his trade value.

If he actually gets injured, so be it. He can still be traded this off-season, and there is no reason to believe that interest in him will drop that much.

That said, the more I think about it, the more I believe last off-season was the best time to trade him. Unfortunately, the package the Canucks got back is far less than anticipated. That is on ownership and Benning, based on information that has come out thus far.
 
Last edited:

Verviticus

Registered User
Jul 23, 2010
12,664
592
kesler and his agent arent stupid. there's not a ****ing chance in hell he'd have earned his absurd extension (one im glad we didnt give him) if he sat out a year
 

The Drop

Rain Drop, Drop Top
Jul 12, 2015
14,873
4,060
Vancouver
Thats not how things work. There was a dozen teams that wanted him anyway. He only wanted to go to Anaheim. Plus what if he refuses to report? Or if this whole wanting out thing causes a rift in the locker room? What if he gets all grumpy and doesn't produce and plummets his value? Or gets hurt again? Then what?

Marty St Louis only wanted to go to New York and their haul was Callahan (better than Bonino) A first and a conditional second which turned into s first.

This was a guy who publicly showed his displeasure and was a given he'd be traded yet he yielded a much better return than Kesler.
 

pahlsson

Registered User
Mar 22, 2012
9,952
472
when was the last time the canucks got a conditional pick back in a trade? i don't know why they don't happen more often, i feel like the kesler trade would've been a perfect opportunity to extract some extra value from a team looking for pieces to put them over the top (like the rangers)
 

The Drop

Rain Drop, Drop Top
Jul 12, 2015
14,873
4,060
Vancouver
when was the last time the canucks got a conditional pick back in a trade? i don't know why they don't happen more often, i feel like the kesler trade would've been a perfect opportunity to extract some extra value from a team looking for pieces to put them over the top (like the rangers)

"Conference final and 2nd turns to first" would have been helpful
 

Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
27,139
4,414
Marty St Louis only wanted to go to New York and their haul was Callahan (better than Bonino) A first and a conditional second which turned into s first.

This was a guy who publicly showed his displeasure and was a given he'd be traded yet he yielded a much better return than Kesler.
The Rangers gave up a 2nd rounder the other way, too. It ended up being:

St. Louis
2nd (#60 Kylington)

for

Callahan
1st (#28 Ho-Sang)
1st (#28 Beaullivier)
7th (#209 Paigin)
 

Bourne Endeavor

Registered User
Apr 6, 2009
37,990
6,459
Montreal, Quebec
Thats not how things work. There was a dozen teams that wanted him anyway. He only wanted to go to Anaheim. Plus what if he refuses to report? Or if this whole wanting out thing causes a rift in the locker room? What if he gets all grumpy and doesn't produce and plummets his value? Or gets hurt again? Then what?

As pointed out, there isn't a chance in hell Kesler sits out all season. If he did, it's his own career he's ruining. Frankly, I doubt he even suggested it, but his agent thought of trying to force a trade. Regardless, that is a chance I'd be willing to take. A new coach and playing with Vrbata could have easily changed his mind as the season wore on. A late first would always been on the table.

We kept Lu despite all the turmoil and he came around until Torts decided to snub him.
 

Lonny Bohonos

Registered User
Apr 4, 2010
15,645
2,060
Middle East
So what if Lemieux disagreed with Gretzky?

Do you look at the back of their hockey cards to see whose right or do you weight the strength of reasoning that supports each perspective?

Is every team that didn't attempt to sign Ryan Miller run by idiots?

Tie breaker goes to "favorite meal" followed by birth year.
 

Jimson Hogarth*

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
12,858
3
As pointed out, there isn't a chance in hell Kesler sits out all season. If he did, it's his own career he's ruining. Frankly, I doubt he even suggested it, but his agent thought of trying to force a trade. Regardless, that is a chance I'd be willing to take. A new coach and playing with Vrbata could have easily changed his mind as the season wore on. A late first would always been on the table.

We kept Lu despite all the turmoil and he came around until Torts decided to snub him.

yea rofl we still paying for that one, not a great example :laugh:
 

Ainec

Panetta was not racist
Jun 20, 2009
21,784
6,429
We have the potential to be worse than the Phoenix Coyotes

There's hope.



Sbisa and Markstrom :)
 

Verviticus

Registered User
Jul 23, 2010
12,664
592
The Rangers gave up a 2nd rounder the other way, too. It ended up being:

St. Louis
2nd (#60 Kylington)

for

Callahan
1st (#28 Ho-Sang)
1st (#28 Beaullivier)
7th (#209 Paigin)

what a bunch of awesome ****ing names in that list too, huh. that definitely has the potential to be one of those "shanahan for stevens" looking trades
 

biturbo19

Registered User
Jul 13, 2010
25,958
11,022
As pointed out, there isn't a chance in hell Kesler sits out all season. If he did, it's his own career he's ruining. Frankly, I doubt he even suggested it, but his agent thought of trying to force a trade. Regardless, that is a chance I'd be willing to take. A new coach and playing with Vrbata could have easily changed his mind as the season wore on. A late first would always been on the table.

We kept Lu despite all the turmoil and he came around until Torts decided to snub him.

:laugh: Luongo never "came around"...he was stuck here - what was he going to do, refuse to report so the Canucks could just terminate his million year contract? :laugh: He festered here...ultimately part of the locker room discord, until it all finally came to a head he was traded (read, dumped) for a goaltending project and effectively a one-year rental, 100% easily replaceable bottom-6 player..WITH salary retention, on a deal that is inevitably going to come back to bite us in the ass with cap recapture penalties, completely out of the control of whoever is the GM here when Luongo decides to pack it in.
 
Last edited:

Verviticus

Registered User
Jul 23, 2010
12,664
592
matthias is a uniquely good goal scorer for a bottom sixer. he's not "100% easily replaceable" to me

edit: i'd take 1:1 odds that the recapture penalty is waived or diminished substantially if/when it happens
 

biturbo19

Registered User
Jul 13, 2010
25,958
11,022
matthias is a uniquely good goal scorer for a bottom sixer. he's not "100% easily replaceable" to me

I would then suggest you may have a uniquely high opinion of Matthias as a player.

People love that goal-scoring stat for Shawn...do we really think he's a guy who can replicate that with any consistency whatsoever, absent the opportunities he saw here last year and a healthy dose of luck? Granted...career-wise, he made likely a very smart call signing with a Leafs team where he's probably in line to get at least that kind of opportunity again, if not more.

You can sign 20-30pt players all day and all night if you want. There are probably at least a half-dozen guys i'd take over Matthias in that bracket who are still available as Unrestricted Free Agents at this very moment. It's not as though he added some particularly great "intangibles" or anything. He happened to have a fortunate year where injuries and great luck conspired to make him an "almost 20g scorer" with barely any other offensive credentials.

You literally do not even have to move beyond a pair of Matthias former teammates in Florida to find better "value" bottom-6 players. I'd take Bergenheim or Upshall over Matthias every day...guys who actually use their size, and have more than one year of results to their name.

Matthias literally had half as many assists as Derek "no skill" Dorsett. That's not raising any eyebrows as to his quality as an overall player or the luck of his goal total in this one season for you? He's just such an uncannily skilled goal scorer that he doesn't need to bother with being in on other scoring plays or anything? Or any scoring plays against the conference we actually play in?
 

vanuck

Now with 100% less Benning!
Dec 28, 2009
16,807
4,043
Potatoes can't make bad trades and signings. Potato confirmed better GM. Meat could be the assistant GM.

It's kind of sad when a potato literally would've done a less poor of a job as GM of this team. Hilarious in a depressing way too.
 

Wilch

Unregistered User
Mar 29, 2010
12,224
487
Thats not how things work. There was a dozen teams that wanted him anyway. He only wanted to go to Anaheim. Plus what if he refuses to report? Or if this whole wanting out thing causes a rift in the locker room? What if he gets all grumpy and doesn't produce and plummets his value? Or gets hurt again? Then what?

What if Benning traded one of our most valuable trade chip for a middling tweener, a late first, and a cap dump?

Oh wait.
 

biturbo19

Registered User
Jul 13, 2010
25,958
11,022
What if Benning traded one of our most valuable trade chip for a middling tweener, a late first, and a cap dump?

Oh wait.

It probably doesn't actually need rehashing...

But you guys remember when we had that Kesler guy who didn't want out?

And then we had that Kesler guy who was a completely toxic guy to have around because he was adamant about wanting out and had to be traded?

As fun and convenient as it may be to pin that on the current GM...that's all stuff that originated under the previous masterful GM, is it not? Maybe if that last guy hadn't hired a ****ing horrendous coach, that might've helped. But hey, let's give him a pass on that. Maybe it was big bad "ownership" mandated. After all, everyone respects the heck out of dudes who completely and totally kowtow to ownership demands that they know are going to destroy the company, and then later rescind their comments on and pull a complete about-face on, to talk about "the good ol' days". Or wait...:laugh:
 

Wilch

Unregistered User
Mar 29, 2010
12,224
487
It probably doesn't actually need rehashing...

But you guys remember when we had that Kesler guy who didn't want out?

And then we had that Kesler guy who was a completely toxic guy to have around because he was adamant about wanting out and had to be traded?

As fun and convenient as it may be to pin that on the current GM...that's all stuff that originated under the previous masterful GM, is it not? Maybe if that last guy hadn't hired a ****ing horrendous coach, that might've helped. But hey, let's give him a pass on that. Maybe it was big bad "ownership" mandated. After all, everyone respects the heck out of dudes who completely and totally kowtow to ownership demands that they know are going to destroy the company, and then later rescind their comments on and pull a complete about-face on, to talk about "the good ol' days". Or wait...:laugh:

It probably doesn't need rehashing, but Benning had things going against him and things going for him in that situation.

He got turned around and bent over.

This trend continued to be painfully obvious in the Miller signing, the Sbisa extension, the Dorsett extension, Lack deal, Kassian deal.
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
18,761
5,972
I am fine with Kesler being traded at the time of the draft as opposed to later. Again, the best offer Gillis considered at the deadline was Pen's 1st, Sutter, and Despres/Dumoulin. Now one can argue Sutter vs. Bonino and Despres vs Sbisa, but the value is similar. Perhaps, had Shero remained as the Pens GM, he would have stepped up and offered what Gillis had apparently wanted (which was Pouliot as the Dman coming back in return).

In terms of keeping Kesler, keep in mind that the Canucks leadership group deemed Kesler to be unfit to wear a letter on his jersey. This suggests that his presence in the locker room is more toxic than Luongo ever was.

when was the last time the canucks got a conditional pick back in a trade? i don't know why they don't happen more often

Matthieu Schnieder trade.
 

biturbo19

Registered User
Jul 13, 2010
25,958
11,022
It probably doesn't need rehashing, but Benning had things going against him and things going for him in that situation.

He got turned around and bent over.

This trend continued to be painfully obvious in the Miller signing, the Sbisa extension, the Dorsett extension, Lack deal, Kassian deal.

He's clearly done some pretty dumb things here. Some very less than ideal things. And some things that i don't completely agree with. There is always going to be that handful of convenient examples to trot out (for the time being at least) to represent that. We all know.

But...there's also been a clear direction here, like it or not. This is building a team of players who really want to be here and give a ****. It's about building a team full of players they do want in their organization, rather than "real available dudes". In some cases, that has represented "poor value" on the consensus poll among fans in clearing the decks" and purging players who do not fit or do not fill roles for the future. But ultimately, it's about building a completely different Canucks team for the future...something that i haven't seen in my lifetime. And i'm willing to hear them out on this...an awful lot of it aligns with the way i view team building. It's clearly not the "boo skill is pointless" neanderthal supreme philosophy it is generally portrayed as here. It's about building a real "team" that scares people. May well fail and fall short...but if you want a long-term vision for the team, squabbling over transition-term minor value discrepancies is so pointless.

The general perception of Benning's "negotiation prowess" or lack thereof, thus far...has been pretty much exclusively based in players that he either didn't seem to want in the organization, or was forced to move as a consequence of terrible previous regime decisions.

Do we really think Benning is going to be such a "soft negotiator" in just giving away "his guys"? Is he just going to ship out players he wants here on the discount wire? I doubt that very much...

Which is where i stand. I'm kind of iffy on a bunch of moves, i like some, dislike others...but as a whole, i can see a clear vision here. And i'm not going to hang myself up on minute details at the expense of the total picture.

Benning is clearly in a mode of putting "his guys" in place, at every level, and in every sense of the idea. Many here have kneejerked at every turn along the way. But ultimately, i'm going to give the guy the benefit of the doubt here...i want to see what a team full of "Benning guys" can do. If you're gonna make a guy "General Manager"...i think you owe it to that guy to give him leash to actually present "His Team", rather than judge him on the minutia of how he transitions from the inherited group to "his team".

Any time you go from a moneypuck sleazeball agent background like Gillis to a "real good talker hockey guy" scouting background like Benning, it's going to be a stark transition period. That's where we're at right now. And in an even more awkward situation as it's a very middling team (and pretty firmly entrenched there) that has changed hands here...


It's not a confidence Benning and Co. are building a cup champion here...it's a respect for what they seem to be trying to do, and a real fair interest in what that ultimately yields.

You come into a company tasked with turning the whole declining thing around and setting a new direction that starts at the lowest levels...sometimes that's gonna take time. And sweating the details during the transition phase is going to look really silly down the line.

Worst case scenario? These clowns obliterate the team and hey...miracle, we're the "tank team" so many here seemed to want anyway! It's win-win really!
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
27,063
6,639
You come into a company tasked with turning the whole declining thing around and setting a new direction that starts at the lowest levels...sometimes that's gonna take time. And sweating the details during the transition phase is going to look really silly down the line.

Worst case scenario? These clowns obliterate the team and hey...miracle, we're the "tank team" so many here seemed to want anyway! It's win-win really!



Why call them "clowns" when you believe in their vision?

"Sweating the details during the transition"... Any GM would kill to work in such an environment:

- Screw up on trades? Don't worry, he's getting rid of 'not his guys'.

- Pay a premium for marginal assets? Don't worry, he's getting 'his guys' and his building 'a real team'.

- End up with a marginal product in the end? Don't worry, it was the 'transition phase'.

- Keep screwing up for 4 years? Don't worry, you have to give a GM 5 years before you finally judge him.


But in reality, as we see the media and fans turn on him so quickly into his tenure, there are knowledgeable fans in this market that will express their displeasure. That's already happened - and it will get worse if Benning does not improve.
 

biturbo19

Registered User
Jul 13, 2010
25,958
11,022
Why call them "clowns" when you believe in their vision?

facetious comment, if that wasn't apparent to begin with.

"Sweating the details during the transition"... Any GM would kill to work in such an environment:

And is that a bad thing? Giving a GM a great opportunity to actually shape a team in their mold is somehow a bad thing?

- Screw up on trades? Don't worry, he's getting rid of 'not his guys'.

That's part of change. You want to build a team of "your guys", sometimes the league-wide "value" on the guys you don't want, is going to be crappy - probably for a lot of the same reasons they aren't guys you want to keep. Weird how that works...

- Pay a premium for marginal assets? Don't worry, he's getting 'his guys' and his building 'a real team'.

Make some gambles in that transition period with fringe players and low rent picks? Yeah...some of them are going to come up bust. That's not a catastrophe...that's...normal and predictable.

- End up with a marginal product in the end? Don't worry, it was the 'transition phase'.

If it ultimately ends up with a marginal product then no...that's not okay. But the "ends" isn't one year out, it takes time to reorganize an organization. That's years and years out. You can derisively quotation "transition phase" all you want...but it's the reality of a cap and parity NHL. And especially true, when moving from one head of state to another, and yet more true and apparent when the philosophy of these subsequent GMs is so radically different as it was from Gillis to Benning.

- Keep screwing up for 4 years? Don't worry, you have to give a GM 5 years before you finally judge him.

You seem to scoff at this idea of giving a GM 5 years to really build "their team". I don't understand this notion at all. You don't just turn a team around overnight...especially one in this unavoidable and undeniably declining middleground of the Canucks right now.

Benning is walking into a radically different situation than Gillis did. The latter was handed the core of a cup team, and did a pretty great job of filling in some pieces around them to get them ever so close that one year. He took what was there, and filled it out pretty well. Benning on the other hand...inherited a team in which Gillis had managed to add approximately...2 core players (Bo and Tanev?), with his former "Cup Core" on the wrong side of 30 as a group...and tasked with producing a "New Core" for "The Future". That's a massively more difficult and long-term task.

coax a cup-calibre core to the finals vs completely rebuild a team. different.

If i'm a GM taking on a job, i definitely want to know that i'm going to get my 5 years to build "My Team", not just tweak the last dude's blueprint and be condemned a year out despite delivering a pretty solid team that made the playoffs comfortable after being a bottom-10 team the year before. It's a good deal of time to commit to a GM, but if you're not willing to commit that time to their vision of a team, then honestly, why bother? Why even fire Gillis, if all you want is "more Gillis doings"?

5 years is a long time, but in organizational development terms...that's a very reasonable window. That's a reasonable window to justify a completion of a GM's contributions on. Gillis got his 5 years...he done good. But when his 5th was regression, and his 6th was an unwatchable turd of a season, that's not fickle...that's a guy who couldn't seem to bring the results in the seasons where it's completely and totally "Your Team".

"rebuilding" isn't an instant process. Putting together a completely new "core" for a team outside of Horvat and maybe Tanev...that's a crazy tall task. That's starting from scratch...with a team that under competent coaching, still has a shot at the playoffs.

But in reality, as we see the media and fans turn on him so quickly into his tenure, there are knowledgeable fans in this market that will express their displeasure. That's already happened - and it will get worse if Benning does not improve.

It's not "knowledgeable" fans. It's fans who read a lot of "advanced stats" stuff. It's a fickle and superficial fanbase who ticket-wise, are already bailing like mad. Forum-wise here, are jumping from the bandwagon because it's no fun if the team isn't dominant, or dominantly rebuilding. It's knowledge of Corsi results, HERO charts, and "advanced stats", and the portrayal of them by the media.

It's a fanbase building their consensus on fundamentally...how many shots for/against the team had. Which is completely insane. You call it "Corsi" and people abide by this like its the law. You call it...shots for/against, and it's the most goofy thing to base a fundamental impression of a team around. Yet that's what it is...it's as "advanced" as the much derided "Zone Time" statistic...probably even less advanced, as it is fundamentally a rough approximation of the latter Zone Time stat by other means.

Knowledgeable is not the same as "reads a lot of press", "follows them blogs", and "can go to corsi providing sites on the internet". :)
 

Wilch

Unregistered User
Mar 29, 2010
12,224
487
He's clearly done some pretty dumb things here. Some very less than ideal things.

You can't expect GMs to always make decisions that lead to results, but their decisions should always have logic behind it.

Competent executives take intelligent risks and accept sensible failures.

Several of Benning's decisions have little reason or merit behind them right off the bat, and are quite often high risk low reward.

I'm not sure how anyone [MOD] can support someone making such blatantly bad decisions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad