The decision to keep the expiring contracts - is it going to backfire

[The Apologist]

I mean, think of it like this; You sub in those guys, still have Brown, Kadri, Hyman, Marner, Nylander etc. But you also have upwards of 2 1sts round picks, 2 2nds and multiple 3rds to restock the cupboard or use to get some defensive help (sorry, Gardiner needs to learn how to not pinch all the time and most of the D is gassed).

OK, lets try the opposite complete extreme of your completely extreme all goes perfect situation.
What if Kappy and Johnsson arent ready and get completely destroyed, look bad doing it and turn out to be terrible NHLers. The team completely falls apart and a hot Panthers team catches them. And we only got a 2nd for Bozak, and one first for JVR, and maybe a 4th for Koma.
Then we trade that first and second for Tanev, who turns out to be the second coming of Komisarek.
We then destroyed a 100pt top ten team for the sake of Mike Komisarek while completely destroying two young up and coming talents by playing them well above their heads for what?

Arent hypothetical situations fun?

 

[Apotheosis]

JVR and Bozak have done more to 'help us' this off season than our star young guns. Not sure how another Freddy Gauthier, Justin Pogge, or Greg McKegg would have helped any more.

I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion, but okay. The huge difference between our vets and Boston's is so clear. Our vets NEED to be sheltered. Their vets are on their top pairing/top line.

 

[Faltorvo]

What part of your opinion looks good? The make believe draft picks the Leafs may or may not have gotten for JVR and Bozak?

Guess LA should have traded Doughty as well. That would have made sense.

Don't know why you are sitting on here, dust off that resume and get to GM'ing.

Why is Doughty a unsigned pending UFA??????

 

[GoonieFace]

You know what I always find funny about this argument which is simply appeal to authority. Just because they work in the business does not actually mean they are smarter than ALL fans. Have you ever considered that some of the fans here have superior IQ's and skill-sets who decided to utilize their talents in different fields?

When you default to AUTHORITY IS GENIUS, Common people are STUPID. You prove that you don't know what you are talking for all.

Whats funny is you actually think you know what you are talking about. Lets just thrown a whole roster full of rookies on the ice, no need to have JVR and Bozak around. Sure they are good players and will score 50 goals or so, but who needs that. That's what Edmonton tried to do..hows that working out for them?

You literally are clueless.

 

[MattySnipes]

You know what I always find funny about this argument which is simply appeal to authority. Just because they work in the business does not actually mean they are smarter than ALL fans. Have you ever considered that some of the fans here have superior IQ's and skill-sets who decided to utilize their talents in different fields?

When you default to AUTHORITY IS GENIUS, Common people are STUPID. You prove that you don't know what you are talking for all.

Yeah, the whole appeal to authority is getting tired. Just because they are in those positions doesn't mean every move they make or don't make is perfect. They are right to be criticised especially when you see how those three have played in the playoffs.

 

[Apotheosis]

OK, lets try the opposite complete extreme of your completely extreme all goes perfect situation.
What if Kappy and Johnsson arent ready and get completely destroyed, look bad doing it and turn out to be terrible NHLers. The team completely falls apart and a hot Panthers team catches them. And we only got a 2nd for Bozak, and one first for JVR, and maybe a 4th for Koma.
Then we trade that first and second for Tanev, who turns out to be the second coming of Komisarek.
We then destroyed a 100pt top ten team for the sake of Mike Komisarek while completely destroying two young up and coming talents by playing them well above their heads for what?

Arent hypothetical situations fun?

You displayed a hypothetical with no basis in reality. We have known AJ and Kapanen were ready based on their AHL domination. You're just changing the narrative for a hypothetical situation. And the picks change nothing but help us for the future, and we then don't have to shelter our "Vets".

 

[The Apologist]

Yeah, the whole appeal to authority is getting tired. Just because they are in those positions doesn't mean every move they make or don't make is perfect. They are right to be criticised especially when you see how those three have played in the playoffs.

Youre right, they make mistakes. You know who else can be wrong? People on these boards
As for Bozak and JVR, both have looked just fine in these playoffs and Koma is injured. What more did you expect from them?

 

[ACC1224]

Just curios, how is the 30g season from JVR going to help us going forward? Or are you just saying that is was such a joy to watch that it was worth foregoing future assets for for that reason alone?

I don't agree with your stance on this but kudos for staying reasonable.
Some of the other opinions presented here are pretty asinine.
I'd quote them but they don't deserve the attention.
It is funny to see them being boasted about though.

 

[thewave]

Whats funny is you actually think you know what you are talking about. Lets just thrown a whole roster full of rookies on the ice, no need to have JVR and Bozak around. Sure they are good players and will score 50 goals or so, but who needs that. That's what Edmonton tried to do..hows that working out for them?

You literally are clueless.

Yes, let's ignore the part where I said trade and use proceeds to upgrade areas like D which we obviously needed an upgrade on.

 

[MattySnipes]

Youre right, they make mistakes. You know who else can be wrong? People on these boards
As for Bozak and JVR, both have looked just fine in these playoffs and Koma is injured. What more did you expect from them?

they have looked "just fine" but that's not good enough. Not when they're in the position they're in. They should be our best players. They are our vets. JvR has done nothing except for that one little hit he laid on Chara. Komarov should never have even been in the lineup for playoffs. AJ has been just terrific and shows once again that Babcock must adapt his ways of thinking. This whole tie goes to the vet nonsense is comical.

Anyway, hope they aren't back next year but i'm not holding my breath.

 

[The Apologist]

You displayed a hypothetical with no basis in reality. We have known AJ and Kapanen were ready based on their AHL domination. You're just changing the narrative for a hypothetical situation. And the picks change nothing but help us for the future, and we then don't have to shelter our "Vets".

AHL domination does not equal anything in the NHL my friend. But youre right, Kappy and Johnsson look dominant so far. Completely tearing it up.
And the picks change plenty, the picks do not play the minutes our vets (not sure why you have this in quotations) play. They do not score the goals our vets score. They do not make the hits, take the faceoffs, make the takeaways, passes, etc these guys play.

This is beyond silly.

 

[thewave]

Part of what these idiots won't touch with a ten foot pole is that

Kappy,Johnsson,Aalt would have filled the roles of

Koma,Boz,Jvr

is thaT so bad???? well kids better get used to it, because that is who will being doing it next season.

Exactly. Carrick was a lot better than Polak as well but, not to Babcock. I would even take Leivo over Komarov for what he put on the table this year. It's crazy and idiots is not going too far for this discussion.

 

[ShaneFalco]

AHL domination does not equal anything in the NHL my friend. But youre right, Kappy and Johnsson look dominant so far. Completely tearing it up.
And the picks change plenty, the picks do not play the minutes our vets (not sure why you have this in quotations) play. They do not score the goals our vets score. They do not make the hits, take the faceoffs, make the takeaways, passes, etc these guys play.

This is beyond silly.

So who will do all that next year if all these guys walk?
And to be clear I'm not talking about moving anyone at the TDL
And I see holding onto to Bozak as they really lack C depth
But JVR should have been moved. And if Gardiner isn't moved in the summer are you ok with him walking too?
Ok with trading another 2nd for a 4th line C? Just picks?

 

[ShaneFalco]

Exactly. Carrick was a lot better than Polak as well but, not to Babcock. I would even take Leivo over Komarov for what he put on the table this year. It's crazy and idiots is not going too far for this discussion.

One of the reasons I could never understand why babcock didn't give leivo a legit chance. Why not see what you have instead of waiting until guys walk and be forced to find out for better or worse?

 

[Apotheosis]

AHL domination does not equal anything in the NHL my friend. But youre right, Kappy and Johnsson look dominant so far. Completely tearing it up.
And the picks change plenty, the picks do not play the minutes our vets (not sure why you have this in quotations) play. They do not score the goals our vets score. They do not make the hits, take the faceoffs, make the takeaways, passes, etc these guys play.

This is beyond silly.

AHL domination is the closest metric we have of transferable success to the NHL. I put vets in quotations as a snarky remark because it's absolutely hilarious that our vets are the ones being sheltered, whereas our kids are the ones playing the toughest minutes.

 

[Faltorvo]

Well, i still stand by my point that i posted in the Summer, sign them or trade them, don't bleed those assets.

Hubris got the best of this management group.

8 sophomores and 3 rookies and this was supposed to go deep in the POs? Guess not

 

[thewave]

One of the reasons I could never understand why babcock didn't give leivo a legit chance. Why not see what you have instead of waiting until guys walk and be forced to find out for better or worse?

Sam for whatever the reason behind the scenes, it appears an error in judgement was made and next year is going to be quite interesting. Do we get more Polak and Moore type contracts? Are kids still going to be considered a last resort? Perhaps we will target a high price UFA but does that mean we trade 1 of the 3? Many of these issues could have been avoided by just moving on from the old players and live fire testing the kids (Johnsson Leivo Kapanen) from the start.

It seems to me that this season will force Babcock to evaluate his ideology as much as his roster. Depending how things went behind the scenes maybe how much input Babs has on Roster may even change but that's just speculation.

 

[thewave]

Well, i still stand my point that i posted in the Summer, sign them or trade them, don't bleed those assets.

Hubris got the best of this management group.

8 sophomores and 3 rookies and this was supposed to go deep in the POs? Guess not

The price was steep. JVR Bozak (Top 6 players) Komarov (3rd liner under normal circumstances) Polak (Cost Carrick or Holl etc development time) Martin (Took a spot from Leivo or Johnsson and never played more than 6mins). Moore you can forgive understanding you don't want all rookies.

Hyman Matthews Kapanen
Marleau Kadri Marner
Johnsson Nylander Brown
Leivo (Moore/Goat/Fehr) Martin (Other)

Ri Ha
Ja Z
D Car
Holl
Is it ideal? Probably not but I can't imagine it missing the PO this year either.

 

[The Apologist]

Just curios, how is the 30g season from JVR going to help us going forward? Or are you just saying that is was such a joy to watch that it was worth foregoing future assets for for that reason alone?

It doesnt have to help us in the future, sometimes it can be about the present too. We do still have to play the games this season. It's all about balance.
The Leafs had one of the more balanced offenses in the entire league this season and our veterans are a large part of that. Having that balance allows our younger players to have more freedom, forcing teams to split up their defensive assignments.
I know some believe that Johnsson and Kappy are capable of replacing that offence, which is fine, but is by no means guaranteed.
There is also no guarantee that anything returned from any trade involving these vets ever becomes something meaningful either. Again, its all about balance right?

 

[Joey Hoser]

Good question.

Now to continue this thought exercise, what if the chances of losing in the 1st round were 98%, what then? Probably still trade right? At some point though, the answer becomes nah, no trade I'd rather keep them. But at what point does this happen?

My point it (and your answer supports this) is that to trade pending UFA's or not to trade is like most decisions, a risk vs reward scenario. You consider the pros and cons and make a decision. What you do NOT do, is decide to not do any analysis at all and NOT trade pending UFA's because that kind of thing is just not done.

I think our management group decided to keep these guys because they thought the reward was worth the risk. I really hope so anyway. I can live with them making what was IMO a bad decision. What I can't accept is if they're not capable of thinking outside a very small box (and I don't believe that's true).

What makes you think I didn't weigh the risk and reward of keeping them? Of course I did.

 

[Stephen]

The downside of getting good fast is now they cannot get good slower.?

No the downside is you don’t get more lottery picks.

 

[StreetHawk]

Probably getting futures for those guys. Not players who ar going to step in during this season.

So, do they not try to win a round this season? Take the next step?

Or do they say, let’s move these guys and flip the picks we get from them to other teams to fill in our primary needs in the summer?

Like get. 1st for Jvr and trade that to get D help like Tanev.

 

[thewave]

Probably getting futures for those guys. Not players who ar going to step in during this season.

So, do they not try to win a round this season? Take the next step?

Or do they say, let’s move these guys and flip the picks we get from them to other teams to fill in our primary needs in the summer?

Like get. 1st for Jvr and trade that to get D help like Tanev.

Right, convert expiring assets into currency (picks) to be traded for assets of need.

Very simple concept. People don't seem to grasp it.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think the Leafs are doing fine in the future assets category. Its mind boggling that people are actually upset about this. The Leafs are a legit team that had a legit shot at making noise in the playoffs, those types of teams don't sell off 50 goals at the Trade Deadline for futures.

What makes you think I didn't weigh the risk and reward of keeping them? Of course I did.

I wasn't referring to you, it was a general comment. See the post above yours? I've seen at least a hundred of such posts over the last few months that state it like it's an absolute - "this sort of thing just isn't done", and so on. Of course one team did it just last season which makes these comments particularly ignorant but even if that hadn't been the case, I've never been a fan of the sheep mentality. Some people have given their reasons and that's fine, discussion is always welcome. But when people give no reasons of their own, appeal to authority and then proceed to mock and insult people who have a differing view, that's just disrespectful and a waste of time.

 

[New User Name]

If you believe your team has a legitimate chance to go far into the playoffs, you keep any players on expiring contracts. I don't believe the Leafs had any intention to sign JVR or Bozak starting in the summer of 2017 after their contracts expire.

It's obvious Leafs management thought we could go far after trading a 2nd for Boyle last year and this year trading for Plekanec.

I don't know any Leafs fans off this board that considered the Leafs to be serious contenders last year or this year.

I believe we could have got, at least, a 1st for JVR and at worst a 2nd for Bozak.

Therefore Leafs management in their curious way of building a contending team in the future have thrown away at a minimum three 2nd's and a 1st.