Rumor: The Habs would have acquired Franson for Gorges

[OneSharpMarble]

This place is like a broken record. Amazes me how horrible players are that the Habs go after in trade. Weise was an AHL scrub....Franson is a complete pylon even though he's a half decent skater, Halpern was a washed up bum, we wasted a fifth round pick picking up another mini dman in Weaver....it goes on and on.

Seems like the majority are both an expert pro and amateur scout around here...you'd swear some spend 20 hours a day breaking down video on every CHL, NHL and AHL player...not to mention Europe. You are dynamos. Even Sekac...apparently there are experts on his pro future on here as well. Amazing stuff. Why does MB bother with pro scouting...just come on here and get the gospel. A couple of posters completely denigrate a player, and the sheep follow.

Am I to believe that a whole bunch of you watched all the Leaf games, and know their players inside out? I never watch the Leafs unless they're playing the Habs personally, so I'm not about to make emphatic statements on Franson...I've never sat back and focused on scouting Franson in an NHL game, let alone dozens of them...apparently piles of Hab HF posters have though. They didn't watch the play when the Leafs and Habs played...they watched Franson.

Some pundits who I respect very highly think Franson has been underutilized in Toronto, and that he may still be a solid NHL dman defensively given the right situation. No offence..but I'll take the opinions of MB, Dudley, Carriere and others over fans who have never scouted the guy.....ever! Rranson was pretty solid defensively in the WHL by the end of his junior career..sometimes it takes a few years for a dman to properly adjust to the NHL level of play..it's not an easy task.

People also can't seem to grasp that neither Gilbert or Franson would have been expected to replace Gorges in all defensive situations....they were both sought to improve the power play moreso than to be defensive stalwarts...that gets lost as well.


Fans see a couple of highlights where Franson gets beat badly on a goal and they presume he's a complete pylon, or they go to a Leaf message board and listen to the negative hyperbole spouted by fans who pay no closer attention to individual play than these guy do. I would imagine there are fans on other teams that feel the same way about Markov and Emelin when all they see are highlights.....most of the time these players aren't getting beat like rented mules...but pretty much every NHL dman gets beat on occasion, and it gets seen in highlights...they are facing the most talented players in the world.

But the hyperbole on here....that a second round pick is infinitely better than a 6-3 NHL dman with power play abilities that is a good skater.....do people not ever take into consideration that more than 60 per cent of second round players never become NHL regulars...unlike Franson?

Gorges for a younger, bigger, better skating Franson at half the salary would not have been a horrific trade...hate to break it to you.

If it prevents another "Gomez Fiasco" Timmins come hangout and shoot the **** all day. I am pretty damn sure someone would have set them straight in about 5 seconds flat. Oh **** no scouts here, sorry guys leave it to the pros!

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I find it difficult to believe that with all of the good people Montreal have in their management team, the could possibly have been dumb enough to go after Cody Franson.

He doesn't use his size at all, can't skate worth a damn and has a ten cent head.

It's truly impossible to believe that the management team would have preferred turning Josh Gorges into Cody Franson to what they actually did which was get a 2nd rounder and Tom Gilbert.

I would certainly hope that isn't the case. I mean, we don't know how the trade could have fleshed out with picks or whatever, or what kind of salary/contract would have been thrown Franson's way, but Gilbert > Franson. Gilbert plus a pick >> Franson. Agree with the specific red flags you've mentioned regarding his play, btw. I mean, you've overstated the truth imo (let's say he can skate half a damn, and has a 15 cent head, lol), but those are definitely his limitations - on top of being completely unable to fill any part of the veteran/leadership void left by Gorges. Don't think it necessarily would have been a horrible deal, but I'm glad it fell through.

 

[groovejuice]

If it prevents another "Gomez Fiasco" Timmins come hangout and shoot the **** all day. I am pretty damn sure someone would have set them straight in about 5 seconds flat. Oh **** no scouts here, sorry guys leave it to the pros!

That's real Sharp, marble.

 

[Whitesnake]

So if it would have happened, I would not have liked that. Yet, I don't think Franson is THAT bad. But it would not have been that great of a trade.

One thing though.....can people just realize that we were actually "lucky" to know what would have been the trade? How many non-trades do we know that didn't happen so that we could bash this or that GM? Clearly, we know a few trades that Gainey would have done that would have been bad for this team (Lecavalier, Kovalev...), but to those guys defense, there are obviously tons of other non-deals because 1 side said no, or somethign else happen, that if we would know about it, we'd crucify every GM in this league....Add on top the deals that are done that were pretty good because of "add-ons" that was implicated in trades that GM didn't know too much about and frankly, luck plays a bigger part than people would like to think it does.

 

[Agnostic]

So if it would have happened, I would not have liked that. Yet, I don't think Franson is THAT bad. But it would not have been that great of a trade.

One thing though.....can people just realize that we were actually "lucky" to know what would have been the trade? How many non-trades do we know that didn't happen so that we could bash this or that GM? Clearly, we know a few trades that Gainey would have done that would have been bad for this team (Lecavalier, Kovalev...), but to those guys defense, there are obviously tons of other non-deals because 1 side said no, or somethign else happen, that if we would know about it, we'd crucify every GM in this league....Add on top the deals that are done that were pretty good because of "add-ons" that was implicated in trades that GM didn't know too much about and frankly, luck plays a bigger part than people would like to think it does.

We don't know all details either. One thing MB seems good at doing is getting the extra draft pick thrown in with a player, and the Leafs always throw in draft picks with their deals.

So, could have been Franson+ we don't know.

 

[Whitesnake]

We don't know all details either. One thing MB seems good at doing is getting the extra draft pick thrown in with a player, and the Leafs always throw in draft picks with their deals.

So, could have been Franson+ we don't know.

Wouldn't be surprised that it would have indeed be Franson + 2nd in 2016. Which would evidently be BETTER than the Sabres/Wild's 2nd.

 

[DAChampion]

How is Franson better than Gilbert?

 

[Scintillating10]

This place is like a broken record. Amazes me how horrible players are that the Habs go after in trade. Weise was an AHL scrub....Franson is a complete pylon even though he's a half decent skater, Halpern was a washed up bum, we wasted a fifth round pick picking up another mini dman in Weaver....it goes on and on.

Seems like the majority are both an expert pro and amateur scout around here...you'd swear some spend 20 hours a day breaking down video on every CHL, NHL and AHL player...not to mention Europe. You are dynamos. Even Sekac...apparently there are experts on his pro future on here as well. Amazing stuff. Why does MB bother with pro scouting...just come on here and get the gospel. A couple of posters completely denigrate a player, and the sheep follow.

Am I to believe that a whole bunch of you watched all the Leaf games, and know their players inside out? I never watch the Leafs unless they're playing the Habs personally, so I'm not about to make emphatic statements on Franson...I've never sat back and focused on scouting Franson in an NHL game, let alone dozens of them...apparently piles of Hab HF posters have though. They didn't watch the play when the Leafs and Habs played...they watched Franson.

Some pundits who I respect very highly think Franson has been underutilized in Toronto, and that he may still be a solid NHL dman defensively given the right situation. No offence..but I'll take the opinions of MB, Dudley, Carriere and others over fans who have never scouted the guy.....ever! Rranson was pretty solid defensively in the WHL by the end of his junior career..sometimes it takes a few years for a dman to properly adjust to the NHL level of play..it's not an easy task.

People also can't seem to grasp that neither Gilbert or Franson would have been expected to replace Gorges in all defensive situations....they were both sought to improve the power play moreso than to be defensive stalwarts...that gets lost as well.


Fans see a couple of highlights where Franson gets beat badly on a goal and they presume he's a complete pylon, or they go to a Leaf message board and listen to the negative hyperbole spouted by fans who pay no closer attention to individual play than these guy do. I would imagine there are fans on other teams that feel the same way about Markov and Emelin when all they see are highlights.....most of the time these players aren't getting beat like rented mules...but pretty much every NHL dman gets beat on occasion, and it gets seen in highlights...they are facing the most talented players in the world.

But the hyperbole on here....that a second round pick is infinitely better than a 6-3 NHL dman with power play abilities that is a good skater.....do people not ever take into consideration that more than 60 per cent of second round players never become NHL regulars...unlike Franson?

Gorges for a younger, bigger, better skating Franson at half the salary would not have been a horrific trade...hate to break it to you.

lol...they complained more on signing the Brieres or Cubes than the Halperns, Weavers or Weiss'. Habs brass have a depth of experienced posters. Fans who have passion for the game, guys who seen the genius of a Pollock to unfortunately, the mistakes of a Houle or Gauthier. Not saying they are greater than his scouts, but a good third opinion on players.

 

[Deluded Puck]

I Prefer Gilbert + the 2nd > Franson and any potential add-ons tbh

Gilbert 51.7% Corsi

Franson 44.9%

Smart or lucky, this is the better move.

We needed to get faster on D after getting torched by NYR, have better exits out of the zone, somebody who could replace Gorges ability to eat big minutes and help on the 2nd wave of a PP, especially double minors and majors which to me at least, we absolutely sucked at converting.

Gilbert is certainly the better option over Franson for some of these things (especially speed), and no worse in other areas (2nd wave PP)

 

[Blind Gardien]

How is Franson better than Gilbert?

Well, Franson *is* better than Gilbert. But it's just that Franson isn't what we need either. At least with Gilbert you have a 2-year commitment at a known price, and he basically has "band-aid" stamped on his forehead from the get-go. They're not completely dissimilar, but Franson is better with the puck, shoots better, and has at least had a few spurts of being better physically in the past.

My main issue with the Franson/Gorges switch is that it would have set us up with another low-IQ and inconsistent blueliner, and since he's RFA and the Habs' brass seems to like him for some reason, he probably gets set up with an Emelin-like deal. I don't want to have a commitment to "the wrong player" in that spot. I'd rather have the known band-aid + the 2nd + future flexibility.

 

[rockjngo]

2016 is not a high end skill like 2015 draft year but its speculated that it's a deep year. From 20-50 is similar skills. If the pick is an early second, its like a late first round pick.

 

[FerrisRox]

Well, Franson *is* better than Gilbert. But it's just that Franson isn't what we need either. At least with Gilbert you have a 2-year commitment at a known price, and he basically has "band-aid" stamped on his forehead from the get-go. They're not completely dissimilar, but Franson is better with the puck, shoots better, and has at least had a few spurts of being better physically in the past.

My main issue with the Franson/Gorges switch is that it would have set us up with another low-IQ and inconsistent blueliner, and since he's RFA and the Habs' brass seems to like him for some reason, he probably gets set up with an Emelin-like deal. I don't want to have a commitment to "the wrong player" in that spot. I'd rather have the known band-aid + the 2nd + future flexibility.

Franson unquestionably has a better shot, but in every other regard, in terms of skill set, Gilbert is better.

The main issue with Franson is that he doesn't take advantage of things like his immense size and his heavy point shot. His foot speed, acceleration and first pass are all below average, making him a strange contradiction in that he's got a shot that should allow him to rack up some points via goals and rebounds, but he's an offensive defenseman who can't skate the puck out of his zone and can't pass the puck effectively out of his zone so he's only useful on the PP and with an offensive zone start. You say he is better with the puck than Gilbert is. I couldn't disagree more.

Franson's skating and speed isn't just bad, it's detrimental. He also has a horrible hockey IQ. He often panics with the puck and makes puzzling and sometimes inexplicable choices with the puck in terms of passing it to no one, icing it, or making maddening passes through traffic that are prone for pick offs. You talk about his physicality, but that is the most frustrating part of his game. Despite his size and his strength, he is extremely easy to play against and very rarely gets engaged physically at all.

 

[Habs 4 Life]

2016 is not a high end skill like 2015 draft year but its speculated that it's a deep year. From 20-50 is similar skills. If the pick is an early second, its like a late first round pick.

The pick can always be traded, used for use to move up in 2015

And the pick I think is the Wild's one, so mid to late 40's if we are to keep it

 

[hototogisu]

Franson unquestionably has a better shot, but in every other regard, in terms of skill set, Gilbert is better.

The main issue with Franson is that he doesn't take advantage of things like his immense size and his heavy point shot. His foot speed, acceleration and first pass are all below average, making him a strange contradiction in that he's got a shot that should allow him to rack up some points via goals and rebounds, but he's an offensive defenseman who can't skate the puck out of his zone and can't pass the puck effectively out of his zone so he's only useful on the PP and with an offensive zone start. You say he is better with the puck than Gilbert is. I couldn't disagree more.

Franson's skating and speed isn't just bad, it's detrimental. He also has a horrible hockey IQ. He often panics with the puck and makes puzzling and sometimes inexplicable choices with the puck in terms of passing it to no one, icing it, or making maddening passes through traffic that are prone for pick offs. You talk about his physicality, but that is the most frustrating part of his game. Despite his size and his strength, he is extremely easy to play against and very rarely gets engaged physically at all.

Good post.

After reading this thread, I'm convinced Franson is only highly thought of by people who don't watch him play. The guy is a marginally better, bigger Marc-Andre Bergeron.

 

[Tim Wallach]

Gilbert 51.7% Corsi

Franson 44.9%

In fairness, the Leafs only have the puck 6% of the game, so this actually might make Franson awesome.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Is there any source that says it was the Wild's pick in 2016 we got? Everything I've read just says "a 2016 2nd round pick" without mention of who's it is.

 

[AH]

Good post.

After reading this thread, I'm convinced Franson is only highly thought of by people who don't watch him play. The guy is a marginally better, bigger Marc-Andre Bergeron.

I always said he was just a taller DIAZ. Although Diaz was never that bad defensively.

 

[hototogisu]

Is there any source that says it was the Wild's pick in 2016 we got? Everything I've read just says "a 2016 2nd round pick" without mention of who's it is.

http://sabres.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=724804

The team acquired defenseman Josh Gorges from the Montreal Canadiens in exchange for Minnesota’s second-round pick in the 2016 NHL Entry Draft. The pick was previously acquired with forward Torrey Mitchell and a 2014 second-round pick at this year’s trade deadline from Minnesota for Matt Moulson and Cody McCormick.

 

[Analyzer*]

Good post.

After reading this thread, I'm convinced Franson is only highly thought of by people who don't watch him play. The guy is a marginally better, bigger Marc-Andre Bergeron.

Franson is actually quite physical. It's just if you're somewhat strong, or close to his size he's not very effective.

 

[JAVO16]

Franson unquestionably has a better shot, but in every other regard, in terms of skill set, Gilbert is better.

The main issue with Franson is that he doesn't take advantage of things like his immense size and his heavy point shot. His foot speed, acceleration and first pass are all below average, making him a strange contradiction in that he's got a shot that should allow him to rack up some points via goals and rebounds, but he's an offensive defenseman who can't skate the puck out of his zone and can't pass the puck effectively out of his zone so he's only useful on the PP and with an offensive zone start. You say he is better with the puck than Gilbert is. I couldn't disagree more.

Franson's skating and speed isn't just bad, it's detrimental. He also has a horrible hockey IQ. He often panics with the puck and makes puzzling and sometimes inexplicable choices with the puck in terms of passing it to no one, icing it, or making maddening passes through traffic that are prone for pick offs. You talk about his physicality, but that is the most frustrating part of his game. Despite his size and his strength, he is extremely easy to play against and very rarely gets engaged physically at all.

Nice description of Franson.

 

[Mercury10]

Franson unquestionably has a better shot, but in every other regard, in terms of skill set, Gilbert is better.

The main issue with Franson is that he doesn't take advantage of things like his immense size and his heavy point shot. His foot speed, acceleration and first pass are all below average, making him a strange contradiction in that he's got a shot that should allow him to rack up some points via goals and rebounds, but he's an offensive defenseman who can't skate the puck out of his zone and can't pass the puck effectively out of his zone so he's only useful on the PP and with an offensive zone start. You say he is better with the puck than Gilbert is. I couldn't disagree more.

Franson's skating and speed isn't just bad, it's detrimental. He also has a horrible hockey IQ. He often panics with the puck and makes puzzling and sometimes inexplicable choices with the puck in terms of passing it to no one, icing it, or making maddening passes through traffic that are prone for pick offs. You talk about his physicality, but that is the most frustrating part of his game. Despite his size and his strength, he is extremely easy to play against and very rarely gets engaged physically at all.

I always said he was just a taller DIAZ. Although Diaz was never that bad defensively.

Nice description of Franson.

Horrible description of Franson! If you guys don't like the trade, thats one thing, but don't make stuff up.

1) He does take advantage of his size. He wins puck battles with it. He doesn't lay people on their a$$es and get caught out of position like Phaneuf.
2)His foot speed is slow. His skating is not. I'd wager he and Markov are roughly the same speed.
3)His first pass is an asset. He's not 'awesome' in his own zone but a lot of times he doesn't have to be because he gets the puck and moves it before getting trapped.
4)His IQ is above avg. He makes plays that are unexpected and not easily predicted by opposition AND his own teammates. Thus looking like horrible giveaways sometimes.

Lets look at some other interesting things.

1)In 2006 with the Van Giants he came in 2nd for the Bill Hunter Memorial Trophy as the league's top defenceman (awarded to Kris Russell of the Medicine Hat Tigers)
2)Won Memorial Cup in 2007
3)He toiled in the Preds system for 5 years competing with Weber, Suter, Klein, Blum and Sulzer, all were similar in ages. (within 4 years aprox)
4)He got better every year and in his last year in the playoffs when the Preds were down in an elimination game they rolled with 4D for the last 10min of 3rd period. Weber/Suter and Franson/Blum(or Klein). He looked great that year in playoffs. A young, big Dman on the rise.
THEN, da-da-daaaa.
5) He gets traded to the Leafs
6) Gets under utilized by Wilson, gets in his bad books, has contract troubles with Burke
7) Wilson out and Carlyle in. Things get marginaly better for Franson. He out performs Phaneuf in most categories including points in spite of playing 30% less minutes.

He still hasn't reached his potential and seems like his growth is thrown off the rails ever since he joined the Leafs. He has to cover for an awful lot of questionable players making questionable decisions in a questionable system. I have watched Cody since he was with the Giants. I used to live in Sicamous and played hockey with his Dad. There are a lot of us that have watched his growth stunted in TO.

I personally wanted to see him with the Habs so I could actually cheer for his team for once (since the Giants). But just on his upside alone I was disappointed the Habs didn't acquire him for Gorges. Gorges is who he is and will never be more. He will never be a 6'5" puck moving Dman that can man the PP and 3 years younger.
If the Habs draft a 6'5" puck moving Dman with that 2nd rd pick, will he have better odds of being top 4 than Cody? I think the odds would be less.

 

[FerrisRox]

Horrible description of Franson! If you guys don't like the trade, thats one thing, but don't make stuff up.

I'm making stuff up? I've watched him play about 100 games in the last three years. Well over half of those live. I've got a pretty good read on him. Let's see what you're take is...

1) He does take advantage of his size. He wins puck battles with it. He doesn't lay people on their a$$es and get caught out of position like Phaneuf.

Well, you open with a piece of fiction. If this was remotely true, he'd be playing a helluva a lot more for the Leafs. He almost never uses his size, which, other then his skating issues, is his biggest shortcoming. It's not so much that he doesn't win puck battles... It's worse then that, he very rarely engages in them.

2)His foot speed is slow. His skating is not. I'd wager he and Markov are roughly the same speed.

His foot speed is slow but his skating is not? What the hell does that mean? He's slow. That's not an opinion, it's a simple fact. You would only need to watch him for a few minutes to figure that one out.

3)His first pass is an asset. He's not 'awesome' in his own zone but a lot of times he doesn't have to be because he gets the puck and moves it before getting trapped.

His first pass is far from an asset. It's an issue. He often moves the puck before deciding where it should go, or determining if the lane he is using is safe. More often than not, he just moves it quickly, to nobody, or to the opposition, or down the ice. He panics the moment the puck is on his stick behind his own blue line. He can't be counted on to make a smart play or a safe play.

4)His IQ is above avg. He makes plays that are unexpected and not easily predicted by opposition AND his own teammates. Thus looking like horrible giveaways sometimes.

Huh? You're praising his "unpredictability" that causes his own teammates to not know what he's going to do with the puck? You think that's a good thing? You say that "looks like horrible giveaways." Let me clear this up for you: They don't look like horrible giveaways *they are horrible giveaways.* A defenseman that makes plays that are unexpected and not easily predicted isn't a good thing, particularly when the result is the puck being given to the opposition or simply surrendered because he's not smart enough to find an open man or make an outlet pass.

The rest I just erased ... It seems like you're arguing *against* his value. I mean, saying that he was the runner up to Kris Russell, a journeyman defender barely hanging on to his NHL job isn't helping your cause. You claim that he had a breakout year in Nashville right before the Preds dumped him in a nothing trade for Matthew Lombardi. Here's a spoiler alert for the summer, the Leafs will dump him as well this summer. If he was even remotely the player you are suggesting, I assure you, the Leafs, with their lousy D-core, would be holding on to him and using him in their top 4 for years to come. But he's not that player. Not by a long shot.

I get that you were likely a big fan of him in his WHL days, but those days are long gone. He's an NHLer now, and not a very good one. He just hasn't put all the pieces together nor has he delivered on his potential. The Habs side-stepped a land mine here.

 

[Habsawce]

I like Franson and think he has a lot of talent that just isn't being utilized with the right partner. Playing with Markov could have done wonders for him but I'm also happy with Gilbert on the team.

Really it came down to needing a RHD with some size to compliment the PMD LHD on the team. Either fit the bill.

 

[Mercury10]

Ok then, thanks for your opinion Ferris.

I will stand by my opinion that:
1) Franson has been mishandled by the Leafs.
2) He has more upside than Gilbert
3) He has more upside than Min 2nd rd pick in 2016.

 

[Blind Gardien]

I think I agree with the worst descriptions of Franson here, in general, just maybe not quite in degree. Anyway, he'll be 27 and if he has upside, a couple organizations haven't been able to dig it out yet, but there are enough overpaid defensemen in the NHL that he probably gets paid pretty well, and I don't want him at $3-4M. If we didn't have Beaulieu and Nygren coming up, say, and he was on the market for $2M or under, I could still see patching him in on a "show me" style deal.

But as it is, I just wouldn't want him for the Habs, I continue to be surprised that the Habs' brass thought they saw a fit there. A lot of times he gets overrated by casual fans for "tallness", but I don't really understand how pro scouts would view him as a desirable acquisition and core contract signing thereafter. I still kinda don't believe the rumour, actually.