The Development thread

[26Mats]

« Developpement » is a word, a term, over estimated here, on this board. I mean. 95% of the developpement of a player remain by him and 5% will be by the help of the coaching staff. How joel bouchard developped Nick Suzuki? He did absolutely nothing, this guy didnt need his « developpement ». He was already good. When a player need developpement. Its because hes gonna be a role player. You don’t developp during 2/3 years in the AHL a next superstar in the NHL. Sorry

Suzuki had two more years of development after his draft year...

Did you watxh the last Dance? Even Jordan's developmental years were crucial to him becoming the player he became.

 

[Hins77]

Suzuki had two more years of development after his draft year...

Did you watxh the last Dance? Even Jordan's developmental years were crucial to him becoming the player he became.

I mean. Its just too much easy to put the blame on this organization about bad developpement. Imo, the main problem is at the bottom. Is Poehling prefer playing fortnite or training at gym? Is sherbak prefered to be on instagram or training on ice? I think the good or bad habits of every player will predicted where hes gonna play. And if montreal decide to up/ down peohling, thats their choice. This is not suppose to break a career, but help him. And at the end, if you are not quick enough, skill enough, strong enough to play in the NHL. It happens, this is the best league in the world. If poehling become a 3rd liner. I will be very happy for him

 

[montreal]

« Developpement » is a word, a term, over estimated here, on this board. I mean. 95% of the developpement of a player remain by him and 5% will be by the help of the coaching staff. How joel bouchard developped Nick Suzuki? He did absolutely nothing, this guy didnt need his « developpement ». He was already good. When a player need developpement. Its because hes gonna be a role player. You don’t developp during 2/3 years in the AHL a next superstar in the NHL. Sorry

where do you get 95% from? Plus you can't put all players in the same boat, how many have the insane skill level, IQ, and confidence that Suzuki has? Players like him are highly unlikely to bust because of those factors. His problems were based on the physical tools department of skating, speed, strength, mass. He's made impressive strides there since being drafted which shows his character.

For many other players they just don't have his skills, they don't have his IQ and they damn sure don't have his confidence which imo is massive.

I will never believe that the average hockey player can just develop on his own as I have had both good and bad coaches so it leads me to believe that with the right coach they can get the most out of you while others just can't figure out what works best for said player. Personally I am a very big believer in proper coaching and development, I never understood how anyone can dismiss it but let's face it HF is not known so much for it's knowledge and more for it's opinions, everyone has them but they are all based on different levels of knowledge and understanding. I find most can't see the forest through the trees and that's not meant as a slight, just an observation from many many years of being on HF. A lot of posters love to share their opinions but not that many have put in the time watching juniors, NCAA, USHS, USHL, Euro leagues, talked to scouts, coaches, players that are junior aged, people in the media, etc..

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

Well, when it comes to development, the organization surely has a putrid record.

Poehling hasn't done much in Laval this season. Vejdemo, Juulsen and Hudon are not panning out. KK has regressed and the media likes to give us hope he's doing well in Laval. Mete, Lek and Evans are presented as the future, but they can't bring their game to the next level. Suzuki was rushed, he is playing well but was not drafted by the organization.

The reality is that MB likes to go after plugs because he can't attract a big fish and later trades 4th liners for late round picks. Then, won't sign the drafted players. He chased away the Russians in the past and suddenly welcomes a bunch with open arms.

He loaded up again with reclamation projects last trade deadline. I am pretty sure that the Sturtz, Luchuks, Lucchinis and Blandisis of this world will become future NHLers someday, who are approaching their mid twenties over the Fonstads, McShanes and Houles who have just turned or will turn 20 in a few months.

Which player did the Habs develop that actually became of something as of late?

 

[Kriss E]

I mean. Its just too much easy to put the blame on this organization about bad developpement. Imo, the main problem is at the bottom. Is Poehling prefer playing fortnite or training at gym? Is sherbak prefered to be on instagram or training on ice? I think the good or bad habits of every player will predicted where hes gonna play. And if montreal decide to up/ down peohling, thats their choice. This is not suppose to break a career, but help him. And at the end, if you are not quick enough, skill enough, strong enough to play in the NHL. It happens, this is the best league in the world. If poehling become a 3rd liner. I will be very happy for him

Even in the things you mentioned falls on the players, you don't realize half of the work comes from the organization.
What training is he doing in the gym and on the ice? How are they being guided and supervised? That's on the organization.

Sometimes, it's not on the organization. Sherbak had bad runs with injuries and his commitment was apparently questionable. In other instances, not so much, like KK going on a dumb 20lbs bulk training program last summer.

 

[calder candidate]

Even in the things you mentioned falls on the players, you don't realize half of the work comes from the organization.
What training is he doing in the gym and on the ice? How are they being guided and supervised? That's on the organization.

Sometimes, it's not on the organization. Sherbak had bad runs with injuries and his commitment was apparently questionable. In other instances, not so much, like KK going on a dumb 20lbs bulk training program last summer.

The real work is done by the player. All the team can basically supply the exact same things coaches, trainers, facility, equipment what will be the deciding factor is how the player feel in the environment which help keep the fun /internal motivation. It is the team job to create a environment that will able all player to remain engage able to maximize is own potential. Some team / staff are better than others.

 

[Kriss E]

The real work is done by the player. All the team can basically supply the exact same things coaches, trainers, facility, equipment what will be the deciding factor is how the player feel in the environment which help keep the fun /internal motivation. It is the team job to create a environment that will able all player to remain engage able to maximize is own potential. Some team / staff are better than others.

There is no way to quantify who's responsible for what percentage. Is it 75% on the player 25% on the team? Or 95% vs 5%...or 84% vs 16%...Impossible to know, so I just go with 50-50.
The player has to walk through the door but they have to show them the way.

 

[montreal]

The real work is done by the player. All the team can basically supply the exact same things coaches, trainers, facility, equipment what will be the deciding factor is how the player feel in the environment which help keep the fun /internal motivation. It is the team job to create a environment that will able all player to remain engage able to maximize is own potential. Some team / staff are better than others.

Guy Boucher had interesting things to say about coaching younger players in today's world, his background education imo makes someone like him a good fit for younger players (juniors or AHL). But that's the thing all coaches are different, they handle players differently, their knowledge of not just hockey but people and how to interact with them, how to bring the best of them etc.. There's just so many factors going on here, that's why imo I will never buy into coaching/development not being very impactful and important.

The one thing I don't understand is why the Habs don't have their own personal skating coach that works with the prospects the day after they are drafted. That should be a huge priority imo especially since they have drafted so many players with skating issues (Kotka, Galchenyuk, Leblanc, etc..)

 

[calder candidate]

There is no way to quantify who's responsible for what percentage. Is it 75% on the player 25% on the team? Or 95% vs 5%...or 84% vs 16%...Impossible to know, so I just go with 50-50.
The player has to walk through the door but they have to show them the way.

100% of the work has to be done by the player and the team is 100% responsible to make sure that the player environnement and condition are optimal for him stay be and stay engaged. Everyone is different but regardless if you just give him the map, show him the way or carry him all the way the objective is the same. If most aren’t moving Fw or getting lost along the way... As a organisation you can blame the players all you want but ultimately you’ll have to live with the consequences not the player... sometimes you will have to sacrifice one so that the rest can make it... But ultimately everyone able to develop or improve if they have enough internal motivation and support. Habs just haven’t been able to get the most from the majority of their picks and it not just because they made bad picks.

 

[calder candidate]

Guy Boucher had interesting things to say about coaching younger players in today's world, his background education imo makes someone like him a good fit for younger players (juniors or AHL). But that's the thing all coaches are different, they handle players differently, their knowledge of not just hockey but people and how to interact with them, how to bring the best of them etc.. There's just so many factors going on here, that's why imo I will never buy into coaching/development not being very impactful and important.

The one thing I don't understand is why the Habs don't have their own personal skating coach that works with the prospects the day after they are drafted. That should be a huge priority imo especially since they have drafted so many players with skating issues (Kotka, Galchenyuk, Leblanc, etc..)

Especially since there isn’t any any limit to the amount of money you can spend... Mtl should have a full staff for skating, training, dietary, most of these job are even that well paid or don’t usually offer lot of stability or prestige the habs could get a world class team for pennies... Jordan trainner review every game to count the amount of jumps, step and direction so that he could adjust the following training. That is the kind of attention to detail that should be given to everyone of the players.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Especially since there isn’t any any limit to the amount of money you can spend... Mtl should have a full staff for skating, training, dietary, most of these job are even that well paid or don’t usually offer lot of stability or prestige the habs could get a world class team for pennies... Jordan trainner review every game to count the amount of jumps, step and direction so that he could adjust the following training. That is the kind of attention to detail that should be given to everyone of the players.

With all that money, Bergevin could promote one of his gym buddies into a high hockey ops role to do nothing.

 

[MrNasty]

Well, when it comes to development, the organization surely has a putrid record.

Poehling hasn't done much in Laval this season. Vejdemo, Juulsen and Hudon are not panning out. KK has regressed and the media likes to give us hope he's doing well in Laval. Mete, Lek and Evans are presented as the future, but they can't bring their game to the next level. Suzuki was rushed, he is playing well but was not drafted by the organization.

The reality is that MB likes to go after plugs because he can't attract a big fish and later trades 4th liners for late round picks. Then, won't sign the drafted players. He chased away the Russians in the past and suddenly welcomes a bunch with open arms.

He loaded up again with reclamation projects last trade deadline. I am pretty sure that the Sturtz, Luchuks, Lucchinis and Blandisis of this world will become future NHLers someday, who are approaching their mid twenties over the Fonstads, McShanes and Houles who have just turned or will turn 20 in a few months.

Which player did the Habs develop that actually became of something as of late?

I would argue the opposite. Vejdemo was drafted 87th overall and only 1 player in the 25 picks ahead of him have had more success in the NHL and a handful drafted after him over the next 4 rounds.
Hudon was drafted 122nd overall. Again, only a handful of guys drafted after him made the NHL.
Juulsen is still likely to play in the NHL and that is expected of late 1st round picks as bottom half of the team players. 3 of the 4 picks after him in the 1st round have yet to make the NHL and less than 1/3 of the 2nd round picks that year have made the NHL.

It is an unrealistic expectation to assume anyone drafted will make the NHL and really unrealistic to expect everyone drafted after the middle of the 2nd round to.

 

[montreal]

One interesting case is McCarron. he lights up the AHL in his first month as a pro, puts up 20 pts and then between his call ups and being sent back he picks up only 18 pts the rest of the season. Now you know something is not right when a 20 year old rookie goes from 20 pts in 21 games or so and then gets 18 in 37 or so games. He once again gets the yo-yo treatment the following season as he played a career high 31 NHL games while doing very little.

By his 3rd pro season he looks totally lost on the ice, not sure what kind of game he should be playing, as he was in the top 6 and PP but played mostly with ECHLers on his wings so he would go from trying to create offense to then trying to be the tough guy. It was just like he couldn't figure out what his role was, he looked like shit but they still managed to call him up towards the end of the season if I recall correctly.

So you would think he's done but he hires a skating coach in the off-season, gets a new coach in Laval with Bouchard and the guy was playing his best hockey by far only to get a shoulder injury and miss the rest of the season.

So here you have a guy that in his first 3 pro seasons just regresses each year and declines to where he looked like an ECHLer. Then in his 4th pro season under a different coach , no yo-yo treatment, no NHL call ups, he's playing his best hockey as a pro. Now the question is how much impact did the coaching change have on his development, or was it because he finally figured out that he needed to hire a skating coach in the off-season and was actually showing good improvement there.

Now things didn't work out with Bouchard this year and that's too bad as he was able to stay healthy and it was the first time that he came close to scoring the same number of goals he had in his rookie year (17 1st year, 15 5th year), now last year he likely would have as well if he didn't miss over half the season as he was on pace for a career high 50 pts.

 

[ahmedou]

Développement : Les équipes cherchent des solutions

“Francis Bouillon (entraîneur au développement des Canadiens): Il faut se réinventer un peu, mais ce qui reste toujours là, c'est la communication avec les joueurs. Les joueurs ont tous reçu un programme d'entraînement bâti selon l'équipement qu'ils avaient sous la main à la maison. On demeure en communication avec eux pour voir comment ils s'entraînent et comment ils se portent. C'est sûr qu'il va y avoir un manque parce qu'il y a des étapes qui ne seront pas là, comme le camp de développement, mais on travaille sur des projets pour tenter de nous regrouper virtuellement. C'est le défi chez les Canadiens, et c'est aussi celui des 30 autres formations. Tout le monde s'affaire à trouver des solutions.”

 

[ahmedou]

16)Montreal Canadiens (1155 Games)

 

[CHwest]

There is no way to quantify who's responsible for what percentage. Is it 75% on the player 25% on the team? Or 95% vs 5%...or 84% vs 16%...Impossible to know, so I just go with 50-50.
The player has to walk through the door but they have to show them the way.

Two parts: the team supplies the means, the player supplies the work and desire. When both are maximized it is a thing of beauty.

 

[ahmedou]

 

[ahmedou]

Terry Ryan: Un ancien choix de 1er tour (8ème au total) en a longtemps voulu à Michel Therrien

«C’est un portrait négatif qui a été dessiné sur mon passage dans l’organisation. C’est le type de joueur qu’ils voulaient que je sois (bagarreur). Et c’était difficile de marquer des buts et de se battre tous les soirs dans cette section de la Ligue américaine!»

«Il (Therrien) voulait des soldats qui ne célèbrent pas après chaque but et qui n’avaient pas de personnalités spéciales.»

«Il (Houle) a été gentil avec moi. Il m’a dit qu’il aimerait me voir avec le nouveau club-école de Québec et qu’il me voyait comme capitaine. J’ai répondu "Quoi? Pourquoi m’as-tu choisi au premier tour? Moi je veux jouer avec le club!" Il a rétorqué "je ne t’ai pas sélectionné au premier tour".»

[]

 

[ahmedou]

FACTS: AHL = DEVELOPMENT LEAGUE

 

[ahmedou]

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

It also speaks volumes about the problem in minor hockey here. Too many talented kids don't get to play midget AAA due to politics.

Which is related to hockey costing too much for a great part of the population. It's becoming an elitist sport, where most kids are from wealthy families. Either the province wakes up and injects money to promote hockey development, reducing the costs on poorer families, or the number of players drafted out of the Q, or at least gone through Mid-AAA, will keep dwindling.

Because of economics, we're forsaking part of our talent pool.

 

[ahmedou]

#MontrealCanadiens1993(Roster)

 

[OldCraig71]

With all that money, Bergevin could promote one of his gym buddies into a high hockey ops role to do nothing.

Couldn't skate for shit during his pro days but had lots of character and also, lots of muscle! Perfect for the job!

 

[ahmedou]

Mike Ribeiro : Interview La Poche Bleue (Article)

« Quand j’ai commencé ma carrière, c’était gros. Je suis encore un peu déçu de comment on m’a utilisé. Je jouais junior, on me faisait jouer 25 minutes. Et dans la LNH, je jouais sur la quatrième ligne et on me disait que je devais produire. C’est impossible. Si on m’avait utilisé différemment, j’aurais commencé ma carrière plus rapidement. La production que j’ai eue à Dallas, je l’aurais eue plus rapidement.»

 

[ahmedou]

Developing on the farm: Bouchard

"They're individuals, right? That means we must work with them on an individual basis, first and foremost. You need to talk to them. It's that simple. But that's just the first step. When things are going right, you need to work on getting better, when things are going wrong, you need to identify the issues and solve them.”

“Mistakes aren't necessarily a bad thing. We need to let young players make mistakes in the AHL. It's a development league, after all. They can't be afraid of it, but it also has to be addressed.”