The Jim Benning & Management Megathread Part IV (MOD WARNING POST #554, #801)

[Cupless44]

How do you know it was hyperbole? The greatest player in league history said it was true. You can list dozens of examples of contracts YOU think are better, but who are you? I think the greatest player in the game who built a gold-medal winning Team Canada and was good enough to earn the right to coach in the NHL would know a little bit more about this than some internet poster

See how that works? The appeal to authority is, uh, not a very fun way to argue.

Do you dispute that Gretzky has more hockey experience, knows more people in the NHL, has access to more inside information through his relationships than we do?

Might not be a fun way to argue, but people working in the league like Benning, have access to information the hockey fan will never see.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Might not be a fun way to argue, but people working in the league like Benning, have access to information the hockey fan will never see.

I want to see the type of information that Mike Milbury was accessing.

 

[Verviticus]

benning is welcome to come here and dispute things with that information. until then, why the **** would I care?

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

There's absolutely zero proof that the Aquilinis vetoed anything. If they did, it was the offer from Pittsburgh (reported as a 1st, a 3rd, and Sutter, or Depres and a 1st).

Your intellectual dishonesty in these posts greatly diminishes any point you're trying to make -- if, indeed, you have one.

The point is that Etem and two 2nds is a far cry from the "Vatanen +10" trade everyone keeps saying Hillis was going to get if only it wasn't for the owners veto.

 

[racerjoe]

The point is that Etem and two 2nds is a far cry from the "Vatanen +10" trade everyone keeps saying Hillis was going to get if only it wasn't for the owners veto.

After the word 2nds, none of what you said is true.

 

[Cupless44]

The point is that Etem and two 2nds is a far cry from the "Vatanen +10" trade everyone keeps saying Hillis was going to get if only it wasn't for the owners veto.

I think it is pretty safe to say Murray was not interested in moving the 10 pick, Vatanen or Theadore.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

After the word 2nds, none of what you said is true.

Really? I was beating the "10th+" Vatanen or Theodore. Seemed like neither were even close to actually being on the table. I think Etem and two 2nds is close to where Gillis was going.

 

[Trelane]

I recall reading somewhere that Vey was acquired mostly because "Willie pushed hard" for him. No issue with a new a GM giving his new coach a vote of confidence by tossing a 2nd to get "his guy," if it is just once. If it works out, great, if not, hopefully they'll both learn from it. Willie will know not to push and Benning will know better than to act. I would like to see more meeting of minds between coach and GM than what we were served during the later years of MG-AV and of course MG-Torts.

Still way too early to come to any real conclusion on the other moves. Frankly, if Ducks don't win the cup (the only thing that matters) I'm having a hard time seeing how we can outright lose that trade even if McCann busts. In a couple of years time it could just be one mediocre/poor, overpaid D man for a fast declining 2-way forward who is even more overpaid.

 

[Diamonddog01]

There's absolutely zero proof that the Aquilinis vetoed anything. If they did, it was the offer from Pittsburgh (reported as a 1st, a 3rd, and Sutter, or Depres and a 1st).

Your intellectual dishonesty in these posts greatly diminishes any point you're trying to make -- if, indeed, you have one.

I don't think you're one to lecture anyone regarding intellectual honesty...

 

[RandV]

After the word 2nds, none of what you said is true.

Rather than two firsts it simply could have been Etem, one first 1st, and one 2nd, which would be more on par with what we actually got. I think it's a huge stretch to have Murray saying the things he said at the draft only to have Benning negotiate him from Etem up to Bonino and a 2nd up to a 1st, all at the cost of Sbisa for one of the 2nds.

 

[racerjoe]

I think it is pretty safe to say Murray was not interested in moving the 10 pick, Vatanen or Theadore.

From what evidence? I don't think he was moving all three for sure, and most likely not 2, but I bet Theadore could have been had with the 24th.

Really? I was beating the "10th+" Vatanen or Theodore. Seemed like neither were even close to actually being on the table. I think Etem and two 2nds is close to where Gillis was going.

I was saying no one was saying the 10th and Vatanen. or whatever else you originally wrote, and this latest deal from Kuzma is the first we have heard about.

Rather than two firsts it simply could have been Etem, one first 1st, and one 2nd, which would be more on par with what we actually got. I think it's a huge stretch to have Murray saying the things he said at the draft only to have Benning negotiate him from Etem up to Bonino and a 2nd up to a 1st, all at the cost of Sbisa for one of the 2nds.

Personally, I don't buy this rumour from Kuzma, but I have no evidence to contradict it, and have no clue how much of an insider he is. Again I may be biast in that I do think he is terible at the other side of his job.

I also think to Ana, Bonino has the highest value for what they gave up, and that is what we were fighting for. I can't get around the Sbisa part as it really would seem Jim must have wanted it. Either way a pourly negotiated trade.

 

[dave babych returns]

Do you dispute that Gretzky has more hockey experience, knows more people in the NHL, has access to more inside information through his relationships than we do?

Might not be a fun way to argue, but people working in the league like Benning, have access to information the hockey fan will never see.

So what if Lemieux disagreed with Gretzky?

Do you look at the back of their hockey cards to see whose right or do you weight the strength of reasoning that supports each perspective?

Is every team that didn't attempt to sign Ryan Miller run by idiots?

 

[Verviticus]

Frankly, if Ducks don't win the cup (the only thing that matters) I'm having a hard time seeing how we can outright lose that trade even if McCann busts. In a couple of years time it could just be one mediocre/poor, overpaid D man for a fast declining 2-way forward who is even more overpaid.

what if they make the cup finals four years in a row? three years and a WCF? two years and two WCF?

 

[Wisp]

The point of trades isn't to "win them..." It's to get a value back for an asset.

Kesler could spend the next five years on iR & it wouldn't change the fact that Benning didn't get enough value back.

 

[Proto]

Do you dispute that Gretzky has more hockey experience, knows more people in the NHL, has access to more inside information through his relationships than we do?

Might not be a fun way to argue, but people working in the league like Benning, have access to information the hockey fan will never see.

Nope, so you must then agree the Miller signing is the best in 15 years. Or, if you don't, nobody should care -- given that experience.

Actually, come to think of it, I've been posting here a lot longer than you, so...

 

[shortshorts]

The point of trades isn't to "win them..." It's to get a value back for an asset.

Kesler could spend the next five years on iR & it wouldn't change the fact that Benning didn't get enough value back.

If Edmonton traded Gazdic for Crosby and Edmonton never wins the cup it's a wash for both teams?

That's certainly a new argument.

The trade is terrible, and always will be terrible. Especially if we see a prolonged dip in standings because of it (which we will).

An average - good Kesler trade could have had us in the positive for the foreseeable future.

 

[Wisp]

If Edmonton traded Gazdic for Crosby and Edmonton never wins the cup it's a wash for both teams?

That's certainly a new argument.

The trade is terrible, and always will be terrible. Especially if we see a prolonged dip in standings because of it (which we will).

An average - good Kesler trade could have had us in the positive for the foreseeable future.

McCann panning out would take the bitterness - And perhaps Bonino getting a good return at the deadline - but never erase it.

 

[shortshorts]

McCann panning out would take the bitterness - And perhaps Bonino getting a good return at the deadline - but never erase it.

The value of the trade was a "low percentage lotto ticket (McCann), a 2C/3C stop gap, and a defensemen who by every metric is not good".

Everything besides the lotto ticket was known to be true, and is still proving to be true.

If you traded a player the calibre of Kesler for late lotto tickets, you're going to end up short the majority of the time. I highly doubt trading each individual piece will ever amount to Kesler.

The problem I have is that the trade has entered us into a lull (I fear with the impending moves, a basement lull) for a long time. Rather than a positive boost into the standings I had envisioned.

 

[Wisp]

The value of the trade was a "low percentage lotto ticket (McCann), a 2C/3C stop gap, and a defensemen who by every metric is not good".

Everything besides the lotto ticket was known to be true, and is still proving to be true.

If you traded a player the calibre of Kesler for late lotto tickets, you're going to end up short the majority of the time. I highly doubt trading each individual piece will ever amount to Kesler.

The problem I have is that the trade has entered us into a lull (I fear with the impending moves, a basement lull) for a long time. Rather than a positive boost into the standings I had envisioned.

I think at this point - as soon as that trade went south - the faster we can get to the bottom of the standings the better.

 

[The Drop]

You were the most recent post in a series of posts on the topic. Your comment about it being "hard to imagine he'll suddenly gain what it takes over yet another year" was similar in tone to the below quote I was initially responding to. No straw man, I'm merely arguing that it's too soon to close the book on Vey.



I.. don't understand what you're saying here? Are you inferring that because there are more failures than successes, they should be entirely ignored? Does that logic sound right to you? Seriously?

Majority of your examples are players who play much different games. Essentially power or gritty games.

Not soft skilled ones like Vey

 

[The Drop]

re: talking about Vey last night and whether there's more there or whether he's done (and whether management should cut their losses). I just read an article where Vey admitted he didn't prepare properly in the Summer last year. That's both encouraging and discouraging.

Encouraging and that he may have much more to give next year and could come back a useful player.

Discouraging that they paid such a high price with someone with work ethic concerns, gave him so much opportunity, and then allegedly fired Zack Kassian out of the sun for similar transgressions.

Excellent find and absolutely laughable that his leash is so long

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

I think it is pretty safe to say Murray was not interested in moving the 10 pick, Vatanen or Theadore.

Let's assume this is true, and Anaheim was pushing the package we got. A smart GM tells them to piss off and keeps Kesler. There's a better chance Anaheim circles back when everyone around them gets better or Kesler opens up his list.

 

[The Stig]

Let's assume this is true, and Anaheim was pushing the package we got. A smart GM tells them to piss off and keeps Kesler. There's a better chance Anaheim circles back when everyone around them gets better or Kesler opens up his list.

Lets assume we keep Kesler then. Season starts. Now what?

 

[nameless1]

Lets assume we keep Kesler then. Season starts. Now what?

He scores 15 to 20 goals by mid-season, and there are a dozen teams that want him. By that point, he also probably just wants to get out of here, and Anaheim will probably ante up by then, so Benning has his choice of package to choose from.


Of course, Benning will probably choose the worst possible package, but it will probably be better than what he actually got.

 

[Verviticus]

Lets assume we keep Kesler then. Season starts. Now what?

he plays hockey