The Development thread

[417]

I could add the name of Patrice Bergeron there too. But there are no examples that will always be at 100%. Giving me the names of 10-15 guys playing at 18 and not being exceptionals won't cut it. 'Cause at one point, 95% of the cases that proves it kind of outweigh the 5% that don't.

The NHL for me is not a development league for 18 year old UNLESS you have a plan to tank. And you know that I wouldn't have any problem with that. And maybe with the idea that we'd tank, we'd surprise ourselves and do better.

It depends on the structure of your team...I do agree with you, I can give the names of 10-15 guys who played at 18yrs old and weren't exceptional just like you can give me the same amount of names who played at 18-19 and were rushed.

A young player should be developing, no matter where he's playing, as long as he's playing. If that's the AHL so be it, if that's the NHL, so be it.

I think one of the biggest myths there is, is that the NHL is not a developmental league (I know that's not quite what you said above).

 

[Censored Toad]

I already had it done this summer when I looked a several other things... It in this sheet but sorted out by a different category. Yes, every other team falls below the Wings.

Wow that seems like alot of work ! Kudos to you.

Thanks

 

[Whitesnake]

It depends on the structure of your team...I do agree with you, I can give the names of 10-15 guys who played at 18yrs old and weren't exceptional just like you can give me the same amount of names who played at 18-19 and were rushed.

A young player should be developing, no matter where he's playing, as long as he's playing. If that's the AHL so be it, if that's the NHL, so be it.

I think one of the biggest myths there is, is that the NHL is not a developmental league (I know that's not quite what you said above).

But it's not solely about giving you names of kids that were rushed. It's about team taking their time with most of them and not having to babysit the kids once t hey are ready at 20-21 or 22.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I'm bumping this thread because I can't believe some people think development doesnt exist.

Both Ferraro and McGuire were talking about how different things can influence how a player ends up playing.

But, it got me thinking about Fleury. He didn't look anywhere near ready at the beginning of last year. He then had the chance to play under Bouchard, play consistently and learn the pro game, the speed of it and the different aspects he needed to add to his game.

Apparently, some posters here think that had he played 12 minutes a game, was benched for multiple games, didnt get any special teams and was called out in the media last year that he'd have ended up being the exact same player this year.

This is supposed to make sense... How ?

I want these young players that need the ice time and to round out their game while translating their offense to do so in the right environment. This management has done a fairly good job surrounding them with good veterans, but its done an awful job rushing them.

Not only this, but I think spending whatever rest of the season with Bouchard would do wonders for KK.

Dominating organizational philosophy of profi.. erg.. playoffs above all else is hindering the decision making.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

The Development Thread aka how to blame management for when your draft crushes bust

I wanted Hughes at the draft, but I still think KK is being mismanaged, so there goes your theory, down the drain.

 

[Censored Toad]

I wanted Hughes at the draft, but I still think KK is being mismanaged, so there goes your theory, down the drain.

No no Ozy you don't get it.... Marc knows whats best. its Above you, its above me. Its big picture stuff we won't understand.. Only Marc knows.

Man.. i bet you feel silly like if you had egg all over your face....

 

[Frank Drebin]

Kids aren't any more or any less likely to make mistakes in comparisons to veterans. That's just an antiquated mentality that unfortunately, most NHL coaches have and I find it's bull**** to be honest.

We've watched Nick Suzuki make mistakes this year, just like we've watched Shea Weber make mistakes this year.


Agreed with this - very frustrating.

What?

You don't think inexperienced kids are more prone to mistakes than experienced vets?

 

[groovejuice]

The Development Thread aka how to blame management for when your draft crushes bust

Sure. If you weren't paying attention at all since the beginning of the dark era of Bergevin.

Sylvain Levebvre was quoted as saying his job wasn't to develop players, and he took great pleasure in saying so.

I'm not suggesting that the drafting hasn't been questionable, because it's quite clear that it has. But there's no doubt in my mind, and that of many others, that Bergevin et al have come up well short of what would be considered professional level development.

 

[JoelWarlord]

What?

You don't think inexperienced kids are more prone to mistakes than experienced vets?

In my opinion probably not, or at the very least not anywhere near as much as we would intuitively think. The average young player is going to make more mistakes but I think that's less about experience and more that the average U23 player is just flat out not as good as the average veteran NHLer for a variety of reasons of which decision making/"mistake prone-ness" are just one of many factors.

For some examples off the top of my head, Otto Leskinen is more mistake-prone than Christian Folin, but I don't think Cale Fleury is. Nick Suzuki is way less mistake-prone than Jonathan Drouin or Max Domi. Victor Mete was less mistake-prone at 19 than Karl Alzner was at 29. I don't think that's because Fleury or Mete are unique/special prospects, they're just good young players and they're overall better players than some of the veterans they played with. Suzuki is a good prospect of course, but I don't think he's a special/unique prospect compared to Drouin or Domi either.

 

[Frank Drebin]

In my opinion probably not, or at the very least not anywhere near as much as we would intuitively think. The average young player is going to make more mistakes but I think that's less about experience and more that the average U23 player is just flat out not as good as the average veteran NHLer for a variety of reasons of which decision making/"mistake prone-ness" are just one of many factors. I definitely think that decision making gets better with experience, but to me it doesn't matter where the mistake comes from. If a veteran knows the right play but makes a mistake because he's too slow to make it in time, that's no better or worse than a young player making a mistake from a poor decision.

For some examples off the top of my head, Otto Leskinen is more mistake-prone than Christian Folin, but I don't think Cale Fleury is. Nick Suzuki is way less mistake-prone than Jonathan Drouin or Max Domi. Victor Mete was less mistake-prone at 19 than Karl Alzner was at 29. I don't think that's because Fleury or Mete are unique/special prospects, they're just good young players and they're overall better players than some of the veterans they played with. Suzuki is a good prospect of course, but I don't think he's a special/unique prospect compared to Drouin or Domi either.

Oh ok. I agree with your perspective there. A good rookie is better than a poor veteran.

But individually, a player will make less mistakes as they get more experience

 

[Frank Drebin]

I'm bumping this thread because I can't believe some people think development doesnt exist.

I don't think anyone actually believes that. Even if they say it, they don't actually believe it.

As long as a player is playing in some capacity and maturing, they are developing.

Are there more or less ideal ways to develop a player to help their chances of success? Probably.

Does a proper development path mean the difference between Nikita sherbak and David pastrnak? Nah, of course not.

The reason why we're not developing stars on this team is because we're not drafting them in the first place.

 

[montreal]

As long as a player is playing in some capacity and maturing, they are developing.

that's not true though, it's the context that matters, if you put Kotka in a beer league, he's playing but not developing.

 

[417]

What?

You don't think inexperienced kids are more prone to mistakes than experienced vets?

Hockey is a game of mistakes... and mistakes are made by young and old.

So no, I don't think kids are more prone to mistakes then vets.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Wow that seems like alot of work ! Kudos to you.

Thanks

Sucks that I don’t have live stat tracking. Takes about a day to update everyone’s point totals so I do it in the summer only. It’s done in excel so the formulas are all completed now which is a lot time!

Curious about how this year will move us in rankings though! Will be very interesting to see how the Habs do in development! Next time I update it, I’ll factor in goalies somehow. Got a few other ideas too

 

[montreal]

some interesting quote from Timmins,

I was talking about development; Whenever you can play with your age group at a higher level, it allows you to raise your level of play. If you are successful in a situation like this, it brings confidence, and we know all how important confidence is in professional hockey. It improves your performance.

It is very important for young players to play at levels where they are able to dominate, to get a lot of playing time and to gain that confidence to ensure a quick and smooth transition among professionals, where they measure to men

I wish they put this into practice although he's not in charge of call ups.

Also I've said it over and over but to me some just don't seem to understand how important confidence is and how much damage it can do when you lose it as it can be very hard to get back and that can have a massive impact on your game.

 

[Whitesnake]

some interesting quote from Timmins,



I wish they put this into practice although he's not in charge of call ups.

Also I've said it over and over but to me some just don't seem to understand how important confidence is and how much damage it can do when you lose it as it can be very hard to get back and that can have a massive impact on your game.

And I've been saying that for so many years now. Yet, something doesn't work. Timmins is the assistant GM and in charge of prospects. Yet, plenty of prospects of this team don't do what he is just saying. So either this guy have no problem not being listened to. Or he just doesn't believe in what he just said.

 

[montreal]

And I've been saying that for so many years now. Yet, something doesn't work. Timmins is the assistant GM and in charge of prospects. Yet, plenty of prospects of this team don't do what he is just saying. So either this guy have no problem not being listened to. Or he just doesn't believe in what he just said.

well he's not in charge though, although we don't know who says what to whom, do they listen to Bouchard and Lefebvre in the past, were these guys saying yes to the call ups or did they offer words of caution? How much say does Julien have. Who's idea was it to call up Poehling the first time and then Primeau?

But one thing I know was from reading something Lapointe said about Will Bitten, that they wanted him to stop trying to check players into the 3rd row and instead focus on just trying to separate the puck from the player or something to that effect. I watched him that final year of juniors and he was still trying to hit guys often and I thought he clearly isn't listening and then he gets traded. So was it because they felt he didn't listen or just thought he was worth trading?

 

[Whitesnake]

well he's not in charge though, although we don't know who says what to whom, do they listen to Bouchard and Lefebvre in the past, were these guys saying yes to the call ups or did they offer words of caution? How much say does Julien have. Who's idea was it to call up Poehling the first time and then Primeau?

But one thing I know was from reading something Lapointe said about Will Bitten, that they wanted him to stop trying to check players into the 3rd row and instead focus on just trying to separate the puck from the player or something to that effect. I watched him that final year of juniors and he was still trying to hit guys often and I thought he clearly isn't listening and then he gets traded. So was it because they felt he didn't listen or just thought he was worth trading?

I know he's not...but if your most important idea isn't followed....and if like some people keep saying he is surely desired by every other team out there....why wouldn't you want to go to a place that will listen to you? As far as Bitten is concerned, it's surely a mix of a lot of things, but I think that most importantly, it's the attraction of Olofsson and the possibility to give out a prospect that did not evaluate anymore as a must.

 

[Beer and Chips]

Fans have to start taking part of the blame. Play the kids instead of this or that supposed stiff!

 

[DAChampion]

The 2012 NHL entry draft is, with hindsight, one of the all-time worst drafts. However, it was not expected to be. I remember the discussions at the time. Nail Yakupov was seen as a future 50-goal scorer and Habs fans were sad that they did not get the 1st overall pick. Ryan Murray was seen as a franchise D, though maybe his injuries derailed him. And Galchenyuk was seen as a future franchise C, people compared him to Toews, Kopitar, and Hossa.

None of us can be 100% certain of the truth of drafting versus development for each individual player. But for fun, I'm going to compare what happened with Galchenyuk versus guys that the Habs might have drafted instead.

Alex Galchenyuk, 3rd overall, the guy the Habs drafted
109 CHL games and 7 WJC games played prior to entering the NHL.
12:19 TOI/game in his rookie season, 14:24 TOI/game in his second season.

Morgan Rielly, 5th overall, the guy Bergevin claims he wanted
154 CHL games, 14 AHL games, and 6 WJC games played prior to entering the NHL,
17:38 TOI/game in his first full season, 20:20 in his second full season

Filip Forsberg, 11th overall, the most successful player of that draft year, that many fans wanted
91 games in Sweden prior to entering the NHL, also got 47 AHL games and 19 WJC games.
17:20 TOI/game in his first full season (2014-2015), 19:03 TOI/game in his second season.

Teuvo Terevainen, 18th overall, the guy that Timmins was rumored as considering at the time
137 games played in Finland prior to entering the NHL, also got 13 WJC games, and 44 AHL games
12:47 in 2014-2015, where he was a rookie and played half a season. In his first full-season, he played 15:21 per game.

Relative to the more successful players of his draft -- which is already a biased comparison -- Galchenyuk was hampered by inferior development. The other players typically had ~50 additional pre-NHL games relative to him, were given more ice time to develop in their first year, and more ice time in their second year. It may be that those players would have turned out better regardless -- but it is also the case that they got superior development. They were not rushed to the NHL so that they could spend more time sitting on the bench.

 

[Wats]

As much as I hate the way this organization is developing Kotkaniemi, Poehling, Mete, Fleury, gotta give credit for Suzuki.

 

[montreal]

As much as I hate the was this organization is developing Kotkaniemi, Poehling, Mete, Fleury, gotta give credit for Suzuki.

for sure, Suzuki is certainly giving hope that we could finally have something big in terms production in a few years. But we also have to make sure we don't get carried away as there was a ton of praise after Galchenyuk and Kotka's first season and look how things turned out for one and the other certainly has fans worried of a repeat.

 

[ahmedou]

Un ancien expert du développement malmène le CH

 

[abo9]

As much as I hate the way this organization is developing Kotkaniemi, Poehling, Mete, Fleury, gotta give credit for Suzuki.

Gotta give credit for Gallagher too I guess. The organization did not have to develop Suzuki, he arrived in the organization with a really high floor. Any other organization should expect significant improvements from a kid with such a high floor. He scored 41 pts as a rookie 20 years old, he's got that 1st line =, near-ppg potential! Like Gallagher, he's a player that made it to the NHL in spite of Montreal, not thanks to Montreal's development. If he and other recent prospects come to become legit top 6 players in the league, I'll change my stance though. Kotkaniemi looked better when he came in than now.

Galchenyuk also comes to mind as an elite talent that came with a high floor and they stalled him there.

Un ancien expert du développement malmène le CH

I came to post this! For non-French speakers: A quebecois (ie habs fan) who was working as a development analyst with the Leafs shares how active they were in their player's development. And that he's disapointed in how Montreal does not develop talents. He's currently writing a book and a chapter will be dedicated to Montreal's failures in developing talented players like Galchenyuk, Fucale, Hudon, Beaulieu, Tinordi, McCarron, etc.

He concludes by stating that Poehling has problems manipulating the puck at high speed, which, if not properly taken care of, will lead him to become a 4th liner. When you don't control the puck well, you often lose the puck and the coach tells you to simplify your game, to dump the puck. This leads to becoming a 4th liner.

 

[Hins77]

« Developpement » is a word, a term, over estimated here, on this board. I mean. 95% of the developpement of a player remain by him and 5% will be by the help of the coaching staff. How joel bouchard developped Nick Suzuki? He did absolutely nothing, this guy didnt need his « developpement ». He was already good. When a player need developpement. Its because hes gonna be a role player. You don’t developp during 2/3 years in the AHL a next superstar in the NHL. Sorry