The Jim Benning and Management Megathread - CAD got you down? He has you covered

[BobbyJazzLegs]

If Linden truly believes in "you're either part of the solution or part of the problem", I fully expect to see Linden fire Benning by January.

I'd be willing to bet that doesn't happen.

They seem to live by a "our way or the highway" mantra, as evidenced by their firings of our competent staff like Gilman and Crawford. The problem is this mantra only works when their way is the right way.

i just... think you're so wrong


i wont continue with the rest of the stuff i want to say. absolute waste of breath around here.

 

[vanuck]

He's already better than Prust right now. And younger. And cheaper.

The deal was awful. There is no legitimate argument against it.

to get back on topic, yeah, confirming whether kassian is even close to a bertuzzi career path is not necessary to conclude that it was a terrible trade

fair enough if management made the decision that kassian didn't fit in the long term plans of the club, but it doesn't excuse the absolutely shocking value they received in the trade

Yeah, Kassian literally doesn't have to do a thing to improve and he's still already the better and more effective player, which just goes to show how bad this trade is since he'll likely improve a bit further going forward in MTL.

who cares about upside and being a finished product

if kassian stopped developing today he'd be at worst an inconsistent 3rd liner

if sbisa stopped developing today (or 7 years ago but who's counting) he'd still be one of the worst dmen in the nhl

This.

The point that I made was that the coach and management were so pissed off with Zack and his play and rehab efforts leading up to the deadline that had they acquired Torres or Ryan Clowe who they were trying for.....Zack was gonna be sent to Chicago for the remainder of the season.

This is hardly something you can gloss over as a young player developing. So yeah..AV does count

How is them wanting to acquire Clowe or Torres a sign that they were specifically pissed off with the guy and not just wanting to acquire more size and grit?

 

[JuniorNelson]

One of the real disappointing things about the Kassian trade was losing his playmaking. Kassian setting up Sutter might have been a lot of fun to watch.

Prust will bring some offensive upside. He is a good career-year candidate, in Desjardins' scheme. If he is able to keep other teams honest, that's key, otherwise the Canuck rooks get mashed like potatoes by the meatier teams in California.

 

[Intangibos]

One of the real disappointing things about the Kassian trade was losing his playmaking. Kassian setting up Sutter might have been a lot of fun to watch.

Prust will bring some offensive upside. He is a good career-year candidate, in Desjardins' scheme. If he is able to keep other teams honest, that's key, otherwise the Canuck rooks get mashed like potatoes by the meatier teams in California.

No he won't, and no he can't.

 

[JuniorNelson]

No he won't, and no he can't.

He had good playoffs. He might surprise people.

I doubt he has much impact as a policeman, too. The game is too fast, now. Virtanen on McDavid was a good example. The Oiler was on his butt and nothing could be done about it. His game became pretty quiet, after that.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

He had good playoffs. He might surprise people.

I doubt he has much impact as a policeman, too. The game is too fast, now. Virtanen on McDavid was a good example. The Oiler was on his butt and nothing could be done about it. His game became pretty quiet, after that.

He scored 20 goals in the past four years; just two goals in playoffs over his entire career. Last season Linden Vey scored more than double the amount Prust did. You have odds of winning the lottery than Prust providing offense.

 

[Jyrki21]

If he is able to keep other teams honest, that's key, otherwise the Canuck rooks get mashed like potatoes by the meatier teams in California.

Can someone give any real-life examples of when stuff like this happens? I think "getting pushed around" narratives are like 95% fan fiction.

 

[vanuck]

Can someone give any real-life examples of when stuff like this happens? I think "getting pushed around" narratives are like 95% fan fiction.

I don't even buy the fan/media narrative that the Canucks - as banged up as they were at the time - were pushed around by the Bruins in 2011. It's complete bull****. If anything, we were too willing to scrum it up and play their game.

 

[sting101]

Can someone give any real-life examples of when stuff like this happens? I think "getting pushed around" narratives are like 95% fan fiction.

It's not hard to look at NHL rosters and find plenty of evidence that contradicts your statement.

 

[sting101]

I don't even buy the fan/media narrative that the Canucks - as banged up as they were at the time - were pushed around by the Bruins in 2011. It's complete bull****. If anything, we were too willing to scrum it up and play their game.

Wouldn't that be an admittance that it worked.

Sounds exactly like we were thrown off our game by the Bruins willingness to engage in activities that aren't hockey. We took the bait. They won with a less skilled team.

 

[Win One Before I Die]

Can someone give any real-life examples of when stuff like this happens? I think "getting pushed around" narratives are like 95% fan fiction.

Marchand punching Sedin in the face, Thomas cross checking Sedins, Boychuk breaking Raymonds back. Ferland destroying Bieksa.

 

[Jyrki21]

Marchand punching Sedin in the face, Thomas cross checking Sedins, Boychuk breaking Raymonds back. Ferland destroying Bieksa.

I was talking specifically about "rookies needing protection" or else wilting. This just doesn't seem to be a real-life phenomenon to me.

But anyway it's not clear to me what difference having guys to "keep them honest" would have made in any of those situations. There just would have been more scrums after the fact (as there already were). Yay. That's precisely what Boston/Calgary wanted. And if stuff like Mason Raymond getting injured was an example of being "pushing around", then I guess Aaron Rome was "pushing around" the Bruins too, and yet the entire hockey universe collectively sentenced him to death for it, rather than applauding this tactical brilliance. Can you imagine Luongo cross-checking Bruin forwards or Burrows repeatedly punching Krejci after the play? They would have been penalized up the whazoo and the Canucks further vilified.

I can't imagine a world where Boston or Calgary are somehow more courteous because Brandon freaking Prust is in the lineup and might shove a guy after the play.

Wouldn't that be an admittance that it worked.

Sounds exactly like we were thrown off our game by the Bruins willingness to engage in activities that aren't hockey. We took the bait. They won with a less skilled team.

No, if anything that's a condemndation of the strategy, since engaging further was bad. All this basically amounts to is that the NHL is an idiotic league for changing its rules in the postseason and failing to discipline those who break the rules, unique to any sport that I'm aware of.

 

[sting101]

I was talking specifically about "rookies needing protection" or else wilting. This just doesn't seem to be a real-life phenomenon to me.

But anyway it's not clear to me what difference having guys to "keep them honest" would have made in any of those situations. There just would have been more scrums after the fact (as there already were). Yay. That's precisely what Boston/Calgary wanted. And if stuff like Mason Raymond getting injured was an example of being "pushing around", then I guess Aaron Rome was "pushing around" the Bruins too, and yet the entire hockey universe collectively sentenced him to death for it, rather than applauding this tactical brilliance.

I can't imagine a world where Boston or Calgary are somehow more courteous because Brandon freaking Prust is in the lineup and might shove a guy after the play.


No, if anything that's a condemndation of the strategy, since engaging further was bad. All this basically amounts to is that the NHL is an idiotic league for changing its rules in the postseason and failing to discipline those who break the rules, unique to any sport that I'm aware of.

Yes but it happens every year. I share your frustrations with the changing goal posts.

If Brandon Prust gets under the skin of a team to the point of players wanting to engage physically with him. Unless it's a worse player we win a small tactical advantage. If he can punish another teams players to the point that they turn the puck over......yet another tactical advantage. If a player thinks twice about elbowing Horvat in the head because Prust or Dorsett is standing beside him......yet another tactical advantage.

All these inches add up and in the words of Al Pacino" these inches make the difference between winning and losing"

 

[RobertKron]

Any NHL agitator or cheap shot artist has come up playing that role through significantly "wild west-er" leagues, and has been in the presence of scarier dudes than Prust or Dorsett. If I'm that guy, I'm more likely to elbow Horvat in the head if Prust is there. Horvat on his own is less likely to take a dumb penalty in response. This isn't Bantam where that one unhinged kid might actually two-hand you in the head or jump you in the parking lot.

The deterrent role only works if a) the guy is scary enough and crazy enough to really do something serious, and b) enforcement is lax enough that he'll actually do it. It worked in the NHL back when an enforcer would go jump a skill player as retribution, or spear your goalie or whatever, and it wasn't as unacceptable to keep smashing a guy even after he'd gone to the ice. Nowadays the benefit of the deterrent is pretty much entirely placebo, which is to say that it's not entirely useless, but it definitely doesn't work the way the Cherry Milbury crowd like to imagine it does.

 

[bossram]

One of the real disappointing things about the Kassian trade was losing his playmaking. Kassian setting up Sutter might have been a lot of fun to watch.

Prust will bring some offensive upside. He is a good career-year candidate, in Desjardins' scheme. If he is able to keep other teams honest, that's key, otherwise the Canuck rooks get mashed like potatoes by the meatier teams in California.

I don't know how you think Prust has offensive upside. I mean, traditionally he's been good on the PK and defensively but...how can you think this?

Tough guys don't keep other teams honest. They don't prevent violence against your players. They don't. Full stop. They go out and fight the other team's designated tough guy. Nothing more.

Putting Luke Gazdic on McDavid's wing is never going to stop teams from taking runs at him. How would Prust prevent other teams from taking runs?

Yes but it happens every year. I share your frustrations with the changing goal posts.

If Brandon Prust gets under the skin of a team to the point of players wanting to engage physically with him. Unless it's a worse player we win a small tactical advantage. If he can punish another teams players to the point that they turn the puck over......yet another tactical advantage. If a player thinks twice about elbowing Horvat in the head because Prust or Dorsett is standing beside him......yet another tactical advantage.

All these inches add up and in the words of Al Pacino" these inches make the difference between winning and losing"

I appreciate the "shift disturber" argument there. If Prust can goad other teams' better players to take penalties, it's a win. But he won't, nor will any other "tough guy", prevent other teams from taking liberties with our players. Despite Boston being so tough, that didn't stop Savard from being obliterated. This "protection" narrative does not exist.

Also, if Dorsett/Prust happen to be standing next to Horvat because they're playing on the same line together then...we've already lost. Complete waste of talent if that happens.

 

[LeftCoast]

The answer to the aggressive forecheck that Michael Ferland (and teams like Anaheim, San Jose and LA) laid on our defense last year is not to bring in a fighter to "keep them honest". What are you going to do - fight a guy for forechecking?

A better approach is to move the puck quicker. This is obviously helped by a goalie who handles the puck well (which we don't have). But a quicker defense that can retrieve the puck and move it up ice more quickly and forwards who come back to support the breakout can nullify an aggressive forecheck.

Bieksa has been a leader and a warrior for the team, but his foot speed has slowed and when pressured, he has always had a tendency to make risky passes. He was exposed by the speed and physicality of Calgary on the forecheck. Paired with Sbisa, who has the same issues, it was a disaster.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Think fighting shouldn't be in the game? Great- I'm glad you have that opinion...

But please share that opinion humbly and with respect knowing that the VAST majority of NHL players disagree with that opinion.

Thanks.

 

[Upoil]

Think fighting shouldn't be in the game? Great- I'm glad you have that opinion...

But please share that opinion humbly and with respect knowing that the VAST majority of NHL players disagree with that opinion.

Thanks.

Staged fight =/= all fighting.

 

[sting101]

Any NHL agitator or cheap shot artist has come up playing that role through significantly "wild west-er" leagues, and has been in the presence of scarier dudes than Prust or Dorsett. If I'm that guy, I'm more likely to elbow Horvat in the head if Prust is there. Horvat on his own is less likely to take a dumb penalty in response. This isn't Bantam where that one unhinged kid might actually two-hand you in the head or jump you in the parking lot.

The deterrent role only works if a) the guy is scary enough and crazy enough to really do something serious, and b) enforcement is lax enough that he'll actually do it. It worked in the NHL back when an enforcer would go jump a skill player as retribution, or spear your goalie or whatever, and it wasn't as unacceptable to keep smashing a guy even after he'd gone to the ice. Nowadays the benefit of the deterrent is pretty much entirely placebo, which is to say that it's not entirely useless, but it definitely doesn't work the way the Cherry Milbury crowd like to imagine it does.

What a hilarious notion. "You would be more likely" You either like getting punched in the face or have no regard for your health. Hopefully when you do it you fare better than Ben Eager or Adam Deadmarsh.

Because of Prust's size you think he's not scary enough??? I'm sure nobody was scared of Rypien because he was too small right. Joey Kocur, Curt fraser they didn't scare anybody. Floyd Mayweather, George St.Pierre..... not scary. Why even think about it right?

Every team that currently employs someone less skilled than the best available KHL players for their 4th lines apparently doesn't realize that the Cherry/Milbury era is over.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Staged fight =/= all fighting.

Please point to a poll where players have said this, thanks. Until then please stop acting with faux authority on the subject. Thanks.

 

[racerjoe]

The answer to the aggressive forecheck that Michael Ferland (and teams like Anaheim, San Jose and LA) laid on our defense last year is not to bring in a fighter to "keep them honest". What are you going to do - fight a guy for forechecking?

A better approach is to move the puck quicker. This is obviously helped by a goalie who handles the puck well (which we don't have). But a quicker defense that can retrieve the puck and move it up ice more quickly and forwards who come back to support the breakout can nullify an aggressive forecheck.

Bieksa has been a leader and a warrior for the team, but his foot speed has slowed and when pressured, he has always had a tendency to make risky passes. He was exposed by the speed and physicality of Calgary on the forecheck. Paired with Sbisa, who has the same issues, it was a disaster.

Not to defend bieksa, cause he was a disaster, but I really lay a much larger chunk of the blame on Sbisa. I can remember three times off the top of my head where KB had to cover. I think if KB had played with Hamhuis, he would have been fine. Where we played Sbisa with Hamhuis, and hell Hamhuis looked bad.

Totally agree with the moving the puck though, and some of that blame has to fall on coaching and the lack of adjustments. There is stuff I learned in Bantam that could have been more effective at breaking the forecheck.

 

[Upoil]

Please point to a poll where players have said this, thanks. Until then please stop acting with faux authority on the subject. Thanks.

Just pointing out you are staking out a position to defend that nobody is attacking. I wasn't talking about the players opinion.

 

[Seattle Totems]

Why is Sbisa a finished product....worthless to most of the fan base and Kassian is a young player with huge upside and value?

It is kinda funny that the only value that Zack could return after 6 months of shopping was the better part of **** all. Why can't 29 other GM's see what we see?

29 other GM's do see what most fans see. They know that Benning consistently gets taken advantage of in trades. He is too focused on his targets and he doesn't know when to keep his stupid mouth shut.

The consensus around here and in every poll is that Benning pissed away assets like crazy and lost all but maybe one trade that could be argued as "fair" this offseason. Even the Canucks lapdog media refer to it as a "bad summer". Kassian returned zilch because our GM wanted him gone. He doesn't care about getting a decent return. If Benning was reasonably intelligent, he would have held on to Kassian and built up his value, or traded him for a younger player with some upside and similar issues.

Instead he traded him for Prust an aging plug who the Canadiens probably were desperate to get rid of anyways thanks to the comments he made about NHL officials during the playoffs. Now we are stuck with a pending UFA who does not want to be here thanks to his personal situation and the Canucks lack of due diligence. He has to moved at the deadline but the idea that Benning can turn Prust into a decent asset at the trade deadline is a drug induced fantasy. Just a stupid stupid trade by a glorified head scout.

 

[LeftCoast]

Think fighting shouldn't be in the game? Great- I'm glad you have that opinion...

But please share that opinion humbly and with respect knowing that the VAST majority of NHL players disagree with that opinion.

Thanks.

I don't mind a hockey fight that spontaneously erupts in the course of play. It's damn entertaining. I don't care much for staged fights.

I also believe that fighting has absolutely no impact in deterring cheap shots or dirty play. No one has to "answer the bell" and a smaller, dirty player is rarely going to fight another team's enforcer. If a player who clearly doesn't want to fight and is over-matched and jumped by a bigger player, the linesmen very quickly intervene. This is usually followed up later in the game by a staged, goon vs goon fight. This has no deterrence factor at all.

For the same reasons, fighting has some, but much less of an intimidation factor than many claim. Quite simply, no player is ever forced to fight. Players that play "heavy" with big physical and frequent body checks have a far greater impact in terms of intimidation than fighters do. Players want to know where a Michael Ferland or Cal Cluterbuck or Alexei Emelin or Raffi Torres are on the ice. This is intimidation.

I think if you polled all NHL players and asked if the prospect of an enforcer on the other team makes them more careful about the way they play the answer would be universally and resoundingly "not a chance". Enforcers are well respected and appreciated for the job they do, the their impact on a game is virtually zero.

 

[Ho Borvat]

Think fighting shouldn't be in the game? Great- I'm glad you have that opinion...

But please share that opinion humbly and with respect knowing that the VAST majority of NHL players disagree with that opinion.

Thanks.

Whos making the argument that all fighting should be taken out of hockey? Thats really not an opinion I have seen often (if at all) on these boards.