Post-Game Talk: The Deadline is over (cont'd)

[member 51464]

Dan's style is a big part of why the players that are here want to stay here and those that aren't choose to come here. He does give too much leeway to vets, though he's certainly not alone there.



The idea that the Pens are the only team losing it when things don't go their way is bogus. Lots of teams/players have responded that way, but when Toews or Giroux does it, it's not a big deal. People act like the Red Wings' reactions to adversity is the norm, but it's not.

And I can think of a couple much more plausible reasons for the Pens losing their cool. Namely frustrating goaltending (their own) and inconsistent reffing.





There have been a lot of conflicting reports. What seals it for me is this quote straight from the horse's mouth:



http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/5698818-74/goc-center-deadline#ixzz2vENovMCs

Pouliot's a big part of our group going forward and a prospect that teams have been asking for? That sounds to me like an asset that was targeted but Shero was loathe to give up.



I question Shero decisions, I just think the overwhelming majority of his moves have been positive. For instance, I did question Pouliot over Forsberg and Grigorenko at the draft (feel free to check my post history), but decided to remain patient to see if Pouliot would emerge as the BPA.

As far as Kesler goes, it's a line in the sand because it isn't a matter of the alternative developing. Ryan Kesler IS a big, gritty, versatile, elite two-way player on a sweetheart deal who would solve Sid's RW issue for at least the next two years.

Shero prioritized Pouliot's potential over a known quantity who would have addressed many of our most glaring issues. If Pouliot goes all Maatta, he made the right decision. If Pouliot takes a few years to make a big impact (if he does at all), we've chosen to ice a lesser team for a couple seasons of Sid and Geno's prime for nothing.

Interesting take.

 

[MtlPenFan]

The idea that the Pens are the only team losing it when things don't go their way is bogus. Lots of teams/players have responded that way, but when Toews or Giroux does it, it's not a big deal. People act like the Red Wings' reactions to adversity is the norm, but it's not.

And I can think of a couple much more plausible reasons for the Pens losing their cool. Namely frustrating goaltending (their own) and inconsistent reffing.

Every team in the league has to deal with poor officiating. It's the NHL. Some teams learn to live with it, others don't.

And I think the fact that there's no adversity in the locker room ever absolutely lends itself to some of the meltdowns and lack of discipline.

When you're used to absolutely no tension, with nobody in your ear telling you what you did was wrong or selfish, no wonder Neal goes out and knees a guy in the head. No wonder Geno takes an offensive zone slash seemingly every game. Who wouldn't want to play for a coach who never holds you accountable for anything?

And when you're used to everything being all rainbows in the locker room, is it any surprise that when another team gets in your face like Philly a couple of years ago or Boston last year, that the usual suspects take a hissy fit instead of fighting through it?

 

[mpp9]

To be positive, I love that we didn't trade for any D-men. Didn't give up assets for a position we're already deep at. Gives Maatta a big role. And forces DB to play youth, especially when an injury occurs.

And I like that both guys brought in have speed. If there's one thing that we can't have enough of with DB here, it's skating ability. Wouldn't be surprised to see them both do very well. And get re-signed in the summer. Which means we gave up a few mid picks for guys who can be top 9 fits here during Sid/Geno's prime years. Stempniak as a guy who can play with Sid. And Goc as a potential replacement for Sutter.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

This isn't poised to be our year. We all understand that is why we went "all in" last year. Shero looked at that and examined his choices and decided Kesler wasn't worth Sutts, a 1st, 2nd and Pouliot.

Everyone was pissed about the Murray deal, now that Shero didn't do something like that everyone is pissed that he didn't do something like that.

Interesting, this forum is.

Don't lump me in with the majority. I wasn't pissed about the Murray deal.

And regardless of whether this was "our year", Kesler is signed for 2 more seasons. Even if some people are writing this year off, you can't write off the next two years.

Interesting take.

I didn't think there was anything remotely controversial about that.

Every team in the league has to deal with poor officiating. It's the NHL. Some teams learn to live with it, others don't.

And I think the fact that there's no adversity in the locker room ever absolutely lends itself to some of the meltdowns and lack of discipline.

When you're used to absolutely no tension, with nobody in your ear telling you what you did was wrong or selfish, no wonder Neal goes out and knees a guy in the head. No wonder Geno takes an offensive zone slash seemingly every game. Who wouldn't want to play for a coach who never holds you accountable for anything?

And when you're used to everything being all rainbows in the locker room, is it any surprise that when another team gets in your face like Philly a couple of years ago or Boston last year, that the usual suspects take a hissy fit instead of fighting through it?

When it's egregious, teams get frustrated. Game 1 in Boston was over the top.

As for other teams, did Toews and the Hawks lose their **** because Quenneville isn't hard enough on them?



Was Laviolette too soft on the Flyers when Giroux went postal?



Nah. They're fiery competitors who can let their emotions boil over. The whole idea that the Pens get riled up because Bylsma's too nice doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[DawgPens]

No. But these scrubs will be gone in 2 months and we would have had Kesler. Who would you rather have playing with Sid, Kesler or Stempniak?

You don't like the pick-ups. Color me shocked.

So tell me, brilliant one, what would you have offered -- that would have been accepted by Vancouver -- for Kelser? Sutter + Matta + a 1st + a second? If so, who do you now plug in on D to take Ollie's place?

Did you acquire a defenseman at the deadline? If so, what did you give away? Oh wait, you ridiculed the idea of picking up experienced blue line depth. So I guess Engo takes Ollie's place?

And suppose the Kesler trade fell through ... Would you have had a plan B? Who would you have acquired, and for what in exchange?

I would love to have you enlighten all of us with the right moves, since you have all the answers. I think we should keep track of your GM moves over the next year, and see how well you do ...

 

[tc 23]

the only people who believe it was Sutter, a 1st and a 2nd are Vancouver fans, who are willingly buying the same song-and-dance that was being sold to them during the Luongo situation.

It's funny.

Bob McKenzie mentioned on Team 1040 today that while he doesn't know the exact offers, he believes Pittsburgh was pushing a package centered around Sutter and picks. He also mentions that when he brought up Pouliot with anyone in the Pittsburgh organization, it was shot down so he doesn't believe Pouliot was on the table.

He starts talking about Kesler offers at around 33:30.

http://www.teamradio.ca/podcast/1040_midday_show/Sekeres_and_Price_March_6th_Hour_3~.mp3

 

[IcedCapp]

Bob McKenzie mentioned on Team 1040 today that while he doesn't know the exact offers, he believes Pittsburgh was pushing a package centered around Sutter and picks. He also mentions that when he brought up Pouliot with anyone in the Pittsburgh organization, it was shot down so he doesn't believe Pouliot was on the table.

He starts talking about Kesler offers at around 33:30.

http://www.teamradio.ca/podcast/1040_midday_show/Sekeres_and_Price_March_6th_Hour_3~.mp3

1) he doesn't know and is speculating.

2) Pouliot isn't our only D prospect.

3) plenty of reports of Despres or Dumoulin and picks being offered.

Now, please don't misunderstand: I'm glad a trade involving Despres or Pouliot didn't go through. I laugh (like, insanely loud) at people who undervalue Despres.

edited for niceness:

4) Stop buying what Gillis and the Vancouver media are selling you.

 

[tc 23]

1) he doesn't know and is speculating.

Which is exactly what I said.

2) Pouliot isn't our only D prospect.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. I never said he was

3) plenty of reports of Despres or Dumoulin and picks being offered.

He also mentions those as pieces and said they wouldn't be significant enough to land Kesler.

Now, please don't misunderstand: I'm glad a trade involving Despres or Pouliot didn't go through. I laugh (like, insanely loud) at people who undervalue Despres.

Alright.

4) Finally, most important: I'm laughing at the Canucks and their fans right now. Your team is a joke. Your players hate the coach. Half your roster is comprised of under-performing malcontents with NTCs. AND, after the conclusion of the most-botched trade situation in NHL history, you (Canucks fans) continue to buy the spin jobs.

Seriously.

I'm not sure what that has to do with Bob McKenzie's interview. I was just coming in here to post the info that was coming out from the Vancouver side for anyone who was curious. However, it seems that isn't welcomed here. I don't appreciate the unprovoked attacks so I will refrain from posting anymore in this thread.

Have a nice day.

 

[#1GuinFan]

1) he doesn't know and is speculating.

2) Pouliot isn't our only D prospect.

3) plenty of reports of Despres or Dumoulin and picks being offered.

Now, please don't misunderstand: I'm glad a trade involving Despres or Pouliot didn't go through. I laugh (like, insanely loud) at people who undervalue Despres.

edited for niceness:

4) Stop buying what Gillis and the Vancouver media are selling you.

So when Bob says it, its speculation, but when Rossi et al says it, its a 'report'? What Bob says here is no different from the numerous articles floating about on the Kesler situation and what the Pens may or may not have offered. A select few know what was offered, and they aren't telling us. We aren't likely to get more definitive information on the offers until A. Kelser is dealt, or B. Vancouver locks him up long term

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Which is exactly what I said.



I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. I never said he was



He also mentions those as pieces and said they wouldn't be significant enough to land Kesler.



Alright.



I'm not sure what that has to do with Bob McKenzie's interview. I was just coming in here to post the info that was coming out from the Vancouver side for anyone who was curious. However, it seems that isn't welcomed here. I don't appreciate the unprovoked attacks so I will refrain from posting anymore in this thread.

Have a nice day.

Don't take it seriously, report is he's a pretty sensitive guy and it's speculated he's very territorial .

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

3rd party reports notwithstanding, I don't see how anyone can read what Shero himself said about Pouliot after the deadline and not reasonably assume that 1) Pouliot was targeted by Gillis and 2) that was rejected by Shero because Pouliot's in his long-term plans.

 

[IcedCapp]

So when Bob says it, its speculation, but when Rossi et al says it, its a 'report'? What Bob says here is no different from the numerous articles floating about on the Kesler situation and what the Pens may or may not have offered. A select few know what was offered, and they aren't telling us. We aren't likely to get more definitive information on the offers until A. Kelser is dealt, or B. Vancouver locks him up long term

It's ALL speculating. I've never said anything different.

The point is, Canucks fans are choosing to believe the speculation that makes them feel better about the dumpster fire.

edit:

I don't believe a word out of Rossi's mouth. I don't know who this "Botchford" ****face is. I don't believe him either.

 

[IcedCapp]

I'm not sure what that has to do with Bob McKenzie's interview. I was just coming in here to post the info that was coming out from the Vancouver side for anyone who was curious. However, it seems that isn't welcomed here. I don't appreciate the unprovoked attacks so I will refrain from posting anymore in this thread.

Have a nice day.

My day is great, I'm watching Stars-Canucks

I know what's coming out of the Vancouver side. The same **** that came out all last year.

I didn't want to break the bank for Kesler (especially when I thought he was going to play 3C), so don't take this as sour grapes, I'm not emotionally attached to Kesler or anything. Your team is just a joke, from top-to-bottom, and believing what they feed you just smacks of desperation, the need to cling to something? I don't know.

I wouldn't believe a word out of Gillis' mouth.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Which is exactly what I said.



I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. I never said he was



He also mentions those as pieces and said they wouldn't be significant enough to land Kesler.



Alright.



I'm not sure what that has to do with Bob McKenzie's interview. I was just coming in here to post the info that was coming out from the Vancouver side for anyone who was curious. However, it seems that isn't welcomed here. I don't appreciate the unprovoked attacks so I will refrain from posting anymore in this thread.

Have a nice day.

I appreciated the link. Thanks.

 

[IcedCapp]

Oh, just to the Bob McKenzie thing one more time:

Bob has never been in on the Kesler situation. Everything he "reported" was just him repeating/piggybacking something he heard from elsewhere. Go back and read/watch/listen to everything he said on this.

He never had inside information, he never broke news, he never moved the story.

If you disagree with that, go back and read/listen/watch everything he said on the subject and then accept you were wrong. Bob McKenzie isn't the alpha and omega of every hockey deal.

 

[Fire Shero*]

You don't like the pick-ups. Color me shocked.

So tell me, brilliant one, what would you have offered -- that would have been accepted by Vancouver -- for Kelser? Sutter + Matta + a 1st + a second? If so, who do you now plug in on D to take Ollie's place?

Did you acquire a defenseman at the deadline? If so, what did you give away? Oh wait, you ridiculed the idea of picking up experienced blue line depth. So I guess Engo takes Ollie's place?

And suppose the Kesler trade fell through ... Would you have had a plan B? Who would you have acquired, and for what in exchange?

I would love to have you enlighten all of us with the right moves, since you have all the answers. I think we should keep track of your GM moves over the next year, and see how well you do ...

First off, I wouldn't start 2013-14 season with so many weaknesses.
I wouldn't have traded for Murray or Morrow last year.

I wouldn't have re-signed Scuderi, Dupuis or Adams.

This isn't hindsight 2020 bs. Shero has been making this roster worse for quite sometime.

I don't think Stempniak and Goc were bad pickups. But these type of players should have been signed before the season. We didn't have a poor deadline, it's just disappointing that we couldn't land Sid his winger.

It just seems like Shero sits on his ass all summer and doesn't so anything until the deadline. Again, all of our top 6 wingers were acquired at or around the deadline. So I had higher hopes.

 

[ozpensfan]

one thing i dont get, im still 50/50 on Shero right now but....

How did someone like Gaborik, Moulson and Vanek fetch 2nd rounders and mid level prospects yet we werent able to get a single winger for the top line. Yes we got some 3rd line depth - but it was a buyers market and we totally got left behind by focusing on Kesler and not having a backup. Just baffles me.

 

[KIRK]

Every team in the league has to deal with poor officiating. It's the NHL. Some teams learn to live with it, others don't.

And I think the fact that there's no adversity in the locker room ever absolutely lends itself to some of the meltdowns and lack of discipline.

When you're used to absolutely no tension, with nobody in your ear telling you what you did was wrong or selfish, no wonder Neal goes out and knees a guy in the head. No wonder Geno takes an offensive zone slash seemingly every game. Who wouldn't want to play for a coach who never holds you accountable for anything?

And when you're used to everything being all rainbows in the locker room, is it any surprise that when another team gets in your face like Philly a couple of years ago or Boston last year, that the usual suspects take a hissy fit instead of fighting through it?

I wonder also if it's the wrong kind of adversity when there is some.

Go back to game 1 Boston. Pens are going to do onto the PP going into the third. During that scrum to end the second, Malkin and Bergeron get into a fight.

Malkin is a top PP guy, but the Pens PP could've been Sid, Iginla, Neal, Kunitz, Letang without him. Bergeron is the Bruins top PK forward and was absolutely torturing Sid from the opening drop of the puck in game one.

What I heard from the Pens and their PR machine posing as an independent media, to a man, including the idiot coach and the 'leaders' like Orpik and with the sole exception of Niskanen, was how selfish and stupid what Malkin did was. There was your 'adversity' in the Pens locker room going into the third of that game.

You know what I heard from the Bruins players? Not how dumb it was for their top PK forward to take himself off the ice. No, what I heard from them, to a man, was how seeing Bergeron of all people fighting lit a fire under their *****.

That right there is what's wrong with the Pens. It's not just that there's a lack of adversity in the locker room. It's that they shrink as an organization from it whenever it surfaces and castigate anyone for dealing with it the right way.

****, one of the few times in his career Geno's emotions lead him to do the right thing, the same thing Bergeron did. Both of them sent the same message . . . 'who's with me'. In Boston's locker room, the answer was all of us. In the Pens locker room, not just crickets, but admonishment.

If it were just a lack of adversity, then it might not be as bad. The problem, though, is a lot more complex and pronounced.

 

[ObsessedCreative*]

one thing i dont get, im still 50/50 on Shero right now but....

How did someone like Gaborik, Moulson and Vanek fetch 2nd rounders and mid level prospects yet we werent able to get a single winger for the top line. Yes we got some 3rd line depth - but it was a buyers market and we totally got left behind by focusing on Kesler and not having a backup. Just baffles me.

I guess someone doesn't know of or understand this thing called a salary cap...

 

[The Tang]

one thing i dont get, im still 50/50 on Shero right now but....

How did someone like Gaborik, Moulson and Vanek fetch 2nd rounders and mid level prospects yet we werent able to get a single winger for the top line. Yes we got some 3rd line depth - but it was a buyers market and we totally got left behind by focusing on Kesler and not having a backup. Just baffles me.

Looking at the teams that got those guys, they're all likely to have better draft positions than the Pens, making their pick worth more. Further, I do believe it was forwards prospects that changed hands in those deals, which the Pens don't really have. For all we know, Shero did offer similar packages and the selling teams just liked what the others offered more.

 

[mpp9]

Seems as though the Bruins were after Edler to counter our possibility of landing Kesler. Decent article. Not sure how reputable the writer is, but I could definitely see both teams revisiting this in the offseason.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/03/07/bruins-potential-deal-with-canucks-shelved/tCUaNYF27MQtNy1i5Qe75K/story.html

Last night's game reinforced to me that this team would be drastically better with Kesler. Play him on the third line? You have one that can help turn the tide of games. With Sid? You have an elite and physical two way forward to help Sid match up against the best in the league. In particular last night, against Pavelski, Thornton, Burns and Vlasic.

 

[zhenyas most fly rep]

Since the post game thread has been closed, I will post my thoughts here.

So you like Bylsma coaching this team huh? he will be here another 10 years if we won the cup.

2009-2019

Ouch, looks like we're only halfway through.

If we didn't have the two best players of the decade in the team, I'd say that winning the cup is definitely worth it though.
But this team so much frustrating to watch, these last 4 years have been such a waste..


Onto that particular game, more than the usual issues that have been plaguing this team all season long and will continue to do so until the season is over, one of the thing that was particularly evident last night was our total lack of positive leadership.
We have some leadership but it's definitely most of the time a negative leadership. The only players that bring on the ice, on a regular basis, some positive elements in that domain would be Bortuzzo and Glass.
Others are either following the movement or are dragging the team down in that category, which leads me to...

For some time now our most vocal leader has been Orpik and he just sets a terrible example on the ice, game in game out. (just talking about his attitude here, I won't even address his level of play)
Say all you want about Dupuis, but I think we miss him a ton in the locker room.
Then there's our coaching staff, I think they are the exact opposite of the kind of leadership you would want behind the bench with such a leaderless squad on the ice.

This team sorely miss guys like Gonchar, Talbot, Cooke, Roberts, Malone, Guerin to name a few that were never replaced.

Also, bringing leadership at the deadline like Shero did last year may not be the best idea,(even if I applaud the fact that he tried) I think you have to get them from the start of the year and involve them on a longer term (at least 2 years)

 

[billybudd]

Seems as though the Bruins were after Edler to counter our possibility of landing Kesler. Decent article. Not sure how reputable the writer is, but I could definitely see both teams revisiting this in the offseason.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/03/07/bruins-potential-deal-with-canucks-shelved/tCUaNYF27MQtNy1i5Qe75K/story.html

Last night's game reinforced to me that this team would be drastically better with Kesler. Play him on the third line? You have one that can help turn the tide of games. With Sid? You have an elite and physical two way forward to help Sid match up against the best in the league. In particular last night, against Pavelski, Thornton, Burns and Vlasic.

Fluto Shinzawa's reputable. Though he is using Rossi as a source for the Pittsburgh offer, looks like.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

one thing i dont get, im still 50/50 on Shero right now but....

How did someone like Gaborik, Moulson and Vanek fetch 2nd rounders and mid level prospects yet we werent able to get a single winger for the top line. Yes we got some 3rd line depth - but it was a buyers market and we totally got left behind by focusing on Kesler and not having a backup. Just baffles me.

Shero is only the "best trading GM in the league", he's not a wizard. How could he possibly pursue more than one player at a time???

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

1) he doesn't know and is speculating.

2) Pouliot isn't our only D prospect.

3) plenty of reports of Despres or Dumoulin and picks being offered.

Now, please don't misunderstand: I'm glad a trade involving Despres or Pouliot didn't go through. I laugh (like, insanely loud) at people who undervalue Despres.

edited for niceness:

4) Stop buying what Gillis and the Vancouver media are selling you.

How do you define "undervalue" when it comes to Despres? I ask because one distinction I think is sorely missed around here is that there's a big difference between the potential to be a good solid player and being attractive enough to be a big piece of a trade. Do I think Despres is probably going to be a nice Dman? Yeah I think he probably will be. The main piece in a deal for an established player who would make an impact on a Cup team? No, I'm heavily leaning towards him not having that upside. Am I undervaluing him?