Post-Game Talk: The Deadline is over (cont'd)

[penguins2946*]

Despres doesn't have the upside to be the center piece in a Kesler deal. I see him becoming a good middle pair D, which isn't bad in any way. However, even if he reaches that ceiling, I don't see the Canucks moving Kesler for him. Trading Kesler for a D who's best case situation probably isn't a top pair D would be a gigantic blunder for the Canucks. Also, Despres is redundant in Vancouver, and would require a roster spot next year, so it's understandable if they wouldn't have wanted him. Pouliot has elite potential, which is why the Canucks and their fans were pushing for him. Despres just doesn't have that ceiling. I don't see what separates him from Dumoulin in terms of potential.

 

[IcedCapp]

How do you define "undervalue" when it comes to Despres? I ask because one distinction I think is sorely missed around here is that there's a big difference between the potential to be a good solid player and being attractive enough to be a big piece of a trade. Do I think Despres is probably going to be a nice Dman? Yeah I think he probably will be. The main piece in a deal for an established player who would make an impact on a Cup team? No, I'm heavily leaning towards him not having that upside. Am I undervaluing him?

As you allude to, it's two separate issues.

I think the Penguins' management of Despres has created a situation where his value to the Penguins is likely much higher than his value league wide.

From the outside looking in, he's a 22-year old 1st round pick who isn't good or consistent enough to play regular minutes in the NHL. While scouts can look at him and give a better estimation of his skill than a box score or his playing time can, the fact that he doesn't play NHL regular minutes, has burned through his ELC, and is about to turn 23, is enough of an argument for a team to say, "I'm not giving you anything of value for him."

On these boards, that's not what opposing fans say when Despres' name is brought up as a trade piece. They say, "Despres isn't any good, if he was good, he wouldn't be in the AHL."

I agree with YOUR take on things. I think Despres is a good player now and has the ability to be great. I do not think Despres or the Penguins have done anything, to this point, to cultivate a value that matches that "evaluation."

This is why I was so adamant against trading him, because you're basically selling low on someone who, in my mind, is at worst a good 2nd-pairing guy.

 

[Michael8771*]

Despres doesn't have the upside to be the center piece in a Kesler deal. I see him becoming a good middle pair D, which isn't bad in any way. However, even if he reaches that ceiling, I don't see the Canucks moving Kesler for him. Trading Kesler for a D who's best case situation probably isn't a top pair D would be a gigantic blunder for the Canucks. Also, Despres is redundant in Vancouver, and would require a roster spot next year, so it's understandable if they wouldn't have wanted him. Pouliot has elite potential, which is why the Canucks and their fans were pushing for him. Despres just doesn't have that ceiling. I don't see what separates him from Dumoulin in terms of potential.

Despres regarding development is far in front of Dumoulin. Despres does take risks ala Letang, but his game is much more crisp and I have a lot more trust in him to show poise when being confronted in the defensive zone then that curtain jerker Dumoulin.

 

[penguins2946*]

Despres regarding development is far in front of Dumoulin. Despres does take risks ala Letang, but his game is much more crisp and I have a lot more trust in him to show poise when being confronted in the defensive zone then that curtain jerker Dumoulin.

He was also drafted a year before Dumoulin. Why do some scouts have Dumoulin over Despres in their rankings if that "curtain jerker" Dumoulin is nothing to Despres?

 

[djt153]

what is a curtain jerker?

 

[Michael8771*]

He was also drafted a year before Dumoulin. Why do some scouts have Dumoulin over Despres in their rankings if that "curtain jerker" Dumoulin is nothing to Despres?

Why did some scouts think Kirk Muller was better than Mario Lemieux in 1984?

what is a curtain jerker?

Think Craig Adams.

 

[penguins2946*]

Why did some scouts think Kirk Muller was better than Mario Lemieux in 1984?

Think Craig Adams.

I'm pretty sure no scouts thought that. Not even the crappy ones. The only time that Dumoulin and Despres were ranked together was in 2012, where Pronman had Dumoulin 2nd (http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/puck/article.php?articleid=1379). Other than that, I don't see any other places where they're both included.

 

[Michael8771*]

I'm pretty sure no scouts thought that. Not even the crappy ones.

Oh there were, not many but there were a few. And beyond that there were scouts that felt Jordan Staal was better than Toews OR Kessel, Daigle was better than Pronger, Lawton better than Yzerman or Lafontaine, Morrow better than Saad and on and on.

 

[penguins2946*]

Oh there were, not many but there were a few. And beyond that there were scouts that felt Jordan Staal was better than Toews OR Kessel, Daigle was better than Pronger, Lawton better than Yzerman or Lafontaine, Morrow better than Saad and on and on.

That does nothing to prove that Despres is a better prospect that Dumoulin. Saying that scouts are wrong sometimes doesn't prove a thing. I don't even think that Dumoulin is a better prospect, but I don't see anything that makes me believe that Despres is much above him.

 

[MrBurghundy]

That does nothing to prove that Despres is a better prospect that Dumoulin. Saying that scouts are wrong sometimes doesn't prove a thing. I don't even think that Dumoulin is a better prospect, but I don't see anything that makes me believe that Despres is much above him.

And what are you basing this on? Are you watching Dumoulin in the AHL? Because if we are basing this opinion off of NHL performance to date, Despres is ahead of him a lot.

 

[Michael8771*]

That does nothing to prove that Despres is a better prospect that Dumoulin. Saying that scouts are wrong sometimes doesn't prove a thing. I don't even think that Dumoulin is a better prospect, but I don't see anything that makes me believe that Despres is much above him.

Dumoulin was given more PP time than Despres (at least in the games I saw as of a couple weeks ago and before he got injured) yet his numbers pale in comparison. He also was very erratic defensively and tenative with the puck far more often than Despres. I'd put Samuelson ahead of Dumoulin at this point himself. Far more steady defensively. We'll see how it plays out but I doubt Dumoulin will be anything more than a bottom pairing guy here (at best) who occasionally shows some flashes of brilliance.

 

[penguins2946*]

And what are you basing this on? Are you watching Dumoulin in the AHL? Because if we are basing this opinion off of NHL performance to date, Despres is ahead of him a lot.

I've seen both Dumoulin and Despres a lot in the AHL this year. Neither have been particurally impressive there. Despres's NHL performance is better because he has much more NHL experience and is better, but when they're both playing in the AHL, neither has an advantage over the other. Despres should be playing better in the AHL because he's, you know, better, but he really hasn't been.

 

[MrBurghundy]

I've seen both Dumoulin and Despres a lot in the AHL this year. Neither have been particurally impressive there. Despres's NHL performance is better because he has much more NHL experience and is better, but when they're both playing in the AHL, neither has an advantage over the other. Despres should be playing better in the AHL because he's, you know, better, but he really hasn't been.

There are tons of players who play better in the NHL instead of the AHL. That's why when people say some player needs to dominate in the AHL first I just roll my eyes.

 

[Michael8771*]

I've seen both Dumoulin and Despres a lot in the AHL this year. Neither have been particurally impressive there. Despres's NHL performance is better because he has much more NHL experience and is better, but when they're both playing in the AHL, neither has an advantage over the other. Despres should be playing better in the AHL because he's, you know, better, but he really hasn't been.

I disagree with your assessment, in what I saw I was far more impressed and comfortable with Despres. I think Despres is less challenged in the ''A'' than Dumoulin. Despres does get complacent, I'll give you that but regarding talent and vision and such, he lays over Dumoulin considerably.

 

[MrBurghundy]

I disagree with your assessment, in what I saw I was far more impressed and comfortable with Despres. I think Despres is less challenged in the ''A'' than Dumoulin. Despres does get complacent, I'll give you that but regarding talent and vision and such, he lays over Dumoulin considerably.

Agreed.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

I've seen both Dumoulin and Despres a lot in the AHL this year. Neither have been particurally impressive there. Despres's NHL performance is better because he has much more NHL experience and is better, but when they're both playing in the AHL, neither has an advantage over the other. Despres should be playing better in the AHL because he's, you know, better, but he really hasn't been.

What you are saying just doesn't add up with the games I've seen, or what anyone in WBS tied to Despres has said in the albeit few articles I've read. I've heard and seen nothing but good things about Despres, and the difference between he and Dumoulin becomes more pronounced at the NHL level.