The DeBoer Debacle Part 4

[devilsblood]

3 UFAs: swapping Broduer, Jagr and Zidlicky out for call-up replacements drops that instantly down almost 2 years and right into the midpoint of the league average of 27.

Elias and Salvador not far off either which would drop it almost another full year and make the Devils one of the youngest teams.

Those are 3 of our best players. Top 2 in points. Leading goal scoring D-man.

 

[The Devil In I]

Anyone have a link to that summary of Deboer given to us by Panthers fans when he was first hired?

In an argument with some fool that thinks Deboer is a fantastic coach.

 

[Richer's Ghost]

And then I can drop off the 5 oldest guys from every other team in the league and we're almost back at square one...

Every other team doesn't have 2 40+ year old players coming off contracts this year is the point. Zidlicky is 38 and also a UFA with plenty of depth behind him and not a must to re-sign.

We are going to be right in line with the league avg. real quick without taking even trying.

Those are 3 of our best players. Top 2 in points. Leading goal scoring D-man.

So take your pick - you want to get younger or not?

 

[VaxjoDevil]

Do good teams not get contributions from young players?

Have we not seen the Devils get major contributions from young players during their stanley cup years?

You think our "Stanley Cup years" was because of prospects doing well or having established players like Niedermayer, Daneyko, Stevens, Brodeur etc.?

Somehow here everything is about young players when the team fails. I don't understand it. We have Gelinas coming in and adding offense (before he somehow lost his footing and just started playing badly) in a way none of out veterans did. I still don't see him as a failure. DeBoer was very patient with him and kept him playing at all costs recently.

We lost Parise and didn't replace him with anything. It's really that simple. To think that "scoring by committee" was a plan for this group was a mistake. Brunner and Ryder were players that were total misfits to DeBoer's style of play. Clowe was a better fit, except that he was injury prone by now and well looksie what happened.

Nothing of this can be blamed on DeBoer really.

 

[R8Devs]

Parise has a 69 point pace this year playing with the Wild. If he was still here we most likely would not have gotten Cory, and I doubt Lou would have went after Jagr either.

Jagr has replaced Parise's production pretty well, Elias is still Elias, no one replaced Kovy's production but our defenseman have much more points nowadays.

So yeah we haven't replaced Zach but if he was still here I doubt the results would be much different, because we might not have gotten Jagr or Cory if he was still here.

 

[schoenfeld]

boy it's almost like none of you have seen what a real losing hockey franchise looks like ahaahhwait

 

[NJDevs26]

You think our "Stanley Cup years" was because of prospects doing well or having established players like Niedermayer, Daneyko, Stevens, Brodeur etc.?

2000 was certainly helped by having Gomez, Rafalski, Madden and White all come in and play key roles. In many ways the 2000-04 teams were set up by them and the emergence of Elias-Sykora just before that. That team needed a transition when the vet-laden club of '95 got old.

 

[Devilsfan992]

2000 was certainly helped by having Gomez, Rafalski, Madden and White all come in and play key roles. In many ways the 2000-04 teams were set up by them and the emergence of Elias-Sykora just before that. That team needed a transition when the vet-laden club of '95 got old.

And in 1995, Brodeur was 22 and Neidermeyer was 21. We also had role players like Holik, Rolston, and Brylin who were 24 or younger.

 

[MadDevil]

Do good teams not get contributions from young players?

Have we not seen the Devils get major contributions from young players during their stanley cup years?

There's a difference between getting contributions from young players and the "we're going to lose, we might as well lose with kids" attitude that some people seem to have around here. Gelinas has played 60 games this year, and is getting a little under 17 minutes a night. I would say that's being given plenty of opportunity, especially given his weaknesses defensively. Merrill is playing 19 minutes a night as a rookie. Henrique has played a ton as a young player. Larsson has played 125 games in the NHL as a defenseman, and he's 21. Kids have been given plenty of opportunities under this coach who doesn't know how to coach kids. Some have grabbed the opportunity and run with it. Others haven't.

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

There's a difference between getting contributions from young players and the "we're going to lose, we might as well lose with kids" attitude that some people seem to have around here. Gelinas has played 60 games this year, and is getting a little under 17 minutes a night. I would say that's being given plenty of opportunity, especially given his weaknesses defensively. Merrill is playing 19 minutes a night as a rookie. Henrique has played a ton as a young player. Larsson has played 125 games in the NHL as a defenseman, and he's 21. Kids have been given plenty of opportunities under this coach who doesn't know how to coach kids. Some have grabbed the opportunity and run with it. Others haven't.

Quality of opportunity is key. I think if I delved into that we'd find that the kids (obviously not Merrill) we are most concerned about were given far better opportunities before Debo got here.

 

[hidek91]

Why Pete doesn't play youngsters (and why not on the first line)? It looks like an old story in this part of town so let's break it down. Of course we assume that goal of DeBoer is producing results, not developing prospects who may make impact 5 years after he's fired.

Josefson's production in his NHL career is 25 points in 118 games. He has scored total of 7 goals in those games. Tell me - what could this guy bring to top-six? The answer is nothing. You could use him in bottom-six but once again - you've got much better players on 3rd line and 4th line is shutdown line, Stephen Gionta works much better there. You may not like Gionta but if you try to watch games with open mind, you would notice that Gionta is useful at 4th line.

I think that those who still consider Josefson good player will get their reality check when he's waived and noone takes him as it happened with Tedenby. Tedenby was worse case but it's similiar - not enough grit to play on checking lines, not enough skill to play on scoring lines.

All in all, Josefson didn't deserve to be NHL regular this season and even if he did, his presence wouldn't change anything.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

not one person has said Josefson needs to play in the top 6.

if you think taht Stephen Gionta is better on a "shutdown" line than Josefson would be, then we really have nothing else left to talk about.

Josefson literally does everything better than Gionta does aside from hitting.

 

[hidek91]

not one person has said Josefson needs to play in the top 6.

if you think taht Stephen Gionta is better on a "shutdown" line than Josefson would be, then we really have nothing else left to talk about.

Josefson literally does everything better than Gionta does aside from hitting.

Aside from playing hockey, I think.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Josefson is:

a better passer
better at faceoffs
better defensively

than Stephen Gionta.

 

[devilsblood]

You think our "Stanley Cup years" was because of prospects doing well or having established players like Niedermayer, Daneyko, Stevens, Brodeur etc.?

Somehow here everything is about young players when the team fails. I don't understand it. We have Gelinas coming in and adding offense (before he somehow lost his footing and just started playing badly) in a way none of out veterans did. I still don't see him as a failure. DeBoer was very patient with him and kept him playing at all costs recently.

We lost Parise and didn't replace him with anything. It's really that simple. To think that "scoring by committee" was a plan for this group was a mistake. Brunner and Ryder were players that were total misfits to DeBoer's style of play. Clowe was a better fit, except that he was injury prone by now and well looksie what happened.

Nothing of this can be blamed on DeBoer really.

Were nied's and Marty ever young players on cup teams? Was Elias ever a young player on a cup team? Gomez?

 

[MountainGoat]

I think Pete did a good job and we would be in the playoffs if he had more to work with. Lou needs to re-sign Jagr and add better shooters with speed to our top 6 and then we'll be in the playoffs

 

[devilsblood]

Why Pete doesn't play youngsters (and why not on the first line)? It looks like an old story in this part of town so let's break it down. Of course we assume that goal of DeBoer is producing results, not developing prospects who may make impact 5 years after he's fired.

Josefson's production in his NHL career is 25 points in 118 games. He has scored total of 7 goals in those games. Tell me - what could this guy bring to top-six? The answer is nothing. You could use him in bottom-six but once again - you've got much better players on 3rd line and 4th line is shutdown line, Stephen Gionta works much better there. You may not like Gionta but if you try to watch games with open mind, you would notice that Gionta is useful at 4th line.

I think that those who still consider Josefson good player will get their reality check when he's waived and noone takes him as it happened with Tedenby. Tedenby was worse case but it's similiar - not enough grit to play on checking lines, not enough skill to play on scoring lines.

All in all, Josefson didn't deserve to be NHL regular this season and even if he did, his presence wouldn't change anything.

Actually I think the opposite. Devils would have loved to send JJ down to Albany just to get him on the ice. But they knew that if he were to be exposed to waivers someone would have grabbed him quick. They were willing to risk it with Ted's but not with JJ.

 

[devilsblood]

I think Pete did a good job and we would be in the playoffs if he had more to work with. Lou needs to re-sign Jagr and add better shooters with speed to our top 6 and then we'll be in the playoffs

In what way?

 

[BahlDeep]

Pete is a good coach.

 

[StvBroDan]

Pete is a good coach.

Keep telling yourself that.

 

[devilsblood]

Every other team doesn't have 2 40+ year old players coming off contracts this year is the point. Zidlicky is 38 and also a UFA with plenty of depth behind him and not a must to re-sign.

We are going to be right in line with the league avg. real quick without taking even trying.



So take your pick - you want to get younger or not?

Unfortunately we need the old guys to continue to bridge the gap. Granted we were not very good this year, but unless we want to be totally horrendous and go after McDavid(but again there conflicts with trying to keep Cory) then we need to sign those guys(and I would have traded Zid's).

I don't know your underlying point, but if you're trying to say we are not that old a team, I think the facts clearly say otherwise.

 

[MadDevil]

Quality of opportunity is key. I think if I delved into that we'd find that the kids (obviously not Merrill) we are most concerned about were given far better opportunities before Debo got here.

So, Tedenby and Josefson? A bust and a dime-a-dozen bottom six forward?

 

[devilsblood]

Pete is a good coach.

based on what?

 

[Oneiro]

When a team can't sustain scoring the entire year, okay that's one thing.

When a team scores and can't hold onto the lead, okay that's one thing.

When a team does both things - it is on the coach.

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

So, Tedenby and Josefson? A bust and a dime-a-dozen bottom six forward?

Bernier is a bust and Gionta is a dime a dozen AHL player.

Yet one is on the PP and the other is on the PK.