The future of our defense core?

YorkshireRose

Registered User
Apr 9, 2014
57
0
Halifax, England
Im curious to hear what you guys think the future holds for our defense.

I thought last season was a step in the right direction yet this season has proved there is a lot of work to do.

As much as i dislike Dion, i feel there is a place for him on the team, just not in a leadership role, i think Franson, Gardiner and Rielly will all be quality players and Gunnar, Gleason and Ranger are steady players..... so where are we going wrong and what could we do about it?

This is my first thread so also Hello from sunny rainy England.
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
52,374
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Unless we want to be much much worst defensively, Phaneuf has to stay. You can say he sucks, you can say he's overpaid, but there's no denying that he's really good and probably the best we got in the foreseeable future.

After that, Gardiner and Rielly have shown great things in spurts. Let's just hope Nonis and the gang are not stupid. Rielly is safe but Gardiner has been thrown around a lot and that has to stop. Plenty of potential there and hopefully surrounding them with solid players is he way to go.

Gunnarsson is a low cost, low maintenance player. Probably overplayed at times but he's a player every team needs. We need to keep him.

After that, this is where it gets a little muddy. Franson is an enigma. The added minutes and responsibilities this year really took a toll on him. I think he's a decent top 4 defender but probably better suited as a #5 guy and top PP minutes. His mobility is just terrible and his hockey IQ is rather low. If there's a guy you could probably move, it's him. We need to get smarter defenders... and he's not that. With a couple offensive oriented guys like Phaneuf, Rielly and Gardiner, Franson is definitely expended. We need another Gunnarsson instead of him I think.

Gleason is just fodder for now. A decent veteran that's overpaid.

Ranger is a depth defender... meh.

Overall, I think it's a decent defensive core that needs (in a perfect world) a top 2 and a top 4 defender. Now with that said, Rielly has top pairing potential but may take a few years to achieve. Gardiner is a top 4 defender but is prone to making a lot of mistakes, which we hope he can get over in the near future. A coach that doesn't throw him to the wolves would be nice.

With Percy and Granberg likely NHLers as early as next season, the depth of the defensive core should be better.
 

613Leafer

Registered User
May 26, 2008
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Well i would say its impossible to "pencil" specific names into specific slots. With Percy/Granberg/Finn for example, Im quite confident those three guys should become NHLers in some capacity. But i would also guess one becomes a bit of a disappointment (a depth #6-7 guy), one develops as expected (#3-5 guy), and hopefully one exceeds expectations (#2-3 guy).

When it comes to Phaneuf? I think our farm system is a pretty thin group overall, due to trades such as Bolland, Kessel, Liles, Bernier (even though that was a great trade, it still hurt the farm), etc. He's a good player, but I also think longterm, our blueline is our strength. I would be looking to move him for a futures package, and then use ~4M of that 7M caphit to find a cheaper 2nd pairing type of guy to help solidify the blueline along with Rielly, Gardiner, Gunnarsson, and our developing prospects.

Gleason will be difficult to unload, so I guess keep him as a veteran presence for now. Overall it has to be looked at as a work in progress. We wont have the ideal blueline next season, or even the season after that IMO. Moving Phaneuf removes a solid player, but will improve the cap situation, can help improve team depth, and given a few years of development i dont think he'll be missed all that much anyways.

Defensively, our lack of two-way forwards in our top 6 is our biggest issue IMO, and unless Leivo/Gauthier both become top 6 guys, we dont really have any obvious answers internally.
 
Last edited:

Dugath

Registered User
Jan 9, 2014
298
78
This is a tough one.

As much as people rip on Dion.. if you trade him then you have no one who should even be considered being on the top D line. Unfortunately, if you keep him he has to keep the C.. you can not take the C from him without having to trade him after I believe.

Gunnar while reliable should not be on the top line at all.

They have two choices I think..
Keep Dion and trade/sign someone to pair with him
Trade Dion and trade/sign 2 top line D.. good luck with that.

I am interested to see what will happen as you can not get rid of all current D men who displease you.

Franson while people like to pile on him, seemed like he was playing injured and had a very good year before this one.

Ranger I can see a take or leave situation.

I can see Gardiner being traded if need be as he would bring back value.

In the end this team has to change the D situation as IMO there are too many rush/puck moving D men. I would perter 2 solid possession type D men with good defensive awareness inserted.
 

ShaneFalco

Registered User
Jul 15, 2012
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London, On
Well i would say its impossible to "pencil" specific names into specific slots. With Percy/Granberg/Finn for example, Im quite confident those three guys should become NHLers in some capacity. But i would also guess one becomes a bit of a disappointment (a depth #6-7 guy), one develops as expected (#3-5 guy), and hopefully one exceeds expectations (#2-3 guy).

When it comes to Phaneuf? I think our farm system is a pretty thin group overall, due to trades such as Bolland, Kessel, Liles, Bernier (even though that was a great trade, it still hurt the farm), etc. He's a good player, but I also think longterm, our blueline is our strength. I would be looking to move him for a futures package, and then use ~4M of that 7M caphit to find a cheaper 2nd pairing type of guy to help solidify the blueline along with Rielly, Gardiner, Gunnarsson, and our developing prospects.

Gleason will be difficult to unload, so I guess keep him as a veteran presence for now. Overall it has to be looked at as a work in progress. We wont have the ideal blueline next season, or even the season after that IMO. Moving Phaneuf removes a solid player, but will improve the cap situation, can help improve team depth, and given a few years of development i dont think he'll be missed all that much anyways.

I'm hoping macwilliam makes it in there too
And I agree with moving Dion. The time is now. It may sting a bit next year, but if Shanny wants a culture change, that's perhaps where you start (with the players anyway)
 

BlueBomber76

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Mar 14, 2009
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I would say, IMO, that Franson and Ranger are on the outs.

Franson is gonna ask for an amount he clearly isn't worth and Ranger hasn't done anything that we couldn't replace with one of Percy or Granberg.

I would also look for a deal for Gunnarsson. Not to say he isn't serviceable, I think it would be for a hockey trade or package to fill a need.
 

Al14

Registered User
Jul 13, 2007
24,214
5,586
Im curious to hear what you guys think the future holds for our defense.

I thought last season was a step in the right direction yet this season has proved there is a lot of work to do.

As much as i dislike Dion, i feel there is a place for him on the team, just not in a leadership role, i think Franson, Gardiner and Rielly will all be quality players and Gunnar, Gleason and Ranger are steady players..... so where are we going wrong and what could we do about it?

This is my first thread so also Hello from sunny rainy England.

Franson and quality in the same sentence! :facepalm:

Franson is a give away machine and costs the team at least one goal against every game! :rant:
 

YorkshireRose

Registered User
Apr 9, 2014
57
0
Halifax, England
Franson and quality in the same sentence! :facepalm:

Franson is a give away machine and costs the team at least one goal against every game! :rant:

This season. last season he was one of if not the best defense-men.

For me, i would somehow try to flip Franson and Riemer plus for a good but not necessarily young defenseman, and let Dion take a reduced role.

As for Phaneuf he's a good player, being used incorrectly and having responsibility he cant take forced on him. He's a 4/5 mill player being payed 7 and thats the only reason i think people want his head.
 

Dugath

Registered User
Jan 9, 2014
298
78
Franson and quality in the same sentence! :facepalm:

Franson is a give away machine and costs the team at least one goal against every game! :rant:


Then he is in good company, here is the top 5 leafs players in give aways.


Player GP. TotalGives. # per game

Phil Kessel TOR 82 88 1.07
Jake Gardiner TOR 80 68 0.85
Morgan Rielly TOR 73 71 0.97
Cody Franson TOR 79 68 0.86
Carl Gunnarsson TOR 80 65 0.81

Sorry I can not seem to get this in a nice chart layout :)
 

613Leafer

Registered User
May 26, 2008
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This season. last season he was one of if not the best defense-men.

This is so ridiculously wrong. Franson played BOTTOM-PAIRING minutes for the majority of last season. He would go out playing sheltered minutes against 3rd/4th lines. It's not hard to have a good +/- in that scenario.

That's like looking at the statlines for the Nashville predators (http://predators.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?gameType=2&season=20132014&srt=pm) and coming to the conclusion that Ryan Ellis was their best defenceman, because he was a +9.

Franson was bad last season. They put him against scoring lines more frequently in the last month or so of the season, and his +/- dropped by like 8-10 points. Whenever he's been used against scoring lines in a top 4 role, he's always been exposed as a crappy defenceman.\

This guy has over 300+ NHL games under his belt and is 27 this summer. We're not talking about a 20-23 year old with ~50-150 games of experience.
 

YorkshireRose

Registered User
Apr 9, 2014
57
0
Halifax, England
This is so ridiculously wrong. Franson played BOTTOM-PAIRING minutes for the majority of last season. He would go out playing sheltered minutes against 3rd/4th lines. It's not hard to have a good +/- in that scenario.

That's like looking at the statlines for the Nashville predators (http://predators.nhl.com/club/stats.htm?gameType=2&season=20132014&srt=pm) and coming to the conclusion that Ryan Ellis was their best defenceman, because he was a +9.

Franson was bad last season. They put him against scoring lines more frequently in the last month or so of the season, and his +/- dropped by like 8-10 points. Whenever he's been used against scoring lines in a top 4 role, he's always been exposed as a crappy defenceman.\

This guy has over 300+ NHL games under his belt and is 27 this summer. We're not talking about a 20-23 year old with ~50-150 games of experience.

disregarding stats, and just going off the games i watched last season (probably around 80%) i thought he played well, but then again i thought kostka played well haha.
your stats don't lie though so fair enough
 

Cams

Registered User
May 27, 2008
1,476
570
Windsor, ON
Well - they certainly have been lacking an elite defender since... (ever?) unless you want to go back to Salming.

Phaneuf is a good dman - physical (although he will never be lay the big each game like Stevens, or like he did in the world jrs). He is overworked. And using this years stats - overpaid. Going to be hard to deal him, but is better off if he has a better defensive d-man to help him.

Gunnarsson - very capable, dependable dman - not a top pairing guy though - keep him. He would be a player the Leafs and their fans scratch their heads wondering why they traded him.

Franson - as much as he provides on the PP, defensively he is terrible. If a trading partner is there, do a deal. His only other asset to the Leafs aside from his PP points is he is their only R shot.

Gardiner - Has potential to be a top offensive dman, no denying he is one of the best skaters on the team. Again though - defensively he is nothing to get excited about. He is also pretty much redundant with Reilly's emergence. At his age, and with his potential he is expendable for the right deal.

Reilly - The reason why Gardiner and/or Franson are expendable. He is a stronger skater than Gardiner, better hockey sense, and shows a better compete level, as well as being better defensively. IMO - he will be better than Gardiner. Needs to be paired with a veteran defensive dman (which the Leafs sorely lack).

Ranger - was a feel good story who impressed in camp, but came out of the slow showing he hadn't played at that level in some time. As the season progressed he got better as his conditioning improved. Would be fine with him staying at a low $ value as a 6/7/8 dman.

Gleason - Came to Toronto hitting, blocking shots, playing physical. If he gets angry, is a tough guy to take on in a fight. Probably the toughest dman on the team right now. He may lack a bit in footspeed, but a new season may rejuvenate him. I would keep him as a veteran presence, bottom pairing player.

They cannot go into next season with these players and expect success.

As for Marlies players - hard to say, as most are only 1 or 2 year pros out of junior/college.

Percy showed how good he could be in pre-season, but needed the year in the "A", and his numbers show his transition has been smooth - is another year of AHL the way to go?

Grannberg - He is ready - he was touted as NHL ready when he came over, but as usual, the Leafs show little trust in letting him prove it right away when the big club lacked defensively. He isn't going to put up points, but has the chance to be a very good top 4 defender, plus he is a RH shot

Finn - will be a Marlie next year, not even in the conversation for making the Leafs

Holzer - is his chance at the NHL (in TOR) gone? He has been a very good dman with the Marlies, has a RH shot, and provides size. He may get one more shot next year

Brennan - certainly provides goals - however again not very good defensively - could be a good PP guy if Franson gets dealt, but his minutes should be sheltered otherwise.

One player that really intrigues me is MacWilliam - he showed his physical play in the pre-season, and put up good numbers for a defensive dman in the AHL (first pro season). He may need another year in the AHL, but being a US college player, is older, more experienced. This is the type of player the Leafs need in their top 6/7 D. Physical, hits hard, can fight - a much better skating Mark Frasor is what I see him as. Is he hurt? He has not played any playoff games yet.

Marshall also seems to be a MacWilliam type, maybe providing more offense.
 

Cams

Registered User
May 27, 2008
1,476
570
Windsor, ON
re: my last post above...

I, ideally, would like to see a scenario where the Leafs can trade Franson, even if for a draft pick. I would like to see them also make a big deal, trading a package like Kadri + Gardiner, and getting an elite defensive minded Dman, or forward, or even very high draft pick (some type of package deal). Kadri is replaced by Holland, Gardiner by Reilly.

They let Ranger walk as well.

Thus, you are removing Gardiner, Franson, Ranger, potentially adding a D by trade (I'm thinking a Matt Green, Anton Volchenkov type), and having Grannberg and/or MacWilliam to replace those players.

Phaneuf - player acquired in trade
Gunnarsson - Reilly
Gleason - Grannberg/MacWilliam
You could even swap Gunnarsson and Grannberg????

Leafs have too many Gardiner type (offensively very good, defensively lacking) dmen.
 
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mydnyte

Registered User
Sep 8, 2004
14,972
1,680
Im curious to hear what you guys think the future holds for our defense.

I thought last season was a step in the right direction yet this season has proved there is a lot of work to do.

As much as i dislike Dion, i feel there is a place for him on the team, just not in a leadership role, i think Franson, Gardiner and Rielly will all be quality players and Gunnar, Gleason and Ranger are steady players..... so where are we going wrong and what could we do about it?

This is my first thread so also Hello from sunny rainy England.

near future:

Rielly - Phaneuf (too long a contract to not be there)
Gardiner - Finn
Percy - Granberg

Pairings stay intact for PK, and PP
 

mydnyte

Registered User
Sep 8, 2004
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1,680
Then he is in good company, here is the top 5 leafs players in give aways.


Player GP. TotalGives. # per game

Phil Kessel TOR 82 88 1.07
Jake Gardiner TOR 80 68 0.85
Morgan Rielly TOR 73 71 0.97
Cody Franson TOR 79 68 0.86
Carl Gunnarsson TOR 80 65 0.81

Sorry I can not seem to get this in a nice chart layout :)

do a chart for the stat in the Defensive Zone
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,213
9,192
I personally would let Jake & Morgan run a powerplay unit, imo. You can have them for the full 2 minutes - their speed can handle it, I think. Mo can't hit the broad side of a barn (yet). but Jake has a very sneaky shot. they both can dish it, and Mo loves sneaking in behind the play. and their 2-line pass is amazing.
 

GoonieFace

Registered User
Jun 24, 2013
7,315
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The Matrix
Phaneuf - Needs to go, and fast!

Franson - Really needs to go, Frankenstein on skates

Gunnarsson - Keep

Reilly - Keep

Gardiner - Would like to keep, but would be an attractive piece to acquire a more stay at home type dman

Ranger - Bye, maybe keep as a 7th

Granberg- Please make the team next year

McWilliam - Also a possibility
 

Sharabhi

Registered User
Jan 10, 2008
351
2
The problem is that we're using Phaneuf as a Weber/Suter/Chara, when he can't handle that. He simply can't be counted on to log so many mins. We need to lighten his load, and until we have 2 other dmen that can play against the opposing teams 1st lines, we should take him off the PP1 at least. Let our other offensively gifted dmen take that role, or pair one of them with a forward on the PP.
 

theIceWookie

#LeafHysteriaAlert
Dec 19, 2010
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Canada
near future:

Rielly - Phaneuf (too long a contract to not be there)
Gardiner - Finn
Percy - Granberg

Pairings stay intact for PK, and PP

I actually see it a little differently. I don't see Gunnarsson moving unless we find a sweet deal for him.

Phaneuf - Rielly
Gardiner - Granberg
Gunnarsson - Percy/Finn
MacWilliam
 

613Leafer

Registered User
May 26, 2008
12,838
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The problem is that we're using Phaneuf as a Weber/Suter/Chara, when he can't handle that. He simply can't be counted on to log so many mins. We need to lighten his load, and until we have 2 other dmen that can play against the opposing teams 1st lines, we should take him off the PP1 at least. Let our other offensively gifted dmen take that role, or pair one of them with a forward on the PP.

His minutes were actually down substantially this season to 23:33 TOI/G (compared to 25:10 last year).

I wonder if he had an injury or something though, because down the stretch he looked substantially worse, plus his minutes were much lower mostly bouncing between ~17-21 minutes game. (http://espn.go.com/nhl/player/gamelog/_/id/2282/dion-phaneuf)
 

mydnyte

Registered User
Sep 8, 2004
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I actually see it a little differently. I don't see Gunnarsson moving unless we find a sweet deal for him.

Phaneuf - Rielly
Gardiner - Granberg
Gunnarsson - Percy/Finn
MacWilliam

I was thinking more like 2-3 years down the road when i made my post... wouldnt have had Dion on the list, if not for his contract. otherwise i'd have had Reilly - Granberg as the top pairing, the ideal mix of elite offense, and solid defense.
 

Ricky Bobby

Registered User
Aug 31, 2008
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Phaneuf-Rielly-Gardiner is the core!

The rest are replaceable and obtaining extra assets long term assets like picks/prospects is more important to us then simply letting current secondary pieces get older (and potentially more expensive). Recycling players is what we needed to do a few years ago with Grabo, CMac, Kulemin but since we didn't we're paying for it now.

How I view the rest:

Franson: only good on the PP. Sucks at everything else but Rielly + Gardiner can handle more PP minutes. Trade him sooner rather then later and replace with a UFA vet.

Gunnarson: yes, on a great contract but only with 2 years left on it. Acquiring something like an extra first (like Kyle Quincey returned) is more important then eventually giving him a pay increase or eventually letting him walk for nothing. Keep him for now but hopefully we sell high on him at the deadline.

Gleason: simply a veteran stop gap. Has no trade value at the moment but could as soon as the deadline. Keep him for now but trade him before his contract expires.

Ranger: simply a stop gap but a very cheap one.

I'd also like to see the Leafs bring in a veteran or even 2 on a 1 or 2 year deal like Mitchell, Salo, Robidas, Stralman, Hainsey this off-season who can also be recycled for more picks/prospects. This team simply needs assets and every year at the deadline the # 1 piece teams overpay for is for Dmen.

We need to get back to selling off pieces to build up extra organizational depth like picks/prospects to add to the next wave of candidates like Percy, Granberg, Finn.

We have some nice secondary D prospects but we need to add substantially to the # of good candidates we have to fill roles out long term (or to have as trade pieces for down the road).
 

YorkshireRose

Registered User
Apr 9, 2014
57
0
Halifax, England
I actually see it a little differently. I don't see Gunnarsson moving unless we find a sweet deal for him.

Phaneuf - Rielly
Gardiner - Granberg
Gunnarsson - Percy/Finn
MacWilliam

both of those line-ups would be great but surely there needs to be some veteren toughness there, even in 2/3 years that is a core just waiting to be pushed around, id like a top 4 mix of good offense/defense then a bottom 2 pairing of the nastiest, toughest, hardest to play against guys in the league
 

johnny_rudeboy

Registered User
Mar 20, 2006
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Karlstad
I really hope Dion will be gone before training camp start the same goes for Franson. Think Gunnarsson will stay around for a couple more years to unload the burden from some of our younger guys. Perhaps Ranger will find a similar role if resigned. Gleason if not bought out or traded will play out his contract but will not be resigned.

But 2-4 years from now.

Top pairing = Rielly - ???
2nd pairing = Finn - Gardiner
Shutdown pair = Percy - Granberg
7th d-man = Nilsson
 

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