The Great One vs Super Mario

[Chrisgo]

This is kinda interesting...

From 1981 to 1987 the Oilers scored 2,486 goals and Gretzky was in on 49% of them.

From 1986-1992 the Penguins scored 1,966 goals and Lemieux was in on 39% of them.

*Both had Paul Coffey playing defense for them.

Yes, but as you know Lemieux played far fewer games than Gretzky.. so not directly comparable.

Fact is though, After 86/87 when Gretzky was 26/27 he did not beat Lemieux in the scoring race when Lemieux was "healthy" (played at least 60 games)

 

[Bert Marshall days]

Interesting analysis. I guess Mario only won 2 cups because he felt like stopping himself the rest of the time? If Gretzky was so much easier to shut down, how did he set 61 NHL records (60 of which still stand), and beat all of Lemieux numbers? But wait, he had a stacked team.

It wasn't very stacked his first season, when he had 137 pts and tied for the scoring lead. Messier had 12 goals that year, Gretzky broke 50. The Oilers were 16th out of 21 teams. Hardly stacked. Second season he broke records for assists and points in a single season. Messier had less than 25 goals. Kuri still wasn't in the league yet. Oilers were 14th out of 21 teams, and didn't secure a playoff spot until the final day of the season. Again, hardly a stacked team.

3rd season... breaks 200 points (212 to be specific), breaks his own record for points and assists, as well as getting 50 goals in 39 games and 92 on the season, to shatter basically every record there as well. Kuri plays his first year with the Oilers, getting 85 points (yes, less points than Gretzky has goals). Coffee is 2nd in team scoring with 105 points, meaning he's 107 back of Gretzky. So yes, Gretzky has more than double the points of the next best player on his team. The next year he "only" managed 196 points, before breaking 200 for 3 straight seasons. He averaged over 200 pts a year for 6 years, Mario never broke 200 even once.

Obviously though it was because he had better teammates! Gretzky must have been leeching off them, and they just carried him to 60 NHL records. /sarcasm off.

p.s. Jagr was better than anyone Gretzky ever had as a regular winger.

Gretzky played with little competition in the West.

 

[wildthing202]

Pre-NHL, Olympic, & Post career I'd say Lemieux.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Gretzky played with little competition in the West.

Its been statistically shown that Gretzky scored roughly equal against the Wales conference as he did against the Campbell conference.

This argument does not hold water

 

[lextune]

I wish I could find the link, but I've seen a break down of Gretz' points per building before. It was quite fascinating.

 

[Cawz]

Gretzky played with little competition in the West.

Thats weak. He went through all that trouble to post a well thought-out rebuttal, and thats all you can come up with? What a cop out.

 

[Starchild74]

I can't believe people still try to debate who is better Gretzky or Lemieux. First in some ways it is pointless to even argue those that say it is Gretzky probably saw him play and therefore know how great of a player that he was. Most who pick Lemieux only pick Lemieux based on what could have been or might have been.

Forget about stats as Gretzky wins hands down

Forget about highlights because most of Gretzkys best plays are not available because their was not much tv back then. When Gretzky was playing in Hartford on a Wednesday night their was no television coverage of the game or very minimal coverage and if he did something amazing only the ones in the audience witnessed it.

Better Team Forget it. Both played with one of the best defenceman's in the history of the NHL in Paul Coffey and Mario did play with another pretty good offensively defenceman in Larry Murphy. Mario also played with guys like Stevens,Tocchet,Recchi,Francis and Jagr Now to say he did not have anyone to play with is so stupid. When he was getting all his points he was playing with pretty good players and when he was in his prime Pittsbourgh was truly almost an unstoppable force just like Gretzky when he was with Edmonton. Both made those players better and both were helped by those players but to say that one or the other had better players to play with is stupid. Francis was Pittsbourgh's Messier so to speak. Jagr was just like Kurri so to speak. Stevens was just like Anderson so to speak and of course both played with Coffey, and Robitaille.

The idea it was easier to score in the 80's to the 90's is true to a degree. I mean in the 90's goalies had bigger equipment but if it was so much eaiser to score back then then how come their weren't more 92 goal scorers in the NHL. Oh wait that is because you need skill to do that. Mike Bossy was by far the best pure goal scorer in the NHL in the last 30 years for sure and he could not even get that much. Why? because even though the game looked or is seemed to have been more wide open games were still ending at 2-1 at times. It was the Oilers and a few other teams that were playing wide open hockey. Most were playing very conservative thier might not have been a trap but their was a system in place. I mean even in the 80's Montreal was tight defensively and won alot of their games 3-1 or 4-2 not the 9-7 like some belive. It has become a myth that hockey was so wide open in the 80's that is the only reason to explain Gretzky's 92 goals

Gretzky never got hit yet Mario was pounded or took and gave hits. Ya right no one ever hit Gretzky come on that is all anyone ever says. First off yes Lemieux hit and was hit but look at his size. If Mario was skating full speed it would be hard to knock him off the puck he was pretty big and even just gliding Mario could knock a few guys off their feet with his strength. Gretzky on the other had could skate as fast as he could and jump in the air and Theo Fleury probably would not have fallen down. I remember many of times Gretzky got hit and even remember Gretzky giving a few hits. Now his were more of a rub out along the boards where he would just get in the way of an opposing player and either stop the play or make the person turn or cough up the puck. That is just as good at times as delievering that big hit. Oh and I am sure I can remember almost everyone from the Islanders hitting Gretzky and the Flames as well. Because when they would hit him they were villainized in the papers for running Gretzky. People did take runs at Gretzky but their was one thing. If you hit Gretzky you paid a price. That is what it was like back then. If you hit Mike Bossy you paid a price. If you hit Marcel Dionne you paid a price. Players governed themselves on the ice. Is it Edmonton's fault they had the toughest player in Semenko and one of the biggest and hardest hitter in Messier NO but do not say that Gretzky was never hit that is a myth.


Mario Lemieux was a great player and should be considered maybe the second best Center ever in the NHL. I say maybe because I think their might be an argument for a guy by the name of Marcel Dionne. I do not think anyone should be compared to Gretzky only one other player was as gifted as him and that was Orr who I never had the previledge of seeing but from what I have seen of him he too possessed that one thing that only certain players like him have. That sixth sense of knowing what to do and where to do it and how to get it done. They see the ice like no other and that is scary because unless you can see the ice like them then really how can you talk about their skill.

Mario has the physical skill their is no question there and if you want to talk about physical skill then Lemieux wins hands down. Lemieux was a better skater, He had a harder shot, better shot, was bigger, He was a faster skater, He was a better stick handler, Lemieux was also truly a better pure goal scorer for he was always about shoot first pass second. The only true hockey skill Greatzky had that was better then Lemieux was passing and playmaking he was the better at that. But Physical skill alone does not make one great. I mean for example one of the greatest skilled players to ever play the game is Alexei Kovalev but look at his career it is filled with what could have been if he just showed up every game.

So here is my question if Lemeiux was bigger,stronger,faster,more gifted,a pure goal scorer and better shooter then Gretzky. How did Gretzky do what he did? The answer is simple he is the Great One. No one asks Superman how he does what he does. So do not ask who is better or argue why Lemieux is better Gretzky's skill is without a doubt a mystery but never the less he did it all with a lousy shot. a slow skater, not very big and for the most part with only his vision of the ice but he did do it. For that reason alone Gretzky is truly the Greatest ever because in order to do what he did with the physical attributes he had then that truly means he was by far the greates ever.

So you can come up with any argument you want to say Lemieux is better or just talk about what could have been in one year or a career or say let's throw out all the stats and achievments lets just talk about physical skill. That is subjective because even though I said Lemieux is gifted naturally with his physical attributes other are better skaters and others have better and harder shots. Some score better then him. Let's just talk about the players and forget about anything else.

Wayne Gretzky is the Great One and the only player in the history of the NHL that can come close to being equal to him or even better is Bobby Orr that is it. No one else can compare to them. It is like saying the top 100 players of all time are

1. Bobby Orr/ Wayne Gretzky
100. next best player (Put your favourite player here____)

 

[wildthing202]

I can't believe people still try to debate who is better Gretzky or Lemieux. First in some ways it is pointless to even argue those that say it is Gretzky probably saw him play and therefore know how great of a player that he was. Most who pick Lemieux only pick Lemieux based on what could have been or might have been.

Forget about stats as Gretzky wins hands down

Forget about highlights because most of Gretzkys best plays are not available because their was not much tv back then. When Gretzky was playing in Hartford on a Wednesday night their was no television coverage of the game or very minimal coverage and if he did something amazing only the ones in the audience witnessed it.

Better Team Forget it. Both played with one of the best defenceman's in the history of the NHL in Paul Coffey and Mario did play with another pretty good offensively defenceman in Larry Murphy. Mario also played with guys like Stevens,Tocchet,Recchi,Francis and Jagr Now to say he did not have anyone to play with is so stupid. When he was getting all his points he was playing with pretty good players and when he was in his prime Pittsbourgh was truly almost an unstoppable force just like Gretzky when he was with Edmonton. Both made those players better and both were helped by those players but to say that one or the other had better players to play with is stupid. Francis was Pittsbourgh's Messier so to speak. Jagr was just like Kurri so to speak. Stevens was just like Anderson so to speak and of course both played with Coffey, and Robitaille.

The idea it was easier to score in the 80's to the 90's is true to a degree. I mean in the 90's goalies had bigger equipment but if it was so much eaiser to score back then then how come their weren't more 92 goal scorers in the NHL. Oh wait that is because you need skill to do that. Mike Bossy was by far the best pure goal scorer in the NHL in the last 30 years for sure and he could not even get that much. Why? because even though the game looked or is seemed to have been more wide open games were still ending at 2-1 at times. It was the Oilers and a few other teams that were playing wide open hockey. Most were playing very conservative thier might not have been a trap but their was a system in place. I mean even in the 80's Montreal was tight defensively and won alot of their games 3-1 or 4-2 not the 9-7 like some belive. It has become a myth that hockey was so wide open in the 80's that is the only reason to explain Gretzky's 92 goals

Gretzky never got hit yet Mario was pounded or took and gave hits. Ya right no one ever hit Gretzky come on that is all anyone ever says. First off yes Lemieux hit and was hit but look at his size. If Mario was skating full speed it would be hard to knock him off the puck he was pretty big and even just gliding Mario could knock a few guys off their feet with his strength. Gretzky on the other had could skate as fast as he could and jump in the air and Theo Fleury probably would not have fallen down. I remember many of times Gretzky got hit and even remember Gretzky giving a few hits. Now his were more of a rub out along the boards where he would just get in the way of an opposing player and either stop the play or make the person turn or cough up the puck. That is just as good at times as delievering that big hit. Oh and I am sure I can remember almost everyone from the Islanders hitting Gretzky and the Flames as well. Because when they would hit him they were villainized in the papers for running Gretzky. People did take runs at Gretzky but their was one thing. If you hit Gretzky you paid a price. That is what it was like back then. If you hit Mike Bossy you paid a price. If you hit Marcel Dionne you paid a price. Players governed themselves on the ice. Is it Edmonton's fault they had the toughest player in Semenko and one of the biggest and hardest hitter in Messier NO but do not say that Gretzky was never hit that is a myth.


Mario Lemieux was a great player and should be considered maybe the second best Center ever in the NHL. I say maybe because I think their might be an argument for a guy by the name of Marcel Dionne. I do not think anyone should be compared to Gretzky only one other player was as gifted as him and that was Orr who I never had the previledge of seeing but from what I have seen of him he too possessed that one thing that only certain players like him have. That sixth sense of knowing what to do and where to do it and how to get it done. They see the ice like no other and that is scary because unless you can see the ice like them then really how can you talk about their skill.

Mario has the physical skill their is no question there and if you want to talk about physical skill then Lemieux wins hands down. Lemieux was a better skater, He had a harder shot, better shot, was bigger, He was a faster skater, He was a better stick handler, Lemieux was also truly a better pure goal scorer for he was always about shoot first pass second. The only true hockey skill Greatzky had that was better then Lemieux was passing and playmaking he was the better at that. But Physical skill alone does not make one great. I mean for example one of the greatest skilled players to ever play the game is Alexei Kovalev but look at his career it is filled with what could have been if he just showed up every game.

So here is my question if Lemeiux was bigger,stronger,faster,more gifted,a pure goal scorer and better shooter then Gretzky. How did Gretzky do what he did? The answer is simple he is the Great One. No one asks Superman how he does what he does. So do not ask who is better or argue why Lemieux is better Gretzky's skill is without a doubt a mystery but never the less he did it all with a lousy shot. a slow skater, not very big and for the most part with only his vision of the ice but he did do it. For that reason alone Gretzky is truly the Greatest ever because in order to do what he did with the physical attributes he had then that truly means he was by far the greates ever.

So you can come up with any argument you want to say Lemieux is better or just talk about what could have been in one year or a career or say let's throw out all the stats and achievments lets just talk about physical skill. That is subjective because even though I said Lemieux is gifted naturally with his physical attributes other are better skaters and others have better and harder shots. Some score better then him. Let's just talk about the players and forget about anything else.

Wayne Gretzky is the Great One and the only player in the history of the NHL that can come close to being equal to him or even better is Bobby Orr that is it. No one else can compare to them. It is like saying the top 100 players of all time are

1. Bobby Orr/ Wayne Gretzky
100. next best player (Put your favourite player here____)

Lemieux had an injured back since 1986 not to mention cancer, just look at their pre-NHL days, not sure of the quality of the leagues but the stats heavily favor Lemieux.

Gretzky pre-WHA/NHL
75-76 28 GP 60 pts
76-77 35 GP 75 pts
77-78 64 GP 182 pts

Lemieux pre-NHL
80-81 47 GP 124 pts
81-82 64 GP 96 pts
82-83 66 GP 184 pts
83-84 70 GP 282 pts

 

[lextune]

You are bringing up pre-NHL stats? lol....

....O.K. how about this one:

Gretzky was getting national attention as a ten year old (playing against 14 and 15 year old's), when he score 378 goals and 120 assists in just 85 games with the Brantford Steelers.

 

[seventieslord]

I can't believe people still try to debate who is better Gretzky or Lemieux. First in some ways it is pointless to even argue those that say it is Gretzky probably saw him play and therefore know how great of a player that he was. Most who pick Lemieux only pick Lemieux based on what could have been or might have been.

Forget about stats as Gretzky wins hands down

Forget about highlights because most of Gretzkys best plays are not available because their was not much tv back then. When Gretzky was playing in Hartford on a Wednesday night their was no television coverage of the game or very minimal coverage and if he did something amazing only the ones in the audience witnessed it.

Better Team Forget it. Both played with one of the best defenceman's in the history of the NHL in Paul Coffey and Mario did play with another pretty good offensively defenceman in Larry Murphy. Mario also played with guys like Stevens,Tocchet,Recchi,Francis and Jagr Now to say he did not have anyone to play with is so stupid. When he was getting all his points he was playing with pretty good players and when he was in his prime Pittsbourgh was truly almost an unstoppable force just like Gretzky when he was with Edmonton. Both made those players better and both were helped by those players but to say that one or the other had better players to play with is stupid. Francis was Pittsbourgh's Messier so to speak. Jagr was just like Kurri so to speak. Stevens was just like Anderson so to speak and of course both played with Coffey, and Robitaille.

The idea it was easier to score in the 80's to the 90's is true to a degree. I mean in the 90's goalies had bigger equipment but if it was so much eaiser to score back then then how come their weren't more 92 goal scorers in the NHL. Oh wait that is because you need skill to do that. Mike Bossy was by far the best pure goal scorer in the NHL in the last 30 years for sure and he could not even get that much. Why? because even though the game looked or is seemed to have been more wide open games were still ending at 2-1 at times. It was the Oilers and a few other teams that were playing wide open hockey. Most were playing very conservative thier might not have been a trap but their was a system in place. I mean even in the 80's Montreal was tight defensively and won alot of their games 3-1 or 4-2 not the 9-7 like some belive. It has become a myth that hockey was so wide open in the 80's that is the only reason to explain Gretzky's 92 goals

Gretzky never got hit yet Mario was pounded or took and gave hits. Ya right no one ever hit Gretzky come on that is all anyone ever says. First off yes Lemieux hit and was hit but look at his size. If Mario was skating full speed it would be hard to knock him off the puck he was pretty big and even just gliding Mario could knock a few guys off their feet with his strength. Gretzky on the other had could skate as fast as he could and jump in the air and Theo Fleury probably would not have fallen down. I remember many of times Gretzky got hit and even remember Gretzky giving a few hits. Now his were more of a rub out along the boards where he would just get in the way of an opposing player and either stop the play or make the person turn or cough up the puck. That is just as good at times as delievering that big hit. Oh and I am sure I can remember almost everyone from the Islanders hitting Gretzky and the Flames as well. Because when they would hit him they were villainized in the papers for running Gretzky. People did take runs at Gretzky but their was one thing. If you hit Gretzky you paid a price. That is what it was like back then. If you hit Mike Bossy you paid a price. If you hit Marcel Dionne you paid a price. Players governed themselves on the ice. Is it Edmonton's fault they had the toughest player in Semenko and one of the biggest and hardest hitter in Messier NO but do not say that Gretzky was never hit that is a myth.


Mario Lemieux was a great player and should be considered maybe the second best Center ever in the NHL. I say maybe because I think their might be an argument for a guy by the name of Marcel Dionne. I do not think anyone should be compared to Gretzky only one other player was as gifted as him and that was Orr who I never had the previledge of seeing but from what I have seen of him he too possessed that one thing that only certain players like him have. That sixth sense of knowing what to do and where to do it and how to get it done. They see the ice like no other and that is scary because unless you can see the ice like them then really how can you talk about their skill.

Mario has the physical skill their is no question there and if you want to talk about physical skill then Lemieux wins hands down. Lemieux was a better skater, He had a harder shot, better shot, was bigger, He was a faster skater, He was a better stick handler, Lemieux was also truly a better pure goal scorer for he was always about shoot first pass second. The only true hockey skill Greatzky had that was better then Lemieux was passing and playmaking he was the better at that. But Physical skill alone does not make one great. I mean for example one of the greatest skilled players to ever play the game is Alexei Kovalev but look at his career it is filled with what could have been if he just showed up every game.

So here is my question if Lemeiux was bigger,stronger,faster,more gifted,a pure goal scorer and better shooter then Gretzky. How did Gretzky do what he did? The answer is simple he is the Great One. No one asks Superman how he does what he does. So do not ask who is better or argue why Lemieux is better Gretzky's skill is without a doubt a mystery but never the less he did it all with a lousy shot. a slow skater, not very big and for the most part with only his vision of the ice but he did do it. For that reason alone Gretzky is truly the Greatest ever because in order to do what he did with the physical attributes he had then that truly means he was by far the greates ever.

So you can come up with any argument you want to say Lemieux is better or just talk about what could have been in one year or a career or say let's throw out all the stats and achievments lets just talk about physical skill. That is subjective because even though I said Lemieux is gifted naturally with his physical attributes other are better skaters and others have better and harder shots. Some score better then him. Let's just talk about the players and forget about anything else.

Wayne Gretzky is the Great One and the only player in the history of the NHL that can come close to being equal to him or even better is Bobby Orr that is it. No one else can compare to them. It is like saying the top 100 players of all time are

1. Bobby Orr/ Wayne Gretzky
100. next best player (Put your favourite player here____)

Nice post. Just one thing. There's no "argument" for Marcel Dionne over Mario Lemieux. There's not really an argument for any center over Lemieux, but if there was, that center would be Jean Beliveau.

 

[crossicepass]

I can't believe people still try to debate who is better Gretzky or Lemieux.

...followed by the longest post in the thread
Just pickin', I enjoyed it!

"Mario was the most complete player I've ever seen."
-Scotty Bowman

Now I don't know jack compared to Scotty Bowman but personally I wouldn't want to pick from Gretz, Mario and Orr even if it's Scotty Bowman providing the referral.
I saw all of them play -which dates me- and it became a sequential debate as their respective careers unfolded.
You watched Orr and thought he was the greatest player ever. Then, Wayne, and it was 'Cripes, he might be greater than Orr! Along comes Mario, and eventually he deserved to be factored into that discussion. Now along comes Ovechkin with the potential to be included as well.

I'm reminded of a SNL skit from many years ago where Dana Carvey and Billy Crystal played these two youngguys who had died before their time. They were sitting in heaven's waiting room where St. Peter informs them that God is a busy man and they'll get to ask him but one question before they're admitted into heaven.
After a lengthy debate they finally come up with one they can both agree upon.
'Beatles or the Stones?' (pertinent question in those days)
God says....'Beatles'
Crystal says to Carvey 'see, see I told you so!'

For me, that would be the only way to answer this Gretz/Mario question...and I got to throw Orr in there too.

Still love reading folks' opinions tho'

 

[Preisst*]

Nice post. Just one thing. There's no "argument" for Marcel Dionne over Mario Lemieux. There's not really an argument for any center over Lemieux, but if there was, that center would be Jean Beliveau.

There was this centre by the name of Gretzky who could at least provide an argument which counters this post.

 

[Preisst*]

There have been some excellent posts in this thread. Some very well thought out logical and realistic points. There have also been some posts which could be called asinine, at best.

Gretzky was the Great One. Lemieux was Magnificent. Their nicknames say a lot.

In my opinion Gretzky was the smartest player there ever was. One thing that hasn't been mentioned enough, IMO, is how he was the best passer there ever was [at least of the ppull I've seen play at the NHL level]. He also had a 'knack' for scoring goals.

Lemieux was probably the best guy one on one or on a breakaway that I've ever seen. He was a goal scorer extraordinaire and an excellent passer as well. But his passing was no where near Gretzkys level. Gretzkys goal scoring was closer to Lemieux's than Lemiuex's passing was to Gretzky's.

The vision that Gretzky had was incomparable. His peripheral must be so good he can see behind himself while looking straight ahead.

Lemiuex may have scored more highlight reel goals, so what.

Actually the more one looks at straight reality and pure accomplishments a very large edge goes to the Great One. I feel sorry for the true hockey fans who didn't get a chance to watch him, the Kid was the Greatest.

 

[shazariahl]

I think some people don't really understand just how great Gretzky's playmaking was. In all of hockey history, only 3 players have had 100+ assist seasons. They are: Bobby Orr (102), Mario Lemieux (114), and Wayne Gretzky (11 straight seasons in a row, incl a record 163). Think about that - only 3 people have ever done it, the other two once each. And these are usually the 2 others people choose as the greatest players of all time. Gretzky hit this mark 11 times in a row, including several years with the kings.

Lemieux's 114 ties Gretzky's 8th best season for assists. Gretzky also had seasons (3 I believe) where his assist totals alone would have won him the scoring race. One can't simply say "it was the high scoring 80's" when his assists alone were higher than anyone else's point totals.

The real crazy thing is... what were him teammates doing that he was getting 100+ assists, and yet they had barely half his point totals (or often less - the year he had 212 points, Coffey was 2nd in team scoring with 105 points).

Lemieux may have been a better goal scorer - that question may forever be debated - but no one was ever on Gretzky's level when it came to playmaking ability.

 

[seventieslord]

There was this centre by the name of Gretzky who could at least provide an argument which counters this post.

There have been some excellent posts in this thread. Some very well thought out logical and realistic points. There have also been some posts which could be called asinine, at best.

Gretzky was the Great One. Lemieux was Magnificent. Their nicknames say a lot.

In my opinion Gretzky was the smartest player there ever was. One thing that hasn't been mentioned enough, IMO, is how he was the best passer there ever was [at least of the ppull I've seen play at the NHL level]. He also had a 'knack' for scoring goals.

Lemieux was probably the best guy one on one or on a breakaway that I've ever seen. He was a goal scorer extraordinaire and an excellent passer as well. But his passing was no where near Gretzkys level. Gretzkys goal scoring was closer to Lemieux's than Lemiuex's passing was to Gretzky's.

The vision that Gretzky had was incomparable. His peripheral must be so good he can see behind himself while looking straight ahead.

Lemiuex may have scored more highlight reel goals, so what.

Actually the more one looks at straight reality and pure accomplishments a very large edge goes to the Great One. I feel sorry for the true hockey fans who didn't get a chance to watch him, the Kid was the Greatest.

I'm sorry Preisst, I get the impression that you misunderstood me. In no way, shape or form do I think Lemieux is better than Gretzky. To me, Gretzky even wins the "single game" comparison.

It should be obvious that my post meant to say "aside from Wayne Gretzky..."