The Definition of Insanity...

[Soundwave]

I’ve said it before and I will say it again.
No general manager could have had any better results with the players we had to trade. Look at this way MacT and Tambo completely sewered our assets we had to work with.
Schultz was thrown to the wolves and forced to play WAY over his head. Went for peanuts because his reputation was he was a bad player who lacked effort.
Hall was always being criticized as being a coach killer and a me first player. Traded for a number 2/3 stay at home workhorse.
Eberle had the worst year of his career and was labeled by many GM’s to be a lazy one dimensional winger. He was so bad in the playoffs he was playing on the 4th line.

We didn’t lose these deals because Chia is the worst GM in the league. We lost these deals because our players were tarnished from years of being bottom feeders. The only deal that Chia made that was terrible at the time and later was the Reinhart deal.

His FA record is questionable but on the trade front his hands were tied. Even the best GM in the league wouldn’t have faired any better because when you suck for a decade + right or wrong your players value is ****.

Then don't make a trade if you can't get decent value. There was no requirement to trade any of those players. That is a long list of excuses for terrible management and plenty of GMs could have done better. Toronto started with less and are already past us.

Calgary has probably a better than 50 50 shot of being better than us again and they've never even picked top 3 let alone having McLottery. Is Treliving a genius? Probably not, hes average to below average.

I'd take Treliving over Chiarelli any day. Shannahan/ Lou? No question.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Then don't make a trade if you can't get decent value. There was no requirement to trade any of those players.

thanks MacT, but the fanbase would've hung Chiarelli if he didn't change this team
this fanbase had no patience for "don't worry, we will win!...eventually"
easy to look back now in hindsight but fans were fed up of bottom 3 finishes

That is a long list of excuses for terrible management and plenty of GMs could have done better. Toronto started with less and are already past us.

huh? the Leafs had Kadri, Bozak, JVR, and Reilly...thats good core from the 2013 team had made the playoffs and a good core to "rebuild" with
they hardly started with less

 

[Wretched Oil]

.... is when you think you're better than the professionals

 

[Soundwave]

thanks MacT, but the fanbase would've hung Chiarelli if he didn't change this team
this fanbase had no patience for "don't worry, we will win!...eventually"
easy to look back now in hindsight but fans were fed up of bottom 3 finishes

huh? the Leafs had Kadri, Bozak, JVR, and Reilly...thats good core from the 2013 team had made the playoffs and a good core to "rebuild" with
they hardly started with less

Eh ... you're reaching pretty damn hard. Kadri was a 45 point player in those seasons. As of summer 2015

Hall > JVR
RNH > Kadri
Eberle > Bozak
Klefbom < Reilly
Schultz = Gardiner

Oilers had no.1 Overall (McDavid) >>> No. 4 Overall (Marner)
No. 15 Overall >> Toronto 2nd round pick.

Anyone who's saying they chose Toronto's situation to start with is a freaking liar. This is not even accounting for Draisaitl (no.3 overall) and Nurse (no.7 overall) already being in the Oilers system.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Eh ... you're reaching pretty damn hard. Kadri was a 45 point player in those seasons. As of summer 2015

Hall > JVR
RNH > Kadri
Eberle > Bozak
Klefbom < Reilly
Schultz = Gardiner

Oilers had no.1 Overall (McDavid) >>> No. 4 Overall (Marner)
No. 15 Overall >> Toronto 2nd round pick.

Anyone who's saying they chose Toronto's situation to start with is a freaking liar. This is not even accounting for Draisaitl (no.3 overall) and Nurse (no.7 overall) already being in the Oilers system.

geeze when you put it that way, and all that talent on the Oilers, it's not wonder the Oilers finished ahead of the Leafs...


once...

 

[Soundwave]

geeze when you put it that way, and all that talent on the Oilers, it's not wonder the Oilers finished ahead of the Leafs...


once...

Who has the better core to start with? Give an honest answer for once instead of defending dear leader.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Who has the better core to start with? Give an honest answer for once instead of defending dear leader.

Leafs
their core proved they can win hockey games by making the playoffs

our core proved that a collection of so-called "talent" doesn't win hockey games but does win draft lotteries

 

[Soundwave]

Leafs
their core proved they can win hockey games by making the playoffs

our core proved that a collection of so-called "talent" doesn't win hockey games but does win draft lotteries

Leafs minus Phil Kessel were not a playoff team. What was left of their core as of June 2015 was nowhere close to a playoff team. It's like saying the 2007 Oilers were a Cup finalist team because Ryan Smyth and Ales Hemsky were in the Finals the year before ... uh yeah. Doesn't mean shit without Chris Pronger.

Oilers got the benefit of McLottery. Imagine where Chia would be if he had to start with Mitch Marner (no.4) instead of Connor McDavid (no.1).

McDavid probably is a greater player than any player in the history of the Flames franchise, and yet there's a better than decent chance the Flames finish with more points than the Oilers again next year.

This is pure mismanagement, in fact it doesn't any more clear than this. You give Lou Lamorillo (good GM) or even Treliving (mediocre GM) this much to start with and they'd be miles ahead by now.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Leafs minus Phil Kessel were not a playoff team. What was left of their core as of June 2015 was nowhere close to a playoff team.

Oilers got the benefit of McLottery. Imagine where Chia would be if he had to start with Mitch Marner (no.4) instead of Connor McDavid (no.1).

of course, they decided to do a true re-build
doesn't mean they didn't have good pieces to build on

 

[Soundwave]

of course, they decided to do a true re-build
doesn't mean they didn't have good pieces to build on

Kadri was a middling player at that time, many people were calling for him to be traded.

JVR was most certainly not as good as Hall.

Chiarelli would've driven that team into the ground if he were given it. He'd do something stupid like trade JVR for peanuts to make way for Lucic, then deal Kadri for Ceci and wonder why things aren't turning out even if he got Matthews.

Zero chance the Leafs are in the good position they are today if they had hired this disaster of a GM.

Chiarelli would've also driven Calgary into the sewer and gotten bent over by both Gaudreau and Monahan's agents and given them both 8+ million deals.

In both Toronto and Calgary he'd probably be dumb enough to also sign Lucic to the same contract and then ending up capped out very quickly. Chiarelli in Calgary is such a beautiful thought, why couldn't they have hired him.

We could've snagged Hamilton from Boston at minimum and been on our merry way instead of being stuck in this nightmare.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

I mean if were being serious insanity is best defined by a shrink or psych student.

But basically a debilitating mental illness.

 

[CupofOil]

Then don't make a trade if you can't get decent value. There was no requirement to trade any of those players. That is a long list of excuses for terrible management and plenty of GMs could have done better. Toronto started with less and are already past us.

Calgary has probably a better than 50 50 shot of being better than us again and they've never even picked top 3 let alone having McLottery. Is Treliving a genius? Probably not, hes average to below average.

I'd take Treliving over Chiarelli any day. Shannahan/ Lou? No question.

I don't think Toronto is an example of a team built by great GMing. All of their high end talent (Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Kadri Rielly) was drafted. Gardiner was already signed previously and Andersen (like Talbot) was added via trade. Besides Andersen and a few depth guys, Shanahan and co, didn't really do much to reshape the roster. Also, they dealt their version of Hall (Kessel) for an even lesser return.
Talentwise (pre-Tavares), I don't think there's a big difference at all between the teams when you really think about it.

Matthews - McDavid
Marner-Draisaitl
Kadri-RNH
Nylander-Puljujarvi
JVR-Maroon
Marleau-Lucic
Bozak-Strome
Kapanen-Yamamoto
Hyman-Khaira

Rielly-Klefbom
Gardiner-Nurse
Zaitsev-Larsson
Hainsey-Sekera
Dermott-Benning
Whoever-Russell

Andersen-Talbot

When you look at those rosters on paper, can you honestly see a big disparity in talent? I honestly don't at all (Leafs more depth at forward, Oilers a bit better on D when healthy) and I think this is where good coaching (Special Teams in particular) comes into play. The Leafs play faster, more cohesive, much better PP. That's the big difference last season. Bottom line is that the Oilers need to start developing internally (need a step up from Puljujarvi like Nylander did) and to fix those Special Teams.

I'm not going to argue that Chia didn't bleed talent out of the organization but I wouldn't point to the Leafs as an organization that was built by Shanahan. Look at Poile and Yzerman as examples of GMs who built teams without the luxury of a bunch of high picks although they had a few themselves.

 

[Little Fury]

I don't think Toronto is an example of a team built by great GMing. All of their high end talent (Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Kadri Rielly) was drafted. Gardiner was already signed previously and Andersen (like Talbot) was added via trade. Besides Andersen and a few depth guys, Shanahan and co, didn't really do much to reshape the roster. Also, they dealt their version of Hall (Kessel) for an even lesser return.

You forget that they had to first clear the deck in order to rebuild. That meant dumping big contracts like Kessel, Phaneuf, Clarkson and Bolland. Oh and they completely nuked the coaching and front office staffs (while somehow, someway, MacT and Bob Green still have jobs that don't involve selling burgers.)

Players they added outside of the draft: Andersen, Zaistev, Hainsey, Kapanen, Hyman, Marleau, Tavares. So two of their top 6 D, their starting goalie and a god chunk of their forwards. I'm probably missing some players here as well.

Finally, as an Oilers fan I don't think you can hand wave away good drafting.

When you look at those rosters on paper, can you honestly see a big disparity in talent?

Yes. Just as an example: Nylander>>>>>>>>>Puljujarvi. Kadri>RNH. Marleau>Lucic

The Oilers have three bona fide top 6 forwards. The Leafs have a full complement plus they have enough wingers that they can actually utilize their centre depth without forcing a C onto the wing.

 

[Little Fury]

thanks MacT, but the fanbase would've hung Chiarelli if he didn't change this team
this fanbase had no patience for "don't worry, we will win!...eventually"
easy to look back now in hindsight but fans were fed up of bottom 3 finishes

Hanged. He's not a picture.

Pedantry aside, who cares what the fans think?

huh? the Leafs had Kadri, Bozak, JVR, and Reilly...thats good core from the 2013 team had made the playoffs and a good core to "rebuild" with
they hardly started with less

Goes to show how much you overvalue a playoff appearance. The core Chia had when he arrived was much better than what Shanahan had to work with when he decided to tear things down.

 

[CupofOil]

You forget that they had to first clear the deck in order to rebuild. That meant dumping big contracts like Kessel, Phaneuf, Clarkson and Bolland. Oh and they completely nuked the coaching and front office staffs (while somehow, someway, MacT and Bob Green still have jobs that don't involve selling burgers.)

Players they added outside of the draft: Andersen, Zaistev, Hainsey, Kapanen, Hyman, Marleau, Tavares. So two of their top 6 D, their starting goalie and a god chunk of their forwards. I'm probably missing some players here as well.

Finally, as an Oilers fan I don't think you can hand wave away good drafting.



Yes. Just as an example: Nylander>>>>>>>>>Puljujarvi. Kadri>RNH. Marleau>Lucic

The Oilers have three bona fide top 6 forwards. The Leafs have a full complement plus they have enough wingers that they can actually utilize their centre depth without forcing a C onto the wing.

Was Nylander>>>>>Puljujarvi 2 seasons ago? This is where development comes into play and Toronto has been much better at it. RNH is perfectly capable of being as good as Kadri, Kadri didn't start thriving until Babcock showed up.
This goes back to my point about the big difference between the teams, one is a better coached team.

I just take issue with those saying that these apparent geniuses in Toronto built a far more talented team. Put Puljujarvi in Babcock's system and I bet you that he's a good deal better right now. The Leafs are getting more out of their skill than the Oilers are, it's not like the Oilers are lacking raw talent up front.

In any event, not trying to defend Chia here as he's made his fair share of mistakes to state the obvious but it's not like Leafs management made all these shrewd moves to shape some cup contender.

The bottom line is that the Oilers need to draft and develop, that's how you build great teams. The onus is on the players currently here and the coaches to get the most out of their ability, the cavalry isn't coming from outside.

 

[Little Fury]

Was Nylander>>>>>Puljujarvi 2 seasons ago?

Yes? He crushed the A as a 19 year old.

This is where development comes into play and Toronto has been much better at it. RNH is perfectly capable of being as good as Kadri, Kadri didn't start thriving until Babcock showed up.
This goes back to my point about the big difference between the teams, one is a better coached team.

Or, you know, they're just better players. For example, no coach is going to make RNH not be 120 pounds and injury-prone.

I just take issue with those saying that these apparent geniuses in Toronto built a far more talented team. Put Puljujarvi in Babcock's system and I bet you that he's a good deal better right now. The Leafs are getting more out of their skill than the Oilers are, it's not like the Oilers are lacking raw talent up front.

No way to prove this. I personally don't think there's a huge gap between the best coaches and the worst (T Mac probably falls somewhere in the middle) and that talent is the biggest factor in determining success.

In any event, not trying to defend Chia here as he's made his fair share of mistakes to state the obvious but it's not like Leafs management made all these shrewd moves to shape some cup contender.

Sometimes it's the moves you don't make that matter most.

The bottom line is that the Oilers need to draft and develop, that's how you build great teams. The onus is on the players currently here and the coaches to get the most out of their ability, the cavalry isn't coming from outside.

Well, obviously, but the debate is that we didn't need to be in a position where we're waiting on a bunch of teenagers to show up and save the day.

 

[Drivesaitl]

.... is when you think you're better than the professionals

In a world where Trump is president this is a mind numbing opinion.

In 50yrs of following hockey its come to my immediate attention that a large proportion of hockey managers/coaches have been, for lack of better words, idiots.

I leave you with one thing. The majority of established NHL coaches and managers felt that Wayne Gretzky wouldn't even survive the NHL game. They felt he would be ineffective and run through the boards and that his career wouldn't last. There were comments that he should stay away if he knew whats good for him. This was NHL professionals being "better"...

But seriously I don't know how one looks at the world without realizing that occasionally people in control are not all that good at what they are doing.

 

[CupofOil]

Yes? He crushed the A as a 19 year old.

Puljujarvi was an elite prospect, most had him higher rated than Nylander. Maybe Nylander is just, quite simply, a better player but he's certainly been coached up a lot better than Pulju has. These young players need the proper guidance to get their career jumpstarted and I don't think Pulju has had that.
Same goes for RNH. I bet that he would be a better player than he is now if he was anywhere but in Edmonton.

No way to prove this. I personally don't think there's a huge gap between the best coaches and the worst (T Mac probably falls somewhere in the middle) and that talent is the biggest factor in determining success.

Of course there's no way to prove this but I don't see the Leafs roster as so much more talented overall (as you can see by the player vs. player listings) that they should be THIS much better than the Oilers last season so yes, I do think coaching plays a significant factor.

Sometimes it's the moves you don't make that matter most.
Well, obviously, but the debate is that we didn't need to be in a position where we're waiting on a bunch of teenagers to show up and save the day.

Fair point about less being more sometimes. I still say that the most critical error Chia made (outside of the Lucic and Russell NMC's, the Sekera one I understand) is pissing away the 2015 draft on Reinhart. If they had merely just kept those picks and made the right picks (even Erikkson Ek at worst and Carlo), they would be a lot better off now even with the Hall and Eberle trades.

Also, waiting on a bunch of teenagers to save the day is what the previous regime did. Chia is the exact opposite of that (or at least was his first 2 offseasons), he brought in a bunch of older players and a different mix. Now it looks like he's depending on youth because the veterans are playing awful or injured and because his hands are tied due to his own mistakes.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Hanged. He's not a picture.

Pedantry aside, who cares what the fans think?

they pay the money to go to the games
in any case, easy to say now looking back in hindsight would they should or shouldn't have done...the fact of the matter is the organization wanted change and were fed up
all you have to is read threads on this site in 2016 to see how much the fans wanted to "stay the course"

Goes to show how much you overvalue a playoff appearance. The core Chia had when he arrived was much better than what Shanahan had to work with when he decided to tear things down.

disagree
Shanny came to a team that finished 38-36-8 in 2013-14 and one year removed from the playoffs
Chia came to a team that was 24-44-14 and drafting top three in 5 of 6 drafts including four #1 overalls

 

[Little Fury]

they pay the money to go to the games
in any case, easy to say now looking back in hindsight would they should or shouldn't have done...the fact of the matter is the organization wanted change and were fed up
all you have to is read threads on this site in 2016 to see how much the fans wanted to "stay the course"

Making decisions based on emotion or because of the need to be seen as proactive seldom ends well. And it's not like there weren't plenty of people who were against the Reinhart trade or the Hall trade from day one, so the hindsight argument doesn't fly.

disagree
Shanny came to a team that finished 38-36-8 in 2013-14 and one year removed from the playoffs
Chia came to a team that was 24-44-14 and drafting top three in 5 of 6 drafts including four #1 overalls

I bet you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would rather start a team with Kadri, Bozak, JVR, and Reilly over Hall, Draisaitl, RNH, Klefbom, Nurse and Connor frigging McDavid.

Christ, why do you think the leafs tore it all down to begin with?

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I think the biggest issue so far was the Reinhart trade. The Hall trade we paid a hefty price but got a needed player type from it. The Eberle trade didn't cripple us and improved our center depth and cap situation. The Reinhart trade was terrible and the fact that Bob Green still has a job after it is puzzling. We could not trade the McDavid pick for obvious reasons. The Pulju pick was another pick that we shouldn't have moved so really outside of the guys that we already traded that 1st and 2nd rounder should've returned a quality piece yet we got jack **** for it. The problem that Chia inherited was an organizational lack of depth at key positions like defense and even at forward and goal. I'd also like t see this team under a new coaching staff or at least head coach if we have a rough start. The more I see of McLellan, the less impressed with him I am.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Making decisions based on emotion or because of the need to be seen as proactive seldom ends well. And it's not like there weren't plenty of people who were against the Reinhart trade or the Hall trade from day one, so the hindsight argument doesn't fly.

people were against certain trades in isolation
the fanbase, media and organization were in favour of a change cause the core they had simply wasn't winning hockey games

the "stay the course" mantra wasn't fooling anyone anymore

I bet you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would rather start a team with Kadri, Bozak, JVR, and Reilly over Hall, Draisaitl, RNH, Klefbom, Nurse and Connor frigging McDavid.

Christ, why do you think the leafs tore it all down to begin with?

Shanny came to a team that had won 38 games in the previous season, and team that wasn't a running joke for a decade...his situation wasn't nearly as dire as the Oilers situation

again, Chiarelli may have had more individual "talent" but that never ever once translated into wins and there's not a shred of evidence that turning the corner was even close

 

[Little Fury]

people were against certain trades in isolation
the fanbase, media and organization were in favour of a change cause the core they had simply wasn't winning hockey games

What do you mean "in isolation"? Those trades were franchise-crippling moves and folks said so at the time.

the "stay the course" mantra wasn't fooling anyone anymore

The mantra wasn't "stay the course." It was "don't do anything stupid."

They didn't listen.

Shanny came to a team that had won 38 games in the previous season, and team that wasn't a running joke for a decade...his situation wasn't nearly as dire as the Oilers situation

Not a running joke? They missed the playoffs 8 of the 9 years before Shanahan was hired!

again, Chiarelli may have had more individual "talent" but that never ever once translated into wins and there's not a shred of evidence that turning the corner was even close

Your argument here is "a team with Hall, RNH, Eberle and scrubs couldn't win, so why do you think a team with McDavid, Draisaitl, Hall, RNH, Eberle, Klefbom, Sekera and Talbot would be better?"

Pretty clear why it's a loser of an argument.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

What do you mean "in isolation"? Those trades were franchise-crippling moves and folks said so at the time.

Reinhart trade? I agree
but he also made some franchise changing moves that worked great in 2016-17

The mantra wasn't "stay the course." It was "don't do anything stupid."

They didn't listen.

I count one stupid move, the Reinhart trade, but his good moves outweigh the bad moves IMO
Tambo and MacT made stupid moves every season by signing awful UFAs and not addressing the real problems with the team

Not a running joke? They missed the playoffs 8 of the 9 years before Shanahan was hired!

they also made the playoffs once and finished above .500 six times since the Oilers last made the playoffs
care to know what the Oiler record was during that time? it not pretty
Leafs, despite being bad, were nowhere near as putrid as the Oilers from 2007-2014 thus Shannahan walked into a better situation then Chiarelli did...despite a so-called "talented" core.

Your argument here is "a team with Hall, RNH, Eberle and scrubs couldn't win, so why do you think a team with McDavid, Draisaitl, Hall, RNH, Eberle, Klefbom, Sekera and Talbot would be better?"

Pretty clear why it's a loser of an argument.

my argument is "the Oilers never won until real change came" and that's a fact...come up with any excuse in the book you want, the results are there

 

[belair]

I think the biggest issue so far was the Reinhart trade. The Hall trade we paid a hefty price but got a needed player type from it. The Eberle trade didn't cripple us and improved our center depth and cap situation. The Reinhart trade was terrible and the fact that Bob Green still has a job after it is puzzling. We could not trade the McDavid pick for obvious reasons. The Pulju pick was another pick that we shouldn't have moved so really outside of the guys that we already traded that 1st and 2nd rounder should've returned a quality piece yet we got jack **** for it. The problem that Chia inherited was an organizational lack of depth at key positions like defense and even at forward and goal. I'd also like t see this team under a new coaching staff or at least head coach if we have a rough start. The more I see of McLellan, the less impressed with him I am.

Historically yes, the Reinhart trade did hold us back in a significant manner when you assume what those pieces could've have done for the Oilers organization over the long term. Had the Oilers utilized those assets to procure a young, cost-controlled defenseman who was actually ready to assist in the short-term, we wouldn't have been plagued with the depth situation we've struggled with in previous seasons at the position. And having an ELC on the bottom pairing might've prevented the need to sign a player like Kris Russell who carries somewhat of a crippling contract.