You have to criticize the fans (there's no choice), too, since they are part of the problem. There's too many loyal fans who cheer for this joke of a franchise even when the writing is on the wall. The ownership now has the same attitude as the previous. Except, they're a much larger corporation that is using more marketing and hype to promote their brand. The Leafs needed to rebuild and they didn't. They needed to do a major overhaul to ensure they fell sufficiently in the standings but they didn't. They still had their core. The Sabres traded both their starting goalies and some star players. Both their starting goalies!!!
The Leafs did little. They lucked out on a couple of trades but for the most part, did little. Now, they'll finish with subpar odds as they look to finish 4th or 5th last. That probably won't be enough for McDavid.
I said they would finish poorly and so did a lot of other fans - at the start of the season, this was predicted. But, management didn't have the insight to foresee what they are paid to do. There is speculation that Nonis is staying on as GM. This organization doesn't care that it's running an inept system since they know no matter what, the fans will be there. They just want the turnaround as quick as possible so there's no real rebuild, no overhaul. It's not being planned as a five-year rebuilding project. Nope. The fans are the fools because they don't seem to realize what is going on. But, the OP has some sense of it. The Leafs franchise takes the fans for granted and assume the support will be there. But, there is no logical path to building the team. The Sabres, at least, are an organization that is willing to overhaul their team and be horrible in the short-term so that they have a good chance at securing the top players in junior.
The Leafs are content with doing the minimum so that they can turn the team into a playoff team in a short period of time. But, they'll never be genuine contenders. Like always. But, fans will line up to pay them $$.
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The scary thing is that our 2 highest ranking front office executives are incompetent. Shanahan has shown nothing but incompetence since he has taken over, and Nonis who has proven himself to be a failure as GM is still here.
Management and ownership are clearly responsible for this mess.
Part of the problem was that the team had no real functioning president for years. It's a critical role as an executive mediator between management and ownership and this was neglected. So management went on making long term decisions in a vacuum handing out bad contracts and trading quality assets for heartless players with the goal of squeaking into the playoffs and extending their own employment.
Shanahan, Dubas, Hunter plus the first round picks at least gives the leafs a chance to rebuild with a superior philosophy.
Their initial acquisitions in Santorelli and Winnik netted decent returns. Nylander, Brown, Johnson, Shoshnikov, Valiev, Loov and Leipsic look like decent prospects. Morgan Rielly will be as good as Duncan Keith in a couple of years. It's a start on the road to respectability.
The team still needs to trade Kessel and Phaneuf for futures and hire a decent coach but it looks like this time they're actually committed to a complete and proper rebuild which should have happened 10 years ago after Sundin departed.
There are no fast tracks to success in the salary cap system.
The rest of the league recognized this early on but it took the leafs organization years to figure it out.
Part of the problem was that the team had no real functioning president for years. It's a critical role as an executive mediator between management and ownership and this was neglected. So management went on making long term decisions in a vacuum handing out bad contracts and trading quality assets for heartless players with the goal of squeaking into the playoffs and extending their own employment.
Shanahan, Dubas, Hunter plus the first round picks at least gives the leafs a chance to rebuild with a superior philosophy.
Their initial acquisitions in Santorelli and Winnik netted decent returns. Nylander, Brown, Johnson, Shoshnikov, Valiev, Loov and Leipsic look like decent prospects. Morgan Rielly will be as good as Duncan Keith in a couple of years. It's a start on the road to respectability.
The team still needs to trade Kessel and Phaneuf for futures and hire a decent coach but it looks like this time they're actually committed to a complete and proper rebuild which should have happened 10 years ago after Sundin departed.
There are no fast tracks to success in the salary cap system.
The rest of the league recognized this early on but it took the leafs organization years to figure it out.
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HockeyGuruPitka
Registered User
Although I agree, it saddens me that so many people poor their lives into a team that is founded on a business. This is sport. What happens when the leafs win the cup? We continue on with our lives. We raise our kids, go to work, love our wives and the world goes on. I'm a die hard, but don't take it personally when the players on the ice aren't physically capable to win. We the fans are the fools. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, thrice, and so on shame on me. Why are we blaming the team when we are the ones still paying the bills?
Reading all that was depressing and all so true. We are such a ****ed up franchise. If there is s mistake to be made, you can be sure the Leafs will make it. I just really hope we get McDavid and start fresh with this team.
What proof is there that they are trying to rebuild the team? No fan here has shown any. They kept their main core.... Bozak got a hat trick and the Leafs win a game - which hurt their chances of getting a better (well, worse in the standings) shot at the top draft pick. Yes, maybe they will get a Marner or Strome which is still good but the #1 overall lets them choose either of those plus McDavid.
There was all this talk of tanking but I don't see it. I see it with Buffalo. Phoenix was accused of it, too. Edmonton made trades but they're already lousy. The Leafs kept most of their core compared to these teams. They were beating teams like Tampa and others - would that happen if they cleaned house? Probably not.
Why would you keep a GM on this long if you are planning to use new personnel to draft/trade/build etc.? Imho, Shanahan is just a figurehead for the PR dept. and for the fans/media to concentrate on. He's mostly invisible and the moves have been minor for the most part.
The Leafs still have a horrible record/rep for developing their talent. The last poll had the Leafs as one of the bottom (i.e. least preferred) teams to be traded to. Few players want to play for this franchise. They're inept although they're known to overpay and hand out nice no-trade/movement clauses but it's not enough to convince players to be interested in playing there. The media is only bad when they are not winning. But, with the media so connected to Sportsnet and other Rogers-companies, it's not going to be that bad. Leafs columnists still want access so they'll sugarcoat their criticism. The Leafs ownership know they can rely on the fans and the revenue/profits are highest of all the teams. There's no incentive to change or improve anything.
There was all this talk of tanking but I don't see it. I see it with Buffalo. Phoenix was accused of it, too. Edmonton made trades but they're already lousy. The Leafs kept most of their core compared to these teams. They were beating teams like Tampa and others - would that happen if they cleaned house? Probably not.
Why would you keep a GM on this long if you are planning to use new personnel to draft/trade/build etc.? Imho, Shanahan is just a figurehead for the PR dept. and for the fans/media to concentrate on. He's mostly invisible and the moves have been minor for the most part.
The Leafs still have a horrible record/rep for developing their talent. The last poll had the Leafs as one of the bottom (i.e. least preferred) teams to be traded to. Few players want to play for this franchise. They're inept although they're known to overpay and hand out nice no-trade/movement clauses but it's not enough to convince players to be interested in playing there. The media is only bad when they are not winning. But, with the media so connected to Sportsnet and other Rogers-companies, it's not going to be that bad. Leafs columnists still want access so they'll sugarcoat their criticism. The Leafs ownership know they can rely on the fans and the revenue/profits are highest of all the teams. There's no incentive to change or improve anything.
Trust me there's incentive to improve. Nobody wants to be humiliated as the league doormat. The tv ratings are way down and there's been plenty of criticism of the organization.
They tried to trade Phaneuf to Detroit at the deadline and will move kessel before July 1st free agency. Those huge contracts are more difficult to move but there's a limited market.
The CyNick
Freedom of Speech!
- Sep 17, 2009
- 11,364
- 2,032
Usual nonsense from fans who dont seem to grasp that in a league with 30 teams, there are 30 organizations who also want to win. Nobody is going to lay down and just let us start winning.
Every person who has been in charge of this organization since Ballard has wanted to win. It BENEFITS the Leafs organization to win. They make more money when they win. The whole thing about one non sold old game will lead to this sudden change is absurd. There is an element of the fan base that I believe thinks Leafs Ownership wants to lose, and if suddenly there are 100 seats left unsold, they will turn the management switch in the basement of the ACC from incompetent to competent.
The problem isnt incompetence. Most of the guys who ran the Leafs from a Hockey Ops perspective in the last 10 years are still in the league. So obviously they are not incompetent boobs. They just made moves that didn't work out. In a league with 30 teams, that happens all the time. It happens by people who are thought to be competent one year, and suddenly are incompetent the next (or vice versa).
Whats the difference between the perception of the Bruins front office and the Canucks front office? Most would say the Bruins are far superior. Yet in reality the difference from the Canucks having a Stanley Cup banner from this decade in their rafters and not Boston was one terrible game played by the players.
Whats the difference between the Pens and the Oilers? The Oilers had the unfortunate luck of being dreadful when there were no game changers available. The Pens had two game changers, and a quality goalie made available to them. That just comes down to good luck vs bad luck.
The current regime has the right idea, if the plan is to start from scratch. But say we bottom out next year. Say we end up with Strome this year, and get Matthews next year. Is that combination Toews and Kane or is it RNH and Yakupov? If its the latter, and we go nowhere in the next 10 years, does that mean Shanny is a boob? Or does it mean the Leafs Ownership purposely wanted to lose?
Its a tough business to get right. Nobody really knows the right path to get it right. But no ownership group is looking to lose...well, except maybe the Sabres this year.
Every person who has been in charge of this organization since Ballard has wanted to win. It BENEFITS the Leafs organization to win. They make more money when they win. The whole thing about one non sold old game will lead to this sudden change is absurd. There is an element of the fan base that I believe thinks Leafs Ownership wants to lose, and if suddenly there are 100 seats left unsold, they will turn the management switch in the basement of the ACC from incompetent to competent.
The problem isnt incompetence. Most of the guys who ran the Leafs from a Hockey Ops perspective in the last 10 years are still in the league. So obviously they are not incompetent boobs. They just made moves that didn't work out. In a league with 30 teams, that happens all the time. It happens by people who are thought to be competent one year, and suddenly are incompetent the next (or vice versa).
Whats the difference between the perception of the Bruins front office and the Canucks front office? Most would say the Bruins are far superior. Yet in reality the difference from the Canucks having a Stanley Cup banner from this decade in their rafters and not Boston was one terrible game played by the players.
Whats the difference between the Pens and the Oilers? The Oilers had the unfortunate luck of being dreadful when there were no game changers available. The Pens had two game changers, and a quality goalie made available to them. That just comes down to good luck vs bad luck.
The current regime has the right idea, if the plan is to start from scratch. But say we bottom out next year. Say we end up with Strome this year, and get Matthews next year. Is that combination Toews and Kane or is it RNH and Yakupov? If its the latter, and we go nowhere in the next 10 years, does that mean Shanny is a boob? Or does it mean the Leafs Ownership purposely wanted to lose?
Its a tough business to get right. Nobody really knows the right path to get it right. But no ownership group is looking to lose...well, except maybe the Sabres this year.
Ratboy
I made a funny!
- Jul 15, 2009
- 16,855
- 3,343
The best ****ing parties Toronto's ever seen, that's what.
I remember even back in 93 on that playoff run, random strangers would high five eachother in the street. Don't discount the impact a winning Leafs team would have on the city's morale in general. That's a lot of happy people.
Boring.
"I've been a Leafs fan a very long time and I am very upset that they aren't good!".
What a revelation.
"I've been a Leafs fan a very long time and I am very upset that they aren't good!".
What a revelation.
HamiltonFan
bettman's a Weasel
- May 4, 2009
- 655
- 2
Excellent post by the op, but I've said it before, the last place McDavid ends up (if the league does in fact fix the lottery) is Toronto. The nhl is far more interested in propping up bettmans pet southern teams than they are in seeing more profit come out of the Toronto market. If they were truly interested in more profit from the Toronto region, they would have placed a 2nd franchise here decades ago. The league is leaving 10's of millions of dollars in profit on the table every year by vetoing a 2nd franchise in this area.
If you look at the 4 major sports (we'll generously consider that the grossly mismanaged bush league nhl as a top 4 league for the purposes of this discussion), and the largest markets in those sports, no city gets a worse overall deal than Toronto does in the nhl. They are the financial powerhouse, but they get no benefit for being so like in the other leagues.
Let's look at baseball first. There is a nominal luxury tax, but effectively the rich teams can spend what they want, and use their financial status as an actual advantage. The large market teams are generally at the top of the standings. Not only that, but the large markets also have multiple franchises to choose from, allowing at least somewhat of a small check on ticket prices, such that the average fan can buy season tickets.
Basketball is similar to baseball, but to a lesser extent as the luxury tax is more punitive than MLB. Large markets such as the Lakers are still able to flex their financial muscle, and spend as much as they want on salaries. Also, the presence of multiple franchises in the large markets allows fans to be able to afford season tickets to teams like the Clippers and Nets.
NFL has the most equitable revenue sharing system such that the New York franchises are less able than other leagues to use their financial muscle. LA not having any teams is a unique issue about public funding for a stadium. The NFL does allow multiple teams in it's largest market such that fans can still afford season tickets. When LA gets the stadium issue solved, there will undoubtedly be 2 teams there like there has been in the past.
How about the nhl? Hard salary cap does not allow rich markets to use their financial power. The nhl does indeed allow multiple franchises in large markets, but only if the large market is in the USA. The nhl is absolutely fanatical about not allowing a second team here. Toronto is by far the largest and richest hockey market in the world, bigger than both NY and LA COMBINED (by number of hockey fans), but the nhl actively spends money and resources to keep the 2nd team out of Toronto. The result for the fans in this region is the worse deal in pro sports. Because of the monopoly the Leafs are allowed to maintain, the region is grossly underserviced. I'm not even sure if some people realize it, but to get season tickets for the Leafs, you first have to pay approximately $100,000 for a pair of seat licenses, which only gives you the right to buy the tickets. You still have to pay for the overpriced tickets on top of the $100,000. How is the average fan, or even somebody who makes over $100,000 per year salary, supposed to be able to afford that? This is by far the worse situation in professional sports in the world. The richest market in the nhl has to send a hefty portion of its profits to teams down south who are then able to spend as much as the Leafs in salary and thereby able to compete on equal footing to the Leafs on the ice. Add in the active refusal to put a 2nd team here (which would make tickets more affordable), and the Toronto region, as far as the nhl goes, gets the worse deal of any city in any sports league on the planet.
If you look at the 4 major sports (we'll generously consider that the grossly mismanaged bush league nhl as a top 4 league for the purposes of this discussion), and the largest markets in those sports, no city gets a worse overall deal than Toronto does in the nhl. They are the financial powerhouse, but they get no benefit for being so like in the other leagues.
Let's look at baseball first. There is a nominal luxury tax, but effectively the rich teams can spend what they want, and use their financial status as an actual advantage. The large market teams are generally at the top of the standings. Not only that, but the large markets also have multiple franchises to choose from, allowing at least somewhat of a small check on ticket prices, such that the average fan can buy season tickets.
Basketball is similar to baseball, but to a lesser extent as the luxury tax is more punitive than MLB. Large markets such as the Lakers are still able to flex their financial muscle, and spend as much as they want on salaries. Also, the presence of multiple franchises in the large markets allows fans to be able to afford season tickets to teams like the Clippers and Nets.
NFL has the most equitable revenue sharing system such that the New York franchises are less able than other leagues to use their financial muscle. LA not having any teams is a unique issue about public funding for a stadium. The NFL does allow multiple teams in it's largest market such that fans can still afford season tickets. When LA gets the stadium issue solved, there will undoubtedly be 2 teams there like there has been in the past.
How about the nhl? Hard salary cap does not allow rich markets to use their financial power. The nhl does indeed allow multiple franchises in large markets, but only if the large market is in the USA. The nhl is absolutely fanatical about not allowing a second team here. Toronto is by far the largest and richest hockey market in the world, bigger than both NY and LA COMBINED (by number of hockey fans), but the nhl actively spends money and resources to keep the 2nd team out of Toronto. The result for the fans in this region is the worse deal in pro sports. Because of the monopoly the Leafs are allowed to maintain, the region is grossly underserviced. I'm not even sure if some people realize it, but to get season tickets for the Leafs, you first have to pay approximately $100,000 for a pair of seat licenses, which only gives you the right to buy the tickets. You still have to pay for the overpriced tickets on top of the $100,000. How is the average fan, or even somebody who makes over $100,000 per year salary, supposed to be able to afford that? This is by far the worse situation in professional sports in the world. The richest market in the nhl has to send a hefty portion of its profits to teams down south who are then able to spend as much as the Leafs in salary and thereby able to compete on equal footing to the Leafs on the ice. Add in the active refusal to put a 2nd team here (which would make tickets more affordable), and the Toronto region, as far as the nhl goes, gets the worse deal of any city in any sports league on the planet.
Mess
Global Moderator
I think the likeability factor or lack there of this roster is an issue plaguing this team, affecting the ratings and playing a factor in how the media reports on them.
I think a hard working team that give 110% effort every night even when they lose is still a team fans enjoy supporting through think and thin. This team has players giving 10% even to the point their own coach is calling it the don't-give-a-crap meter being at an all time low.
The 1980's teams were not very good but Wendel Clark hitting, fighting, scoring and doing everything in his power to win. I think Shanny is going to bring in new players with a strong compete meter and it will rub off on the other players to increase their own intensity.
hope so, Mess...
I can't stomach watching a team that can't even show up and compete, I don't care how skilled they are. I'd rather watch AHL hockey at this point.
It always had to come to this.
The fans had to stop watching and paying. The team was used to support non viable teams while paying top $$ to watch a gutted team.Over the years we have simply thrown away S.Niedermayer,Courtnall,Luongo,Rask,Steen,Couture,Seguin,Hamilton but the fans kept paying.As long as Toronto made $$ they were content to be the laughing stock of the league.And now after what, 47 years ? It is finally ending and a new era is beginning, no Leaf fans to support the non viable teams. They may have lost fans for years and that wont be good for the NHL.
Do you ever think some of it was intentional instead of just sheer stupidity?
The fans had to stop watching and paying. The team was used to support non viable teams while paying top $$ to watch a gutted team.Over the years we have simply thrown away S.Niedermayer,Courtnall,Luongo,Rask,Steen,Couture,Seguin,Hamilton but the fans kept paying.As long as Toronto made $$ they were content to be the laughing stock of the league.And now after what, 47 years ? It is finally ending and a new era is beginning, no Leaf fans to support the non viable teams. They may have lost fans for years and that wont be good for the NHL.
Do you ever think some of it was intentional instead of just sheer stupidity?
I agree. That just shows fans like 'Cy Nick' just don't get it. They don't need to win. They make a profit that is highest in the League, regardless of how they do on the ice.
The point is, they won't do a rebuild or overhaul that would result in missing the playoffs four or five years in a row. They won't have this patience. They don't believe in this system since they think they can win after a quick fix. This has always been the philosophy of the Maple Leafs. They're selfish and greedy and this organization doesn't want to assure themselves of being out of the playoffs for consecutive years. They prefer any GM who will constantly make moves, whether that is trading away the 1st, signing UFAs or whatever it takes, to get them to climb the standings enough to get into the playoffs. However, with the changes in the League, it's a lot more difficult to use UFAs and $$ to achieve the quick fix. But, there's still no overhaul. They are not rebuilding. It's more of a retool than that.
Most fans don't get it. They just get frustrated but they don't understand.
Longshot
Registered User
I'm trying not to laugh too hard.
You're angry at more than a decade of losing and lousy management.
And your suggested solution?
The league should fix the draft lottery and "reward" all that failure.
How is that going to fix anything? And, wouldn't that must be a reward for all that losing and crappy management?
The best lesson this organization can learn is this: there are no shortcuts to success. It's hard work. It takes commitment. It takes a plan. It means sticking by your blueprint even when the fans and the media are howling after the first three-game losing streak.
If you really want things to change, you don't look to the league to fix your problems. You quit watching, quit buying the merchandise, quit talking about the team, etc, etc, etc.
You're angry at more than a decade of losing and lousy management.
And your suggested solution?
The league should fix the draft lottery and "reward" all that failure.
How is that going to fix anything? And, wouldn't that must be a reward for all that losing and crappy management?
The best lesson this organization can learn is this: there are no shortcuts to success. It's hard work. It takes commitment. It takes a plan. It means sticking by your blueprint even when the fans and the media are howling after the first three-game losing streak.
If you really want things to change, you don't look to the league to fix your problems. You quit watching, quit buying the merchandise, quit talking about the team, etc, etc, etc.
Fans are at a breaking point...
And the ripples will be felt around the NHL they just don't see it yet.A trend which took 4 decades to build, won't be turned around so easily.The Leaf fans have been abused and used by the NHL for too long, it is now payback time.I think I watched one full game all year and wont be watching the playoffs, why bother? Cdn teams aren't allowed to win anyway. Once the fans turn their backs on the Leafs, non viable American teams will fall one by one even if they are hand gifted McDavid.
And the ripples will be felt around the NHL they just don't see it yet.A trend which took 4 decades to build, won't be turned around so easily.The Leaf fans have been abused and used by the NHL for too long, it is now payback time.I think I watched one full game all year and wont be watching the playoffs, why bother? Cdn teams aren't allowed to win anyway. Once the fans turn their backs on the Leafs, non viable American teams will fall one by one even if they are hand gifted McDavid.
I can understand the frustration from the fans, I'm frustrated too. But I don't want to get any handouts from the NHL, I want US to win, with good management, good coaching, good players. I'm now sensing that if we do win, everyone is going to at the lottery is rigged, and I honestly hope that's not the case. I don't want McDavid or wins to come through cheating, because then it's not really a win. My life doesn't depend on a Leaf win, so if they win I want it to be earned. Them winning or losing doesn't impact me or my ego in anyways. I just love the game and I love Toronto.
I also don't understand why people complain about Toronto supporting the weaker teams in the league. So what, it's not your money. If it makes the league more competitive and gets more people watching hockey, I'm all for it. I know Canadians are the country that are most associated with hockey, but I definitely don't want it to be like that forever, I want it to get as big as basketball in the US. It's just better entertainment for everyone, and the more people that can enjoy it, the better cause it is seriously the best sport in the world.
I also don't think that MLSE doesn't care about the fans and only cares about profits. Any company would rather have goodwill from their customers than just making money. They've made mistakes, but so have the fans. I don't think it serves anyone to linger in the past, let's just focus on doing things the right way, and hopefully MLSE follows suit.
I also don't understand why people complain about Toronto supporting the weaker teams in the league. So what, it's not your money. If it makes the league more competitive and gets more people watching hockey, I'm all for it. I know Canadians are the country that are most associated with hockey, but I definitely don't want it to be like that forever, I want it to get as big as basketball in the US. It's just better entertainment for everyone, and the more people that can enjoy it, the better cause it is seriously the best sport in the world.
I also don't think that MLSE doesn't care about the fans and only cares about profits. Any company would rather have goodwill from their customers than just making money. They've made mistakes, but so have the fans. I don't think it serves anyone to linger in the past, let's just focus on doing things the right way, and hopefully MLSE follows suit.
wow. idk what to say about this post but:
1) idc how we win, as long as we win
2) didn't realize everyone in pittsburgh hates that they won the lottery to get crosby, they probably all hate hockey knowing that they were gift wrapped a winner
3) MLSE cares more about making a profit than it does about fans, they tried to make it seem like they were doing the fans a favour by not raising the ticket prices... like comon
4) The fans pay for the tickets, they pay for the television stations to watch the games, ultimatley its our dollars that are going towards helping teams like Arizona and Florida.
i know what your saying, but i 100% disagree
BlueBaron
Registered User
I would wait until a few weeks into next season before declaring a revolution. The Leafs are such a habit and big part of Toronto culture that the average fan is not going to take all this failure as personally as some of our friends here do. Most will say " We'll get em next year " and go on with their lives.
wow. idk what to say about this post but:
1) idc how we win, as long as we win
2) didn't realize everyone in pittsburgh hates that they won the lottery to get crosby, they probably all hate hockey knowing that they were gift wrapped a winner
3) MLSE cares more about making a profit than it does about fans, they tried to make it seem like they were doing the fans a favour by not raising the ticket prices... like comon
4) The fans pay for the tickets, they pay for the television stations to watch the games, ultimatley its our dollars that are going towards helping teams like Arizona and Florida.
i know what your saying, but i 100% disagree
I don't entirely disagree with you on a lot of what you said actually, just a couple of the finer points. Everything is mostly your opinion which is fine, we're obviously different people so our stances on rigging and what not will be coloured by who we are. I don't believe that Pittsburgh was gift wrapped a winner, which is why I don't think anyone in Pittsburgh cares. I think they just got lucky. Again, with McDavid, we'll never know, but I'll never advocate for us to be handed McDavid, I just pray to the hockey gods that it happens. If there was a scandal that came out a year later with proof that the lottery was rigged in the Leafs favour I probabaly wouldn't be a huge fan to be honest, it would taint every win. But I also have a second team to support so I may not be as diehard as others.
I also fundamentally disagree with you on the last point, you've made the decision to spend the money and the money isn't yours anymore. If MLSE chooses to hep grow the game insteadif pocketing it for themselves, that's their prerogative, not mine, because again, I gave them the money, and they gave me some entertainment. That's about as far as my involvement with the money goes.
The league's only here to take the $$ via revenue sharing to keep teams alive on life support. But then again, it's not like the fans would ever see their $$ back if the NHL wasn't taking it, so I guess it doesn't really matter where it goes.
Northernguy10
Registered User
The league owes us nothing.Only our ownership and management is to blame.I feel the OP's pain and agree with him 100% except expecting the league to reward us for something we don't deserve.
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