Blue Jays Discussion: The Good-bye Loup Version

[Skin Tape Session]

I agree here. Vlad is the top prospect in baseball, the other prospects were good, but they weren't the top.



The thing here is, baseball is different than hockey in this situation. In the NHL prospects turn out all the time and half the league makes the playoffs.

Its not that easy in the MLB. My first Jays memories are from 1995 so I grew up with no playoffs. In fact I came to not only expect missing the playoffs, but it just became a "they just may never make it" situation. And I was actually accepting of it, which is sad. When they finally made it in 2015, it didn't sink in until I sat in my seat in Game 1, cause the Jays just don't make the playoffs.

You have a team that is very good with an incredible run differential.

For once in 20 years, the Yanks and Red Sox are BOTH in mini down swings.

I'm sorry, but with all that in mind, you go for it. This isn't the NHL with parity and rewards for when you stink. This is a league where the big boys rule and you may get your chance as runt of the litter once every 20 years. We are one of the runts along with teams like KC, SD etc... You don't get a shot every year like the big boys.

Flags fly forever, BA top prospects lists don't.

That kind of hit me in tne feels. I grew up going to the cne and watching barfield and ernke and stieb. We expected to male the playoffs. I remember losing in the alcs a few times and being pissed when tony and fred were traded.

1992/1993 were the happiest time of my sports life so far. We had a gm who went out and got the players we needed. I remember the first ricky hendersen game and how awesome it was we had him. Same as cone and stewart and the others. Our owners and gm got it done. It was all about winning.

I also remember feeling bad for expos fans as we beat them to it.that was great baseball. Im sorry you missed that man.

 

[kb]

I love when the amateur stat "experts" that use stats as reference proof to support their bias but they can't agree on which stat is appropriate.

Lets just settle on Win/Loss as the measuring stick for pitchers.

Saves FTW.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Sure, but I am giving Jansen his props as an AA draft. Contrary to popular belief, I am simply playing devil's advocate. Truth be told, they both have their failings. I just don't think that one should be put on a pedestal for failing to win anything, and spending most prospect capital on players who were old, broken, and had no control - except for the old and broken ones. Nothing to show for it. I loved AAs ballsiness even as I disagreed with it. But let's not kid ourselves, he left this organization old, broken, and with a bottom 5 prospect pool.

Who puts AA on a pedestal outside of zeke? I just think much of the hatred is over-the-top and disproportionate to the reality.

In fact, the only time any one brings up AA in this thread is when you or sticky trash him, followed by zeke white-knighting, and the rest of us trying to come up with a somewhat more moderate take.

 

[Bluelines]

Saves FTW.

Uh its all you need to know about a closer.... and ..uhhhh...if he has a history of punching himself ... that's probably a red flag...

 

[zeke]

I'm glad you see your side finally.

As I said, I am not anti AA. I thought he did a pretty good job overall except for his Dickey, Miami, and to a lesser extent - Colorado - trades. Getting not one single decent younger controllable assets back in any of those 3 trades that is a farce. He made good trades like the steal for Donaldson.

But the disingenuous one is the one who puts AA on a pedestal and takes potshots at nearly every move that is made today.

this argument started with a silly, fake criticism of AA. I pointed out that it was silly and fake.

then you started in with a wave of bullshit.

 

[Bluelines]

Who puts AA on a pedestal outside of zeke? I just think much of the hatred is over-the-top and disproportionate to the reality.

In fact, the only time any one brings up AA in this thread is when you or sticky trash him, followed by zeke white-knighting, and the rest of us trying to come up with a somewhat more moderate take.

I like AA, I think he is talented but I also think he made those moves to save his own job or get Shapiro's job before Shapiro got it. I get it that we made the playoffs but anyone who has a slightest experience with baseball could see neither of those teams were built to win the WS,they were simply too one dimensional.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Thanks. Makes sense.

Personally I want to know how many outs were made by K, weak contact and hard contact.

Same with hits allowed

Perfectly acceptable. Evaluating pitching is profoundly nuanced, and far less rudimentary than evaluating position players.

 

[hockeywiz542]

5. Blue Jays

Preseason rank: 9

Top 100 Prospects (5): 3B Vladimir Guerrero Jr. (No. 1), SS/2B Bo Bichette (No. 9), C Danny Jansen (No. 73), RHP Nate Pearson (No. 90), OF Anthony Alford (No. 92)

Prospect points: 240 (7th)

Guerrero is the best prospect in baseball and Bichette isn't far off. While those sons of former big league stars hog most of the spotlight in the Jays system, there's also plenty of promising pitchers such as Pearson and RHPs Eric Pardinho, Sean Reid-Foley and recent trade acquisition Hector Perez. 3B/SS Jordan Groshans and RHP Adam Kloffenstein, teammates at Magnolia (Texas) High, highlight a strong 2018 Draft.

 

[Leafin]

I wanted AA to stay but it seems as though our drafting has improved since Shapiro took over. I'm 100% on board with that. Groshans looking like another good one.

3b Groshans - SS Bichette - 2b Biggio - 1b Guerrero Jr

Looks good to me.

 

[zeke]

fWAR is FIP based, bWAR is ERA based. Think of RA9-WAR as FG’s equivalent to the bWAR stat.

not exactly - ra9war and fipwar are opposite ends of the spectrum, whereas bwar starts with ra9war and then adjusts for defense.

 

[zeke]

I wanted AA to stay but it seems as though our drafting has improved since Shapiro took over. I'm 100% on board with that. Groshans looking like another good one.

3b Groshans - SS Bichette - 2b Biggio - 1b Guerrero Jr

Looks good to me.

replace biggio with smith.

 

[zeke]

they were simply too one dimensional.

no matter how many times you say this, it doesn't make it true.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

I love when the amateur stat "experts" that use stats as reference proof to support their bias but they can't agree on which stat is appropriate.

Lets just settle on Win/Loss as the measuring stick for pitchers.

Uhhh.....k?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

replace biggio with smith.

Smith at SS....Bichette in CF.

 

[kb]

this argument started with a silly, fake criticism of AA. I pointed out that it was silly and fake.

then you started in with a wave of bull****.

Well, the wave of bull**** has been spewed for years coming from the other side, and that is silly and fake. Top-5 system now. Not much the current regime could do with so many players on the downside of their careers with essentially nothing to replace with in the upper levels of the system. Spending $$$ doesn't fix any of that.

It's OK to see things differently.

And as I said, I liked quite a bit of what AA did. But there is no disputing he left the organization in shambles.

 

[kb]

I like AA, I think he is talented but I also think he made those moves to save his own job or get Shapiro's job before Shapiro got it. I get it that we made the playoffs but anyone who has a slightest experience with baseball could see neither of those teams were built to win the WS,they were simply too one dimensional.

This is exactly how I saw it. And why I was not a fan of what transpired.

 

[zeke]

Well, the wave of bull**** has been spewed for years coming from the other side, and that is silly and fake. Top-5 system now. Not much the current regime could do with so many players on the downside of their careers with essentially nothing to replace with in the upper levels of the system. Spending $$$ doesn't fix any of that.

It's OK to see things differently.

And as I said, I liked quite a bit of what AA did. But there is no disputing he left the organization in shambles.

in the same post you say we have a top-5 system now ( just 2yrs after making the ALCS for the 2nd time), and you say that the organization was left in shambles.

how is that possible?

 

[Nineteen67]

Really? I really like watching the championship series and world series. Its so intense, esp in elimination games.

The crowds are great, the narratives and matchups are great.

I really like playoff baseball

To this day, I have yet to see a clip of the Cubs WS final out or their celebration.

 

[kb]

Who puts AA on a pedestal outside of zeke? I just think much of the hatred is over-the-top and disproportionate to the reality.

In fact, the only time any one brings up AA in this thread is when you or sticky trash him, followed by zeke white-knighting, and the rest of us trying to come up with a somewhat more moderate take.

Sticky and I talk in the same tone as he does. There was nothing personally trashing him, just commenting on his hot takes. Nothing more, nothing less. I happen to think he's a good poster with an unshakable bias for one lone topic.

But I completely agree the moderate take is the correct one. Both have done good things, and not so good things.

 

[kb]

in the same post you say we have a top-5 system now ( just 2yrs after making the ALCS for the 2nd time), and you say that the organization was left in shambles.

how is that possible?

Because it was bottom 5 when the prior regime left, and is now top-5 under the current regime. A ton of replenishing has occurred, both via trades and far better drafting.

 

[Skin Tape Session]

To this day, I have yet to see a clip of the Cubs WS final out or their celebration.

Really? As a baseball nerd it was a really nice moment. Imstill feel bad for cleveland

 

[kb]

no matter how many times you say this, it doesn't make it true.

The results suggest otherwise.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

The results suggest otherwise.

Alright. If Ryan Goins, the slap hitting, glove first (only) second baseman does his job, and the 2015 Blue Jays are in the world series against a weak Mets team.

This is getting silly now.

 

[kb]

Alright. If Ryan Goins, the slap hitting, glove first (only) second baseman does his job, and the 2015 Blue Jays are in the world series against a weak Mets team.

This is getting silly now.

So? He didn't make the play. The game is played on the field, and the results are exactly what they are.

Is every losing team entitled to an asterisk? Because we both damn well know that an argument can be made for anything and everything....hey, if Bill Buckner only makes that play....

Disputing reality is more silly than accepting it.

 

[metafour]

Santiago Espinal in AA:

.298/.353/.468
7.8% BB rate, 13.7% K rate

This kid could be a steal.