Blue Jays Discussion: The Good-bye Loup Version

[canucksfan]

To you, not to me. It was a pointless endeavour because in my opinion, I really didn't think they had a good enough team to go all the way at the time. Of course, in hindsight, time has proven me 100% correct. They won nothing. It was a waste of assets by not keeping what they had and trading off to replenish the system. They could have been competing this year with a young club had they done the smart move and cashed in their aging chips instead of going all in.

The words you fail to understand is I am talking about "AT THE TIME", which back then those prospects were legitimate, and had value. Now yes, in hindsight, a lot have fallen by the wayside, mostly to injury. But that prospect value was completely squandered, and now there is absolutely nothing to show for either the players they acquired, or the prospects they traded. Playoffs, whoopie!!! Then out.

Please. There is no way they are competing in 2020. None. Zero. What, all the rookies they will have to field in 2020 will suddenly play like seasoned vets? That's a completely ridiculous assumption. Do they have enough top end talent right now in the system to field a competitive team that soon? Hell no. Jansen wont play much until 2020 because of Martin, and he needs his bat to play up because his D and arm aren't elite. Plus two mid/back of the rotation starters. These are not the messiahs leading them to the promised land in 2020. Laughable. Basically little actually outside of Vladdy.

I now understand what you mean by at the time regarding prospects. My bad.

In 2015 they had a team that could have won the WS. They were the best team in the second half. If Goins didn't miss play that ball they likely go back to Toronto 1-1. KC got very lucky that series.

Should say compete for a playoff spot. Jays would have to get lucky to compete in 2020 but some of pieces will be there. Team salary will be lower than it is now and I can see them being active in the off-season after the 2019 season.

 

[canucksfan]

 

[kb]

I now understand what you mean by at the time regarding prospects. My bad.

In 2015 they had a team that could have won the WS. They were the best team in the second half. If Goins didn't miss play that ball they likely go back to Toronto 1-1. KC got very lucky that series.

Should say compete for a playoff spot. Jays would have to get lucky to compete in 2020 but some of pieces will be there. Team salary will be lower than it is now and I can see them being active in the off-season after the 2019 season.

Honestly, as much as I was pulling for them, I wasn't blind to the weaknesses. Which was small ball and lack of contact as times. So I felt they weren't a WS team, and were long in the tooth. I mean, yes....was it exciting? Sure.

They will need luck and then some. Right now there are some good up and coming teams that will remain good that they will have to leapfrog. They can essentially hope for no better than the second wild card seed for the next half decade at least with the Yanks and BoSox being young and good.

 

[phillipmike]

3 homers for Steve Pearce

Solo shot, 3 run homer and a 2 run shot. A grand slam away from the home run cycle.

14-5 Boston after the Yankees took a 4-0 lead.

 

[kb]

3 homers for Steve Pearce

Solo shot, 3 run homer and a 2 run shot. A grand slam away from the home run cycle.

14-5 Boston after the Yankees took a 4-0 lead.

Would that be the first "home run cycle" in history I wonder?

 

[phillipmike]

Would that be the first "home run cycle" in history I wonder?

Hasn't happened in the Majors before but happened in the Minors.

Home run - Wikipedia

Many have come close before. Both EE and A-Rod were a solo shot away. Scooter Gennett hit a grand slam, a solo and two 2-run shots. Too bad one of those 2 run shots didn't have another run on.

 

[Skin Tape Session]

Does anyone watch over 130 regular season games even when the Jays suck?

There's so many games and it takes up so much time, I can't imagine investing all that time into a crap team.

I like watching baseball, but not that much.

I've probably watched about 25 games so far this year, and will likely only make sure to watch most of the games when Borucki starts from here on out, and otherwise just tune in when I've nothing else to do.

I average about 100 games a season, i go to about 20 in person. Its a commitment for sure. My nana used to watch every single one and tape the games on after 10 like tonight. She went to spring trIning and everything. She was a warrior.

 

[Skin Tape Session]

Clippard has a weird body. His head is too small for his body. He has a weird bum, its a girls bum

 

[trellaine201]

Short torso. Long legs. And gives up HRs.

 

[IceColdBear]

On the weekends I do.
Saturday I like to DVR and watch in the evening while grilling.
Sunday I prefer to listen to the radio broadcast on the mlb app if I’m mowing the yards.

I’ll watch the Blue Jays games whenever I can, ideally I’d watch all 162.

It’s baseball, I don’t care how bad the team is, I will watch them.

I average about 100 games a season, i go to about 20 in person. Its a commitment for sure. My nana used to watch every single one and tape the games on after 10 like tonight. She went to spring trIning and everything. She was a warrior.

Interesting, baseball is tied for my 2nd/3rd favourite sport (after hockey, and I would watch about 60 to 70 leaf games when they sucked), and I don't personally know any die hard Jays fans. I probably watch the most baseball of any of my friends/family who are more than an acquaintance.

I would also say that while I like baseball, I am more of a Jays fan than a baseball fan if that makes sense.

A bad baseball season just seems like so much more of a slog than a bad hockey season, which is why I think there's a lot more band wagoners in baseball than most other sports.

 

[Skin Tape Session]

Interesting, baseball is tied for my 2nd/3rd favourite sport (after hockey, and I would watch about 60 to 70 leaf games when they sucked), and I don't personally know any die hard Jays fans. I probably watch the most baseball of any of my friends/family who are more than an acquaintance.

I would also say that while I like baseball, I am more of a Jays fan than a baseball fan if that makes sense.

A bad baseball season just seems like so much more of a slog than a bad hockey season, which is why I think there's a lot more band wagoners in baseball than most other sports.

I have aspergers so baseball is a source of comfort for me. I like reading about baseball, i just like everything about it. I sleep with a glove on my bed ànd toss a hard ball up in the air to relax before sleep.

I know a lot of hockey fans that will watch a bit of jays here and there. I would say im a baseball fan first and my team is the jays because of where i was born. If i was from boston id be die hard sox etc etc.

A bad jays season can be long but there are so many little narratives inna season that there is always something to get into imo.

 

[Judas Tavares]

That's pretty hyperbolic. AA was here while we had Vlad, during a competitive window and didn't trade him despite teams demanding him.

I agree here. Vlad is the top prospect in baseball, the other prospects were good, but they weren't the top.

If you have an aging core, trade for aging players, and don't win, then yes. It was all a waste. And I know how much luck and timing plays into winning a championship. But a playoff appearance or 2 pales in the shadow of trying to build a sustainable winner for the long term.

The thing here is, baseball is different than hockey in this situation. In the NHL prospects turn out all the time and half the league makes the playoffs.

Its not that easy in the MLB. My first Jays memories are from 1995 so I grew up with no playoffs. In fact I came to not only expect missing the playoffs, but it just became a "they just may never make it" situation. And I was actually accepting of it, which is sad. When they finally made it in 2015, it didn't sink in until I sat in my seat in Game 1, cause the Jays just don't make the playoffs.

You have a team that is very good with an incredible run differential.

For once in 20 years, the Yanks and Red Sox are BOTH in mini down swings.

I'm sorry, but with all that in mind, you go for it. This isn't the NHL with parity and rewards for when you stink. This is a league where the big boys rule and you may get your chance as runt of the litter once every 20 years. We are one of the runts along with teams like KC, SD etc... You don't get a shot every year like the big boys.

Flags fly forever, BA top prospects lists don't.

 

[Nineteen67]

Interesting, baseball is tied for my 2nd/3rd favourite sport (after hockey, and I would watch about 60 to 70 leaf games when they sucked), and I don't personally know any die hard Jays fans. I probably watch the most baseball of any of my friends/family who are more than an acquaintance.

I would also say that while I like baseball, I am more of a Jays fan than a baseball fan if that makes sense.

A bad baseball season just seems like so much more of a slog than a bad hockey season, which is why I think there's a lot more band wagoners in baseball than most other sports.

Other than going to a few live games I only watch Jays games. Playoffs included. Can’t remember the last WS game I’ve watched

With the Leafs looking like they’ll at least be interesting for the next few years the Jays will be able to slide under the radar during their rebuild. As long as they don’t do anything too ridiculous no one will know they’re in town

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Once again for the record im not blaming AA, im blaming Brian Parker for the unacceptable gap. 2 players out of 121 is ridiculously bad.

Agreed. The narrative of the barren farm system due to trades is not fully accurate. The farm became barren due to bad drafting for 2 years. You can blame AA for hiring Parker, but I don't see a lot wrong with trading prospects like Norris and Hoffman, who we had clearly soured on, outside of who else we could have gotten in return.

 

[Forgotusername]

Honestly, as much as I was pulling for them, I wasn't blind to the weaknesses. Which was small ball and lack of contact as times. So I felt they weren't a WS team, and were long in the tooth. I mean, yes....was it exciting? Sure

They will need luck and then some. Right now there are some good up and coming teams that will remain good that they will have to leapfrog. They can essentially hope for no better than the second wild card seed for the next half decade at least with the Yanks and BoSox being young and good.

You think them not playing small ball was one of the reasons they lost to KC?

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

To be fair, AA did leave a few pieces at the lower levels. When AA left I believe the farm system was ranked 24th. I didn't know until reading the last few pages that the drafting was that bad from 2013-2015. That's the hole he left along with trading some prospects. Aging declining core with no young players to come up.

Borucki, Reid-Foley, Murphy, Alford, Jansen, Davis, Tellez, Romano.

Not saying he's responsible for any of those specific players, but if we're going to be sticklers they were acquired under his watch.

 

[The Nemesis]

Question I've always been curious about:

Does the actual, physical Jays store in Rogers Centre sell player T-Shirts for the whole roster? Because if you go online to the Jays Shop, you can only get a handful of prominent players (Stroman, Sanchez, Donaldson, Estrada, Morales, Tulo, Travis, Pillar, Martin) but I know I've seen other guys (I'm pretty sure at one point I've seen a Jason Grilli shirt and that was never available online)

So like is it possible to get, say, a Grichuk or Gurriel player T at the stadium? Or are the oddball shirts something special or knockoffs or whatnot?

 

[The Nemesis]

Cliff Floyd appears to be a fan of Jamie's terrible music puns.

This makes me like him less.

Also yes, I know this thread needs to be refreshed since it's over 1k. I'll get to it in the morning. Not the least of reasons being that selfishly I want my question about player Ts to be seen and hopefully answered before I make the switch.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Some good lines on the farm tonight:

LF Otto Lopez 2-5 2r 1rbi .313
C Hagen Danner 2-3 2r 1bb .296
C Alejandro Kirk 2-7 1r 1hr 1rbi 1bb .331
CF Dom Abbadessa 3-7 2r 2rbi 1bb .338
2B Rafael Lantigua 4-5 3r 3rbi 2bb .365

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Best catcher prospect? Not currently, not by a mile. And at the time AA left? Check the numbers. LMAO!

Alford...looking more like a reserve/platoon outfielder who can't field, and 2 mid/bottom of the rotation starters. Yep, sounds legit.

Just curious, does that also mean Shapiro doesn't get credit for Jose Ramirez who had only had 1hr and a .763ops in AAA and .631ops in the MLB when he left since he hadn't yet broken out?

I'm almost getting the sense that you'd be happy for these guys to fail to validate your pathological hatred of the previous front office.

 

[kb]

The thing here is, baseball is different than hockey in this situation. In the NHL prospects turn out all the time and half the league makes the playoffs.

Its not that easy in the MLB. My first Jays memories are from 1995 so I grew up with no playoffs. In fact I came to not only expect missing the playoffs, but it just became a "they just may never make it" situation. And I was actually accepting of it, which is sad. When they finally made it in 2015, it didn't sink in until I sat in my seat in Game 1, cause the Jays just don't make the playoffs.

You have a team that is very good with an incredible run differential.

For once in 20 years, the Yanks and Red Sox are BOTH in mini down swings.

I'm sorry, but with all that in mind, you go for it. This isn't the NHL with parity and rewards for when you stink. This is a league where the big boys rule and you may get your chance as runt of the litter once every 20 years. We are one of the runts along with teams like KC, SD etc... You don't get a shot every year like the big boys.

Flags fly forever, BA top prospects lists don't.

That's fine. I said it was exciting. But then do it the right way. Not by bringing in old, broken, or old and broken players Extend the window as long as you can by getting controllable talent so if things go sideways like they did, all is not lost.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[Nineteen67]

I bet Yankees and Red Sox fans would like to eliminate the 2nd wildcard, at least for now.

Since 2013 the Jays, Rays and Orioles play the Yankees and Red Sox 19 times each year, not 18.

 

[kb]

Borucki, Reid-Foley, Murphy, Alford, Jansen, Davis, Tellez, Romano.

Not saying he's responsible for any of those specific players, but if we're going to be sticklers they were acquired under his watch.

Very few of which will have any real impact at the major league level.

 

[Eyedea]

Very few of which will have any real impact at the major league level.

Even if 2-4 make an impact that’s a success. The fact that they’re succeeding in close proximity to the bigs is a plus.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

SRF and Borucki mid-rotation guys if health warrants. Murphy has a chance to be a #5 starter. Jansen will be a first division starting catcher, if health warrants. Alford\Davis\Tellez are lottery tickets that have graduated past Double-A, while Romano is a lottery ticket in Double-A.

That's a pretty good group of assets, regardless of who acquired them. Its disingenuous to really think otherwise.

The two extreme sides of the argument have engaged in an intellectually dishonest discussion. There's very clear positives to both front offices, and very clear negatives as well.