The Jim Benning and Management Megathread - CAD got you down? He has you covered

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Intangibos

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On paper it looks like a bad offseason. This is if you think they should have got a big return on Bieksa (done), Lack (playoff fail) and Kassian (dumped). Housecleaning isn't glamorous. These guys got thrown off the team.

Of course you can look at it as losses. It's counter-productive but go ahead.

So for some reason Benning didn't like Sedin, maybe because he isn't good in scrums, and we shipped him out for a 6th, that would be fine because we were just dumping him? I mean, he's getting thrown off the team, housecleaning isn't glamorous.

Kassian being shipped out was a stupid trade, for stupid reasons, for exceedingly stupid value.

Lack outplayed Miller by a mile in the playoffs, and throughout the season, so Lack being a 'playoff fail' should be where people stop reading your post.
 

Bourne Endeavor

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This season, Corrado is a virtual lock to make the team. Baertschi and Kennins figure to be full time members. That leaves one more spot open at forward, which in all likelihood would be filled with a young guy. The core is aging, but the Canucks are integrating youth into the lineup. This is not a departure from Gillis' model for player development. Prospects develop at different paces and they aren't placed in roles that they are not ready for.

Therein lies the problem. None of this appears true. While you could potentially make a case Weber gets scratched provided Corrado shows well. Our current forward group leaves absolutely no room for youth.

Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Baertschi - Sutter - Burrows
Higgins - Horvat - Dorsett
Prust - Vey - Hansen

Who's going to get scratched here? If Vey, then we're forced to shift Prust or Higgins to playing center - a position they haven't played in over half a decade. Furthermore, that only opens one start. No one what, Virtanen or Kenins will not have a spot.
 

Intangibos

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Therein lies the problem. None of this appears true. While you could potentially make a case Weber gets scratched provided Corrado shows well. Our current forward group leaves absolutely no room for youth.

Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Baertschi - Sutter - Burrows
Higgins - Horvat - Dorsett
Prust - Vey - Hansen

Who's going to get scratched here? If Vey, then we're forced to shift Prust or Higgins to playing center - a position they haven't played in over half a decade. Furthermore, that only opens one start. No one what, Virtanen or Kenins will not have a spot.

I'm curious to see if Prust or Dorsett get scratched, if they get outplayed by Kenins/Virtanen/whoever. We saw last year that Benning gives 'his guys' a shot over Gillis guys with Kassian in the press box and Vey being spoon fed PP time with the Sedins. But if Prust or Dorsett do get scratched, then we have a ******** amount of salary in the press box, and if it's Prust we gave up Kassian to have a guy look mean in the press box.

Depressingly interesting situation that I don't at all but kind of do look forward to seeing unfold.
 

y2kcanucks

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The young guys have to be ready or you can't play them. Not much Linden can do if the preceding GM shat the bed in a bunch of drafts so we have virtually no young players to play.

Who's saying they aren't ready? A guy like Kenins for example is certainly ready yet he's likely to be the 13th forward. Virtanen is physically ready and is likely to either be the 14th forward or sent back to junior. Corrado is ready and is likely to be the 7th defenseman.

It's also difficult to stomach seeing Benning just give away some of our other young players like Kassian, Lack, Clendening essentially for free.
 

y2kcanucks

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Therein lies the problem. None of this appears true. While you could potentially make a case Weber gets scratched provided Corrado shows well. Our current forward group leaves absolutely no room for youth.

Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Baertschi - Sutter - Burrows
Higgins - Horvat - Dorsett
Prust - Vey - Hansen

Who's going to get scratched here? If Vey, then we're forced to shift Prust or Higgins to playing center - a position they haven't played in over half a decade. Furthermore, that only opens one start. No one what, Virtanen or Kenins will not have a spot.

This.

I see Horvat as a young player. Baertschi is young-ish, and so is Vey but they're both in their mid-20's.

People can buy into Benning's crap about integrating youth all they like. The fact of the matter is it isn't happening. It's just lip service and some are buying it hook, line, and sinker.
 

Intangibos

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Who's saying they aren't ready? A guy like Kenins for example is certainly ready yet he's likely to be the 13th forward. Virtanen is physically ready and is likely to either be the 14th forward or sent back to junior. Corrado is ready and is likely to be the 7th defenseman.

Corrado and Kenins were ready last year, as was Kassian (obviously). They all sat in the press box multiple times, and had fewer games played than Linden 'PP producer' Vey. Corrado I don't think looked as bad as some people said, and IMO clearly outplayed Sbisa. Also, Sanguinetti absolutely deserved a shot, but was snubbed in favor of others, though he isn't exactly young.

This management has shown they like to talk about the 'youth movement' to satisfy fans who don't know better, but it's beyond obvious that they're not making spots for the kids and they're shipping them out for 'character'.

I can't wait to see Corrado dumped like Forsling, Clendening, Kassian, and the rest of our picks that we shipped out.

Absolutely horrid management. How can a manager make the team worse, take on more salary, and get older all at the same time? I'm still shocked at the ineptitude of Lindenning. You would think you trade youth for better players now, or trade low salary guys for someone that a team can't fit under the cap. No, this team trades away our young guys on good contracts for worse players who are older on worse contracts. I can't even wrap my head around it. If Benning and Linden are canned soon, I think their reign of terror in Vancouver will be one of the worst management performances of the last decade, even worse than the Oilers.

Rough times are ahead friends, and we we might not be able to get off this train. Gillis wasn't perfect, but lets not forget he was also a relatively new GM who never even had an Assistant GM role (I don't think). He was learning the trade, and trying to surround himself with the best minds he could find. He didn't feel the need to be "the guy" like Benning has shown, he got input from those around him who he trusted and used that information to make a decision. Gilman helped him manage the cap, he demoted Delorme and promoted Crawford who has shown, in my opinion, to be a solid scout. Then Gillis listened to those guys. In my mind, a good executive doesn't just make all the decisions himself, he's just the final guy. His job is to listen to the people he hired for their expertise on the subject. Benning fired those guys because there were 'too many voices in the room'.

Gillis made mistakes, but his mistakes usually had pretty solid reasoning behind them. Yeah, Booth didn't work out, but we offloaded two nothings to get him and he looked good in his first year here before injury. How can people condemn him for this trade? 24 goals, and a 3rd round pick (Cassels) for a near retirement Samuelsson and awful Sturm. Yeah, he didn't buy out Ballard when he should have, but we don't know behind the scenes either. Did ownership block that? Maybe Gillis figured Ballard might be able to turn it around, since he had been a top 4 defender for his entire career until he arrived in Vancouver. Either way, it was excusable. Combine that with picking up Kassian for Hodgson because he knew how to increase Hodgson's value, and his usually excellent free agent signings, and we had a very competent GM. His only weak spot was drafting, which he was working on fixing, top scouts are at a premium and he can't just pick them all up. His other weak spot was clearly his people skills, but I'd rather a competent ******* than Benning whom I'm sure every GM in the league absolutely loves dealing with.

All of Gillis' mistakes can be explained reasonable, or he at least worked to fix them. Jim "Double Down" Benning does the opposite signing Vey, Sbisa and Dorsett to crazy extensions, moving Lack to keep Miller, and letting players walk for zero return while bleeding assets to pick up guys that are comparable to guys on the UFA market. The only explanation for the 5 or so Benning defenders on this board is that they've had a nervous breakdown watching these moves and are still in the 5 stages of grief, at the denial and bargaining stages. The rest of us are angry, depressed, and accepting of our fate because we live in reality. I can understand casual fans around the water cooler and on 1040 thinking these moves are good because they don't engage in intelligent (not really the right word, this is HF after all) discussion, but just hear what management tells them and buy it because Linden is their God. People who actually follow the league, understand the game, and can use statistics to supplement their knowledge should really know how awful this management group is.

This.

I see Horvat as a young player. Baertschi is young-ish, and so is Vey but they're both in their mid-20's.

People can buy into Benning's crap about integrating youth all they like. The fact of the matter is it isn't happening. It's just lip service and some are buying it hook, line, and sinker.

Yeah, we have Baertschi and Horvat in the lineup, and maybe Virtanen too. Our average age in the lineup is very slightly lower, but we also gave up Kassian and Horvat would be in the lineup anyway, not to mention he was a Gillis pick. Virtanen, while a good prospect, was 6th overall and whoever Gillis picked would be an equally good prospect. Actually, he would probably be better since Gillis reportedly liked Nylander, and I believe Gilman really liked Ehlers. Baertschi was one of the only good moves Benning made. Absolutely fleeced Calgary, IMO, because Calgary management has the same outdated thinking of Benning. How can anyone who likes the Baertschi trade for us think the Kassian trade was fine? Kassian is a better player who got a worse return than Baertschi, and were both moved because of perceived 'character' issues. ****, I would have been way happier to get a 2nd for Kassian than Brandon ****ing Prust.
 
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vanuck

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I didn't get the thread title at first... and then I did. :laugh:
 

Intangibos

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Yeah. The way fans reacted to Gillis for Tortella was so much facepalm. And how fair weather fans are now keen on Bennings trades because they don't bother looking into. I'm looking forward to seeing how they react to us bombing so hard.

My friend is bringing a sign to the home opener "When you traded Kassian, you traded me" wearing a Habs jersey with Kassian on it.

You should make sure the sign also says this is his last Canucks game, to drive the point home. Otherwise it looks kind of silly after he paid for a ticket. Like, "This is my last Canucks game, when you dumped Kassian you dumped me"
 
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Zaddy91

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By making moves to get younger. Instead they made moves to get older. Linden's theory that "it can't all be just about the young guys" suggests he's completely ignored the fact that we don't have many young guys on the team. In comparison to other teams, competitive teams, we're as veteran as they come.

Its not that we got older.

Its that we replaced guys like lack kassian richardson and matthias who will never get better

And replaced them with prust sutter, besides those two are here to do the opposite of what kassian did.

Cassels
gaunce
mccann
virtanen

All solid prospects with a chance of making it. So technically yes we got older. But by mid season or next season at the earliest were in a better position than keeping richardson and matthias

Kassian and matthias and not moving means this is a bot 6

Matthias bonino kassian
higgins richardson dorsett

To

Kenins sutter virtanen
prust cassels dorsett

You can pretend vey wont get sat as much as with richardson or matthias or kassian and you can pretend kassian is a superior player to dorsett when he isnt and never will be

I want a young team as much as you but jettisoning higgins and burrows. And not acquring prust. Then just shoving the rookies in when hansen dorsett or higgins under perform just isnt realisitc it needs to be matthias and richardson gone with higgins and prust and sutter being mentors

How the hell can matthias amdkassian be good role models when they cant even be effective with their size
 
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Intangibos

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Guys, Brandon Sutter is only 26....young player.

We traded a 27 year old to get him. Wow, the youth movement is real! 6 more trades where we lose value and we'll have a 20 year old AHLer!
(nevermind that we lost Clendening in the trade, who we traded Forsling for.)
 

Zaddy91

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Yeah. The way fans reacted to Gillis for Tortella was so much facepalm. And how fair weather fans are now keen on Bennings trades because they don't bother looking into. I'm looking forward to seeing how they react to us bombing so hard.

My friend is bringing a sign to the home opener "When you traded Kassian, you traded me" wearing a Habs jersey with Kassian on it.

God i need this season to start so the half dozen benning moves can actually be judged instead of angry mobbed
 

y2kcanucks

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Its not that we got older.

Its that we replaced guys like lack kassian richardson and matthias who will never get better

And replaced them with prust sutter, besides those two are here to do the opposite of what kassian did.

Cassels
gaunce
mccann
virtanen

All solid prospects with a chance of making it. So technically yes we got older. But by mid season or next season at the earliest were in a better position than keeping richardson and matthias

Kassian and matthias and not moving means this is a bot 6

Matthias bonino kassian
higgins richardson dorsett

To

Kenins sutter virtanen
prust cassels dorsett

You can pretend vey wont get sat as much as with richardson or matthias or kassian and you can pretend kassian is a superior player to dorsett when he isnt and never will be

Except your bottom 6 of Kenins, Sutter, Virtanen, Prust, Cassels, Dorsett won't happen. That assumes our top 6 has Sedin, Burrows, Higgins, and Vrbata on the wings. Where does Hansen play? What about Baertschi? Vey?

There is no room. And I never once said I wanted Matthias back. What I wanted to see was actually incorporating youth into the lineup:

Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Baertschi-Horvat-Vrbata
Kenins-Bonino-Burrows
Virtanen-Richardson-Hansen
Dorsett, Vey

There. You have spots for youth on every line, developing them in certain roles. Virtanen gets a low pressure task on the 4th line with some vets. Kenins gets to be part of an energy line that can score a bit. Horvat and Baertschi are put in an offensive role with a veteran sniper. Kassian gets mentored by the Sedins.

We can even keep Vey and all his uselessness as a 5th C in case Richardson goes down.

All this would take is not moving Kassian for a veteran 4th liner, re-signing Richardson, and trading Higgjns.

Instead we get:

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows (aged 34 line)
Higgins-Sutter-Vrbata
Baertschi-Horvat-Hansen
Prust-Vey-Dorsett

The only person in our top 6 who's below 32 is Sutter. This is a veteran team with very little youth incorporated, and it disgusts me.
 

y2kcanucks

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We traded a 27 year old to get him. Wow, the youth movement is real! 6 more trades where we lose value and we'll have a 20 year old AHLer!
(nevermind that we lost Clendening in the trade, who we traded Forsling for.)

Linden talks about how we had no defense prospects when Benning got here, then points to Pedan, Clendening, Subban and Brisebois.

Let's see:

Pedan: serious concussion issues, no clue if he'll ever play in the NHL.
Clendening: Traded
Subban: Gillis draft pick, was already Canuck property.
Brisebois: drafted in this year's draft after sacrificing a solid young goalie for him. At least 4-5 years away.
 

Zaddy91

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Your 2nd line is actually this

Sedins burrows
baertschi horvat vrbata
kenins sutter virtanen
prust cassels dorsett

You cant arbitrarily sit vey and put sutter on 2nd to prove your point it doesnt work that way.

Sutter was acquired to be an elite 3c on a prime contract over paid by a mil cuz canucks are rebuilding
 

Intangibos

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Sedin-Sedin-Kassian
Baertschi-Horvat-Vrbata
Kenins-Bonino-Burrows
Virtanen-Richardson-Hansen
Dorsett, Vey

Combine that with
Edler - Tanev
Hamhuis - Bieksa
Garrison - Corrado
Weber
Stanton

Lack
Hiller/Markstrom

and you have yourself a playoff team. Not a cup team, but you could make a bit of a run probably.
 

y2kcanucks

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Your 2nd line is actually this

Sedins burrows
baertschi horvat vrbata
kenins sutter virtanen
prust cassels dorsett

You cant arbitrarily sit vey and put sutter on 2nd to prove your point it doesnt work that way.

Sutter was acquired to be an elite 3c on a prime contract over paid by a mil cuz canucks are rebuilding

Who says Sutter will be a 3C? Benning has called him a foundational player.

Either way, swapping Sutter and Horvat changes nothing. It's still the same offensive group. Yet for some reason you arbitrarily sit Vey (funny how you accuse me of doing that when you do it at the same time), as well as Higgins and Hansen. :laugh:

Do you seriously believe they're going to bench Higgins and Hansen for Kenins and Virtanen?

Nothing about Sutter is elite. And who said rebuilding teams have to overpay on contract extensions? The idea that we had to overpay Sutter because we're retooling or rebuilding (which we're not, rebuilding teams don't ice veteran rosters like we are and don't trade youth for veterans) is uneducated at best.
 

Intangibos

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Linden talks about how we had no defense prospects when Benning got here, then points to Pedan, Clendening, Subban and Brisebois.

Let's see:

Pedan: serious concussion issues, no clue if he'll ever play in the NHL.
Clendening: Traded
Subban: Gillis draft pick, was already Canuck property.
Brisebois: drafted in this year's draft after sacrificing a solid young goalie for him. At least 4-5 years away.

Corrado, Tanev, Garrison, Hamhuis, Subban, Hutton, Stanton, Weber. Garrison, and Hamhuis aren't prospects but they were solid signings. Tanev is now a real player, but he was a prospect who graduated.

Really glad we have Benning here to get us Brisebois, and to pick Forsling, trade him for Clendening, and then decide he can't skate at an NHL level and trade him as well.

What's up with that, anyway? How can you acquire a player, and then a few months later say "you don't see him having NHL level skating". Did you not scout him first? What the ****, guys.

Pedan actually looks pretty interesting, if he can stay healthy. The trade looked **** at first but he seemed to take a step forward. Concussions are a major problem though and he got knocked the **** out last season.
 

Zaddy91

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Combine that with
Edler - Tanev
Hamhuis - Bieksa
Garrison - Corrado
Weber
Stanton

Lack
Hiller/Markstrom

and you have yourself a playoff team. Not a cup team, but you could make a bit of a run probably.

Higgins in top 6 kassian in top 6 bieksa still on team.

Wow. Iam starting to disagree so much
 

Zaddy91

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Who says Sutter will be a 3C? Benning has called him a foundational player.

Either way, swapping Sutter and Horvat changes nothing. It's still the same offensive group. Yet for some reason you arbitrarily sit Vey (funny how you accuse me of doing that when you do it at the same time), as well as Higgins and Hansen. :laugh:

Do you seriously believe they're going to bench Higgins and Hansen for Kenins and Virtanen?

Nothing about Sutter is elite. And who said rebuilding teams have to overpay on contract extensions? The idea that we had to overpay Sutter because we're retooling or rebuilding (which we're not, rebuilding teams don't ice veteran rosters like we are and don't trade youth for veterans) is uneducated at best.

How can u possibly believe they wouldnt.

Kenins and horvat replaced kassian with ease. Replaced richardson with ease. Matthias with ease.

And now ur sayig higgins and hansen wont be replaced.

No sense to say that when theyve been integrating youth and mainting the vets that can play a style of game that should be copied. Higgins and hansen were a lower prio to get out of here than richardson and matthias

These same fears were the only tjing in the horvat discussion

Let the young players earn their role inatead of making am akward situation out of repacing a guy in his prime like matthias who frankly is a terrible player to teach anyone how to play physical


Get them off the team(kassian matthias)

Having kassian woth the twins was a nice pipe dream. When hes scoring 30 in mtl ill admit benning needs to go.
 

y2kcanucks

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How can u possibly believe they wouldnt.

Kenins and horvat replaced kassian with ease. Replaced richardson with ease. Matthias with ease.

And now ur sayig higgins and hansen wont be replaced.

No sense to say that when theyve been integrating youth and mainting the vets that can play a style of game that should be copied. Higgins and hansen were a lower prio to get out of here than richardson and matthias

These same fears were the only tjing in the horvat discussion

Let the young players earn their role inatead of making am akward situation out of repacing a guy in his prime like matthias who frankly is a terrible player to teach anyone how to play physical


Get them off the team(kassian matthias)

Having kassian woth the twins was a nice pipe dream. When hes scoring 30 in mtl ill admit benning needs to go.

I have absolutely no idea what you were saying in this post.

Kenins and Horvat replaced Kassian, Richardson, Matthias with ease. What are you trying to say?

What does mainting the vets mean?

And I don't get how you are surprised that I don't see the Canucks relegating Higgins and Hansen to the press box. Firstly, they're better players than Prust and Dorsett so from that perspective it's a stupid move. Secondly, it's just so nonsensical to think the Canucks will regularly healthy scratch two middle 6 veteran players for rookies who will likely be inconsistent. It's not going to happen, and it's mindboggling that people even think that will happen.
 

Intangibos

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He lives in a world where our prospects all pan out to their maximum potential. It's just not even worth engaging in conversation anymore.
 

Zaddy91

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I have absolutely no idea what you were saying in this post.

Kenins and Horvat replaced Kassian, Richardson, Matthias with ease. What are you trying to say?

What does mainting the vets mean?

And I don't get how you are surprised that I don't see the Canucks relegating Higgins and Hansen to the press box. Firstly, they're better players than Prust and Dorsett so from that perspective it's a stupid move. Secondly, it's just so nonsensical to think the Canucks will regularly healthy scratch two middle 6 veteran players for rookies who will likely be inconsistent. It's not going to happen, and it's mindboggling that people even think that will happen.

Injuries happen, having rookies as your 13th forward isn't a bad thing.

You're simply wrong to say Higgins and Hansen can and won't be replaced by Virtanen if he is dominant
 

Zaddy91

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He lives in a world where our prospects all pan out to their maximum potential. It's just not even worth engaging in conversation anymore.

Not really I've already written off Shinkaruk, Jensen, Kassian, and Pedan.

That's pretty unfair.
 

brokenhole

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Injuries happen, having rookies as your 13th forward isn't a bad thing.

You're simply wrong to say Higgins and Hansen can and won't be replaced by Virtanen if he is dominant
There is a very real possibility that Virtanen goes back to junior, he is still very raw at the NHL level. There is also a possibility that Horvat goes through a sophomore slump, did you ever think that might happen in your world view.
 
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