The Definition of Insanity...

[Little Fury]

Reinhart trade? I agree
but he also made some franchise changing moves that worked great in 2016-17

He blew assets and put himself in cap hell that set the franchise back long term. But ok.

I count one stupid move, the Reinhart trade, but his good moves outweigh the bad moves IMO
Tambo and MacT made stupid moves every season by signing awful UFAs and not addressing the real problems with the team

Hall trade, Lucic signing.

No one is defending MacT or Tambo, so I'm not sure what bearing they have on this.

they also made the playoffs once and finished above .500 six times since the Oilers last made the playoffs
care to know what the Oiler record was during that time? it not pretty
Leafs, despite being bad, were nowhere near as putrid as the Oilers from 2007-2014 thus Shannahan walked into a better situation then Chiarelli did...despite a so-called "talented" core.

"they weren't as bad as the worst team ever so therefore they were good" is another bizzaro argument.

If you think Shanahan was in a better spot because the team had made the playoffs once in 9 years and that in a truncated season, there's no arguing with you. It's a completely insane p.o.v. and is easily countered by the fact that Shanahan wasn't handed the world's best player on arrival.

my argument is "the Oilers never won until real change came" and that's a fact...come up with any excuse in the book you want, the results are there

You're literally arguing the Oilers wouldn't have "turned the corner" with the group I outlined, most of which is still here.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Hall trade, Lucic signing.

No one is defending MacT or Tambo, so I'm not sure what bearing they have on this.

Lucic actually outscored Hall in his first year while Larsson provided stability on the backend and I'm sorry you failed to see it

as for long term, well Hall is a UFA in a few years and who know what kind of season he has next year...the 53 point Hall or the 93 point Hall?
same with Lucic...

"they weren't as bad as the worst team ever so therefore they were good" is another bizzaro argument.

that not what I said at all lol

If you think Shanahan was in a better spot because the team had made the playoffs once in 9 years and that in a truncated season, there's no arguing with you. It's a completely insane p.o.v. and is easily countered by the fact that Shanahan wasn't handed the world's best player on arrival.

then best not to argue cause the Leafs franchise and the Oilers franchise weren't even comparable in terms of how bad the organizations were...Oilers continued to have bottom 3 finishes while collecting high draft picks...the Leafs actually showed some semblance of a winning team
on more than one occasion

You're literally arguing the Oilers wouldn't have "turned the corner" with the group I outlined, most of which is still here.

I'm saying I don't know if they would have won with the group outlined because there's no evidence of it

 

[Little Fury]

Lucic actually outscored Hall in his first year while Larsson provided stability on the backend and I'm sorry you failed to see it

Lucic scored fewer points and just three more goals than Hall in 10 more games playing with Connor McDavid. Stop peddling this idea that he was a replacement. He is and remains the inferior player and his contract is a serious problem as his performance slides. Larsson's fine, but not worth Hall.

that not what I said at all lol

You claim Shanahan was in a better situation despite having less talent to work with because the team wasn't quite as bad as the Oilers in the previous decade. It's a nonsense argument.

then best not to argue cause the Leafs franchise and the Oilers franchise weren't even comparable in terms of how bad the organizations were...Oilers continued to have bottom 3 finishes while collecting high draft picks...the Leafs actually showed some semblance of a winning team on more than one occasion

The comparison is between what Shanahan had to work with from Day One to what Chia had when he came on board. Here's the Leafs roster at the end of 2014. It's a lot like the Oilers' at the same point: a excellent winger (Hall/Kessel), some decent complimentary pieces (JVR/Kadri, RNH/Eberle) and a high end young D prospect (Reilly/Klefbom). The big difference is the Oilers had a few high end youngsters in the pipeline (Nurse, Draisaitl) that the Leafs had yet to acquire and of course the golden ticket.

I'm saying I don't know if they would have won with the group outlined because there's no evidence of it

Of course there's no evidence, that group never had a chance to play together for any meaningful period of time. But there's no reason to assume they wouldn't have improved.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Lucic scored fewer points and just three more goals than Hall in 10 more games playing with Connor McDavid. Stop peddling this idea that he was a replacement. He is and remains the inferior player and his contract is a serious problem as his performance slides. Larsson's fine, but not worth Hall.

yes, Lucic is inferior and so is Larsson in term of straight of value...doesn't mean Lucic didn't fill in Hall's goals for the season (don't fault Lucic cause Hall can't stay healthy)

You claim Shanahan was in a better situation despite having less talent to work with because the team wasn't quite as bad as the Oilers in the previous decade. It's a nonsense argument.

less talent...maybe in draft position only
but his situation was way better than the Oilers situation

The comparison is between what Shanahan had to work with from Day One to what Chia had when he came on board. Here's the Leafs roster at the end of 2014. It's a lot like the Oilers' at the same point: a excellent winger (Hall/Kessel), some decent complimentary pieces (JVR/Kadri, RNH/Eberle) and a high end young D prospect (Reilly/Klefbom). The big difference is the Oilers had a few high end youngsters in the pipeline (Nurse, Draisaitl) that the Leafs had yet to acquire and of course the golden ticket.

except, you know, a heck of a lot more NHLers on the roster in the form of Phaneuf, Bernier, Franson, Gardiner, Gunnarsson, Kulemin
as not just NHLers...NHLers that won hockey games to boot
Oilers, on the other hand, had Fayne, Ference, Nikitin, Scrivens, Fasth, Purcell...awful

Of course there's no evidence, that group never had a chance to play together for any meaningful period of time. But there's no reason to assume they wouldn't have improved.

but many of the arguments from people is that "had we kept Hall, we probably still have a great season" and the answer is we don't know..

 

[Soundwave]

Betting on Lucic to replace the long term offence of Taylor Hall was monumentally stupid.

 

[Little Fury]

yes, Lucic is inferior and so is Larsson in term of straight of value...doesn't mean Lucic didn't fill in Hall's goals for the season (don't fault Lucic cause Hall can't stay healthy)

Then what happened?

less talent...maybe in draft position only
but his situation was way better than the Oilers situation
except, you know, a heck of a lot more NHLers on the roster in the form of Phaneuf, Bernier, Franson, Gardiner, Gunnarsson, Kulemin
as not just NHLers...NHLers that won hockey games to boot
Oilers, on the other hand, had Fayne, Ference, Nikitin, Scrivens, Fasth, Purcell...awful

That list of Leafs is terrible. Gardiner is the only one there worth a spit.

Oh and they also didn't have the ticket to McDavid, which you keep ignoring for some strange reason...

but many of the arguments from people is that "had we kept Hall, we probably still have a great season" and the answer is we don't know..

Yes because we didn't keep Hall. But it's reasonable to assume that they would have improved unless you actually think Lucic and Larsson were the primary movers behind the team's 16-17 success.

 

[Little Fury]

Betting on Lucic to replace the long term offence of Taylor Hall was monumentally stupid.

It was a bad bet for a 7 year deal, but even the most negative of nellies wouldn't have had it going south after just one year. I thought they'd get at least two or three decent years out of him before the glue factory called.

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

It was a bad bet for a 7 year deal, but even the most negative of nellies wouldn't have had it going south after just one year. I thought they'd get at least two or three decent years out of him before the glue factory called.

Nonody should have the role of an NHL GM if a player they sign to a 7 year contract is only expected to be relevant for 2 or 3 years.
That was a franchise crippling contract that will set us back for quite some time.

 

[Little Fury]

Nonody should have the role of an NHL GM if a player they sign to a 7 year contract is only expected to be relevant for 2 or 3 years.
That was a franchise crippling contract that will set us back for quite some time.

Well, there's probably some expectation given the ways of the sports world that the end of these long term contracts will be someone else's problem, but in this case it's looking like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Then what happened?

he had a very poor second half
I guess we should write him off then?

That list of Leafs is terrible. Gardiner is the only one there worth a spit.

that list of "terrible" players got them into the playoffs and won 38 games in 13-14 lol...what does that say about the Oilers worse roster

Oh and they also didn't have the ticket to McDavid, which you keep ignoring for some strange reason...

no, only a ticket to a #1 overall pick and Calder winner the following year...

Yes because we didn't keep Hall. But it's reasonable to assume that they would have improved unless you actually think Lucic and Larsson were the primary movers behind the team's 16-17 success.

considering Lucic actually outscored Hall in 2016-17 and Larsson led the team in ES minutes and 2nd on the team in +/- I'd say they certainly were big movers in terms of the success we had in 2016-17

 

[Weitz]

Boy, I really don't understand how some of you can be such overly homer defenders of this team.

Best player in the world and won't make the playoffs again. Inexcusable. And if this team didn't have a brain dead idiot for an owner it would be total house cleaning.

 

[Drivesaitl]

This is something I touched on in another thread. I'll voice it here. Its a problem that this org keeps airlifting in hired help for its bottomsix or 4th line instead of developing their own tweeners for the role. When you hire in bottomsix role players they are usually those that are easily available that have expended their usefulness by then with original clubs that they played for. Meaning that the latest additions of guys like Brodz and Upshall are just continuing that trend. These obviously being place holders but also preventing an org player from being used. For instance the Oilers cast out Slepychev and Pakarinen, both of whom they failed to develop adequately. Both players were even at one point on a pretty good path until the org singled complete disinterest in them last season.

Now ironically this is the SAME thing the org did to Brodz. Just cast him out, disregarded the heart and soul the player brought. Bringing him in at age 34 doesn't right that wrong. The current wrong is giving up on current role players.

Leads me to my next point that the glue of most lineups is considered to be the middle age guys that keep a dressing room together. That span the chasm between young and old players. This being seemingly specifically required in hockey. You can't just have young and old. Players that are around 25-27 are very important, and who those players are.

The trouble is on the Oilers lineup these age 25-27 players are;

Caggiulia (useless)
Klefbom (I won't go into it)
Larsson (not oilers raised)
Kassian (bad attitude and not Oilers raised)
Strome (not Oilers raised)
Gravel (not Oilers raised)
Rieder (ditto)
Rattie (ditto)

We have one surviving player here from the fray.

Ryan Nugent Hopkins. Playing the role of lone survivor on LOST.

That's it.

Which is astounding from an org that started onset of rebuild planning around a decade ago and that had annual high, and top picks.

That we have no self raised tweeners here and have to airlift these guys in is a special kind of hell. Its worse that present management tossed several players in this age range away and considered them expendable.

 

[CupofOil]

I'm sorry Drive, but I have to do it....

 

[Drivesaitl]

I'm sorry Drive, but I have to do it....

heh, the post is right for this thread though isn't it? I mean look at the title, how off could I be....

jk aside you detect no signal to noise in the post? I think its worth re-evaluating as one of the reasons this team is still in the ditch and its completely on par with the theme of the thread being an org that somehow keeps doing the same things.

The Oilers in 09-10 decided to part ways with Brodziak, a character guy if ever there was one. A guy that would try to chew through a chain link fence if you asked him. At this exact time the Oilers had Hall, Eberle, players that could have used some of that org established character on the ice or in the room. Instead the org develops an ever since habit of just deciding to cut bait on its own and airlift in "character guys".

Ironically I could list a number of character guys this org brought in like Ryan Whitney and Ben Eager that should elicit laughs if anything.

But the key continuing point being an org devaluing its own and grass is always greener elsewhere.

Why do we even draft anything but high pick players? (I'm being sarcastic with that statement.

Now Nurse is left unsigned. The last player for the team to commit to and sign. Typical.

 

[Little Fury]

he had a very poor second half
I guess we should write him off then?

Let's just say I wouldn't count on him.

that list of "terrible" players got them into the playoffs and won 38 games in 13-14 lol...what does that say about the Oilers worse roster

It says you assign way too much importance to one fluke playoff appearance in a lockout-truncated season.

no, only a ticket to a #1 overall pick and Calder winner the following year...

Oh look, the goalposts are moving.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Let's just say I wouldn't count on him.

why not? he's been pretty consistent his whole career (unlike Hall)

It says you assign way too much importance to one fluke playoff appearance in a lockout-truncated season.

fine, pick the team that won 38 games the year after the lockout...in any case, despite not being very good, that team was light years ahead of the 24-win Oilers in 2014-15

Oh look, the goalposts are moving.

doesn't change the fact the Shanahan had more assets to work with when he got on board...talent don't mean crap if it doesn't translate to wins

 

[TheRebuild]

That we have no self raised tweeners here and have to airlift these guys in is a special kind of hell. Its worse that present management tossed several players in this age range away and considered them expendable.

It's just because the team doesn't know how to draft or develop players, that's all.

 

[Little Fury]

why not? he's been pretty consistent his whole career (unlike Hall)

He may not be over a cliff, but you can see it from here.

fine, pick the team that won 38 games the year after the lockout...in any case, despite not being very good, that team was light years ahead of the 24-win Oilers in 2014-15

Again, this is disingenuous because, again, the question is not "which team was better at the time" but "which team had the better foundation" which would include not just roster players like Hall, RNH and Eberle, but prospects like Drai, Nurse, Klefbom and, of course, McDavid.

doesn't change the fact the Shanahan had more assets to work with when he got on board...talent don't mean crap if it doesn't translate to wins

Except he didn't. You'd have to be either an ardent Leafs homer or hardcore Chia apologist to think that.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

He may not be over a cliff, but you can see it from here.

damn, according to this, his pts/60 improved from his previous year, there's hope for him yet

Again, this is disingenuous because, again, the question is not "which team was better at the time" but "which team had the better foundation" which would include not just roster players like Hall, RNH and Eberle, but prospects like Drai, Nurse, Klefbom and, of course, McDavid.

Chia had more raw talent than Shanny, but that doesn't mean the "foundation" was there...the winning culture (which you dismiss cause you can't quantify it), the drafting and development, the coaching are all part of the "foundation" IMO....and the Oilers were the worst in the league at it

Except he didn't. You'd have to be either an ardent Leafs homer or hardcore Chia apologist to think that.

disagree
there's a lot more NHLers on that team then what the Oilers had

 

[Little Fury]

damn, according to this, his pts/60 improved from his previous year, there's hope for him yet

Yeah he was hot garbage at evens in 16-17 and slightly improved last season even with his post-X-mas vanishing act. That said, I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

Chia had more raw talent than Shanny, but that doesn't mean the "foundation" was there...the winning culture (which you dismiss cause you can't quantify it), the drafting and development, the coaching are all part of the "foundation" IMO....and the Oilers were the worst in the league at it

I don't dismiss "winning culture." I see it as a byproduct of success, not a cause thereof.

As for the rest, yeah the Oilers's drafting sucked. So did the Leafs's pre-Shanahan. The coaching sucked. So did the Leafs's. Both teams were essentially starting from scratch in those areas, so that's another excuse you don't have.

disagree
there's a lot more NHLers on that team then what the Oilers had

OK let's put it this way: if you were starting a franchise from scratch, would you rather have Kessel, Bozak, Kadri, Phaneuf, Bernier, Gardiner, Kulemin and Reilly over Hall, RNH, Eberle, Schultz, Draisaitl, Klefbom, Nurse and Connor ****ing McDavid?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Yeah he was hot garbage at evens in 16-17 and slightly improved last season even with his post-X-mas vanishing act. That said, I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

it's an odd graph to show his production is falling when he's scored at least 20 goals and 50+ points in 3 of the last 4 season previous to last year..

I don't dismiss "winning culture." I see it as a byproduct of success, not a cause thereof.

As for the rest, yeah the Oilers's drafting sucked. So did the Leafs's pre-Shanahan. The coaching sucked. So did the Leafs's. Both teams were essentially starting from scratch in those areas, so that's another excuse you don't have.

yet, Shanahan took over a win that was 14 wins better than the Oilers were when Chiarelli took over...something you've yet to explain

OK let's put it this way: if you were starting a franchise from scratch, would you rather have Kessel, Bozak, Kadri, Phaneuf, Bernier, Gardiner, Kulemin and Reilly over Hall, RNH, Eberle, Schultz, Draisaitl, Klefbom, Nurse and Connor ****ing McDavid?

based on talent alone, of course it's the Oilers

based on the actual situations the 2 organizations were in, it's the Leafs

when the Leafs went "scorched Earth" they kept a lot of a lot of the pieces from previous regimes so their rebuild was "easier" with players like Reilly, Gardiner, JVR, Bozak and Kadri in the system

the Oilers had some talent and high draft picks...and literally nothing else of value from previous regimes
they had Ben f***ing Scrivens as their #1...had Andrew Ference, Nikitin, Fayne, Marincin....brutal

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

delete

 

[Little Fury]

it's an odd graph to show his production is falling when he's scored at least 20 goals and 50+ points in 3 of the last 4 season previous to last year..

Did you miss the big 5v5 on the top?

yet, Shanahan took over a win that was 14 wins better than the Oilers were when Chiarelli took over...something you've yet to explain

What's to explain? For the millionth time, the debate isn't which team was better, but which GM was set up better.

based on talent alone, of course it's the Oilers

based on the actual situations the 2 organizations were in, it's the Leafs

when the Leafs went "scorched Earth" they kept a lot of a lot of the pieces from previous regimes so their rebuild was "easier" with players like Reilly, Gardiner, JVR, Bozak and Kadri in the system

the Oilers had some talent and high draft picks...and literally nothing else of value from previous regimes
they had Ben ****ing Scrivens as their #1...had Andrew Ference, Nikitin, Fayne, Marincin....brutal

So Hall, RNH, Eberle, Draisaitl and Klefbom just...didn't exist?

There's no way the Leafs "situation" was better. Their pipeline was empty. They had several bloated contracts on the books that needed to go before they could take the next steps.

The biggest difference is the Leafs were actually trying to rebuild and had the patience to do it right.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Did you miss the big 5v5 on the top?

so? 5v5 point count for more now?

What's to explain? For the millionth time, the debate isn't which team was better, but which GM was set up better.

yeah, and the Leafs were set up better for the millionth time...actually 14 wins better

So Hall, RNH, Eberle, Draisaitl and Klefbom just...didn't exist?

so a Taylor Hall coming off an injury-plagued 38 point season
Jordan Eberle
a stagnant RNH
a rookie in Draisaitl
and a rookie in Klefbom

so set up better how? because of a disappointing crop of talent that couldn't muster even 25 wins in a season surrounded by Purcell, Fayne, Ference, Niktin and Marincin with Scrivens as a #1, also missing the playoffs for the 9th year in a row?

what an organization to come into

 

[Little Fury]

so? 5v5 point count for more now?

We need to get into this again, huh?

yeah, and the Leafs were set up better for the millionth time...actually 14 wins better

You ever hear the phrase "past performance may not be indicative of future results"? It applies here.

Makes you wonder why the Leafs even bothered with a rebuild since what they were doing was working so well.

so a Taylor Hall coming off an injury-plagued 38 point season
Jordan Eberle
a stagnant RNH
a rookie in Draisaitl
and a rookie in Klefbom

so set up better how?

You're gonna argue this while touting a bunch of Leafs players who were not any better?

Eberle=JVR
RNH=Kadri
Draisaitl=Bozak
Klefbom=Reilly

Hall is better than all of them, but Gardiner is a better D than any the Oilers had at that time so call it a wash.

Oilers hold the tiebreaker though.

because of a disappointing crop of talent that couldn't muster even 25 wins in a season surrounded by Purcell, Fayne, Ference, Niktin and Marincin with Scrivens as a #1, also missing the playoffs for the 9th year in a row?

what an organization to come into

You've already conceded the Oilers were better set up in terms of talent. The idea that the track record of the teams before that points in question is in any way meaningful is imply baffling.