Post-Game Talk: The Deadline is over (cont'd)

[alcanalz]

2014 NHL Deadline Day - Pens' Roster Talk

Continue here.

And to continue from the last thread,

Haha exactly. I never understood that argument. Instead we should draft defensemen who we can trade in 3-4 years for a winger. Makes perfect sense, right?

You always, always, draft BPA.

Click to read more...

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Sorry if people are tired of talking, but I had more to say.

Being completely serious:

IMO, the best thing that could happen this year would be an 2nd round embarrassment to PHI or NYR that get's DB fired (any maybe Shero).

The Pens won't win with him behind the bench and the soonet he's gone the better.

Exactly!

no complaints about shero's deadline today, both were good moves.

major complaints about his past ~1 year. still no winger for crosby, still relying on the worst playoff goalie in the league, still employing bylsma... shero needs to start making some tough decisions.

I'm with you, TTEOT. Personally, I'd have tried to get Brodeur. I don't think it would have cost much at all. He wants out, but feels stuck in Jersey. I still think he has something left, but he's not backup material. He is too used to playing.

Again terrible argument! Stamkos is 24 years old, likely his best years are ahead of him. They also traded a 38 year old player albeit a damn good one. But they aren't necessarily a now team, they have far more time to develop their young talent and still have SS in his prime then say PIT does.

We have young talent, too. And we need some time to develop them, because they're BETTER THAN SOME OF OUR REGULARS.

We'll be better when we replace Orpik with Despres, full time. We'll be better when Scott Harrington replaces Rob Scuderi. We'll be better when Derrick Pouliot cracks the lineup (either for Letang or Martin or I guess Niskanen if he's here).

Up front, there are countless players who are better than Craig Adams, Taylor Pyatt, Tanner Glass, Chris Conner. And let's not even begin with the whole Pascal Dupuis RW1 talk.

Developing young talent wins. Period.

Even if we grab this kid (whom I have no idea who you're talking about--haven't put much into the draft prospects yet), barring something miraculous happening, he's still yeeeears away from even being in Bennett's position, where he's trying desperately to crack the lineup and claw his way onto a scoring line.

It's one thing to take Selanne and Jagr as examples. Those are pretty radical examples. You need guys who play Kesler's game to succeed. Teams just don't win in the playoffs without that kind of player. Chicago had Bolland and has Toews. We had Staal. Boston has Bergeron. Now, we have Brandon Sutter... Not good enough.

I don't think Kesler would have been a problem. He explicitly said he wanted to come here, knowing full well what that meant. He'd either be playing on the wing with Sid and Kunitz, or he'd be the keystone in this team's shift back to the 3C model. And what's wrong with playing him more than Sid? Kesler plays in more situations than Sid. It also keeps Sid more fresh for focusing entirely on offensive production.

On your first point, the kid's name is Nick Ritchie, a left-winger for the Peterborough Petes. We need this player. Kunitz won't be around forever. Jokinen may not be around this summer. Bennett may not play left wing if we need him to play right wing. A true power forward. Oh dare to dream.

I'm glad you brought up Dave Bolland, because that is making my argument for me. Why did Chicago trade such a vital cog to their Cup run? Hard game. Broken down physically. Oh sure, it's bad luck that Bolland has been out this long this season. And he's smaller than Kesler. Still, smart organizations know when to trade players.

Judging by what we did last summer with Dupuis and Adams, what we may do with Orpik, we simply don't know when to get rid of some of these older warrior types.

As for your last point, no I'm sorry but if Kesler plays more minutes than either Crosby or Malkin, we're NOT building this team the right way again. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about that.

 

[Fire Shero*]

I'm really disappointed in Mario and Ron. Burkle doesn't seem like the type to accept incompetence. We have an incompetent GM who continues to make this roster worse each year and our coach is a gee fee fool.

But they're here much like herpes . They just don't go away and are terrible.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm really disappointed in Mario and Ron. Burkle doesn't seem like the type to accept incompetence. We have an incompetent GM who continues to make this roster worse each year and our coach is a gee fee fool.

But they're here much like herpes . They just don't go away and are terrible.

I saw that line on Twitter earlier today. I assume you did too!

 

[MrBurghundy]

Continue here.

And to continue from the last thread,



You always, always, draft BPA.

That's extremely stupid, just like always drafting for need. You need to evaluate your team and pick the player that best fits. If you have a bazillion defensemen and your GM is reluctant to trade them because their value is too low, and your coach is reluctant to play them to increase their value, then what's the point of drafting more defensemen? At some point you need forwards too (they do after all take up 66% of the skaters you are allowed to ice). Especially considering how hard it is to make good hockey trades in the first place, along with the inherent worry of why the other team is trading that guy. How often do you see a prospect for prospect swap? Or a swap of young NHL'ers with a year or two worth of experience? Not very often. If another team likes their young player, they will probably want to keep him because they don't want to get burned if he develops more than expected, and if they don't like him then what's wrong with the guy? Maybe nothing, but that would send up a red flag to me if I was a GM.

Then there really isn't any comfort in knowing you can always sign a free agent, because the prices are extremely over inflated there, and a team up against the cap like the Penguins just can't afford to overpay.

BPA can back you into a corner just as easily as drafting for need if you let it, which we are coming up on right now. Orpik will either be lost for nothing, or re-signed which means one more roster spot taken up for a prospect to earn a good reputation. Then we signed Scuderi... same deal. Letang could be traded once we know what we are getting with Pouliot, but do you really think Shero will ever do something like that given his past history? Niskanen is probably going to get a contract, and rightfully so, but there's another roster spot gone.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

wrong thread

 

[66-30-33]

I saw that line on Twitter earlier today. I assume you did too!

What happened?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

That's extremely stupid, just like always drafting for need. You need to evaluate your team and pick the player that best fits. If you have a bazillion defensemen and your GM is reluctant to trade them because their value is too low, and your coach is reluctant to play them to increase their value, then what's the point of drafting more defensemen? At some point you need forwards too (they do after all take up 66% of the skaters you are allowed to ice). Especially considering how hard it is to make good hockey trades in the first place, along with the inherent worry of why the other team is trading that guy.

Then there really isn't any comfort in knowing you can always sign a free agent, because the prices are extremely over inflated there, and a team up against the cap like the Penguins just can't afford to overpay.

BPA can back you into a corner just as easily as drafting for need if you let it, which we are coming up on right now. Orpik will either be lost for nothing, or re-signed which means one more roster spot taken up for a prospect to earn a good reputation. Then we signed Scuderi... same deal. Letang could be traded once we know what we are getting with Pouliot, but do you really think Shero will ever do something like that given his past history? Niskanen is probably going to get a contract, and rightfully so, but there's another roster spot gone.

I couldn't agree more. And I would add that if the BPA is a goaltender, pass and take the next guy. I'm talking first round, of course. The other rounds, BPA usually works.

But a first-round investment in a goaltender who will likely be 25-26 when he's ready in a cap world is complete roster suicide.

AND, if you take CHLers in Round 1, there's a very good chance they'll be ready earlier than U.S. high schoolers or NCAA products, or Swedish/Finnish/Czech/Slovakian/etc. talent. Russians should be case-by-case issues, imo, for many reasons.

 

[alcanalz]

That's extremely stupid, just like always drafting for need. You need to evaluate your team and pick the player that best fits. If you have a bazillion defensemen and your GM is reluctant to trade them because their value is too low, and your coach is reluctant to play them to increase their value, then what's the point of drafting more defensemen? At some point you need forwards too (they do after all take up 66% of the skaters you are allowed to ice). Especially considering how hard it is to make good hockey trades in the first place, along with the inherent worry of why the other team is trading that guy.

Then there really isn't any comfort in knowing you can always sign a free agent, because the prices are extremely over inflated there, and a team up against the cap like the Penguins just can't afford to overpay.

BPA can back you into a corner just as easily as drafting for need if you let it, which we are coming up on right now. Orpik will either be lost for nothing, or re-signed which means one more roster spot taken up for a prospect to earn a good reputation. Then we signed Scuderi... same deal. Letang could be traded once we know what we are getting with Pouliot, but do you really think Shero will ever do something like that given his past history? Niskanen is probably going to get a contract, and rightfully so, but there's another roster spot gone.

If their value is too low, then they're busts. You never draft a talented scoring winger if you think he's not going to become better than the D-Man that you could be taking, solely because you need a forward. Drafting is ridiculously difficult. You draft BPA in order to get the best player, regardless of whether you need that position or not. If worst, comes to worst, you deal that asset for something of need.

Now, I understand you're talking about Despres, but there are still a lot of maybes involved there.

Edit: If one of the mods could merge one of these two threads... that'd be nice. Created about the same time, sorry.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

At the very least, I'm looking forward to seeing a legit top 9 NHL winger on Sid's RW tomorrow.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

What happened?

This line:
"But they're here much like herpes . They just don't go away and are terrible."

 

[KeepitinPitt]

Continue here.

And to continue from the last thread,



You always, always, draft BPA.

Yeah I keep hearing this, except in reality the draft doesn't shake out like that. I understand hindsight is 20/20 but was Joe Morrow really the BPA? Even at the time that was highly questionable. I think at some point you need to evaluate your franchise and determine who would be best player as well as the best fit for the team.

Just to clarify, because I think my post might have been a little vague. What I mean is, there is never a clear cut "BPA", even amongst the scouts. I'd be extremely surprised if every Penguins scout agreed on who to pick. IMO you do your best to build a well balanced pool of prospects, which we clearly haven't had in a long time.

 

[66-30-33]

This line:
"But they're here much like herpes . They just don't go away and are terrible."

Oh, i thought you were meaning Burkle was pissed on twitter or something.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

If their value is too low, then they're busts. You never draft a talented scoring winger if you think he's not going to become better than the D-Man that you could be taking, solely because you need a forward. Drafting is ridiculously difficult. You draft BPA in order to get the best player, regardless of whether you need that position or not. If worst, comes to worst, you deal that asset for something of need.

Now, I understand you're talking about Despres, but there are still a lot of maybes involved there.

Edit: If one of the mods could merge one of these two threads... that'd be nice. Created about the same time, sorry.

Yeah, my bad I didn't see yours.

 

[MrBurghundy]

If their value is too low, then they're busts. You never draft a talented scoring winger if you think he's not going to become better than the D-Man that you could be taking, solely because you need a forward. Drafting is ridiculously difficult. You draft BPA in order to get the best player, regardless of whether you need that position or not. If worst, comes to worst, you deal that asset for something of need.

Now, I understand you're talking about Despres, but there are still a lot of maybes involved there.

Edit: If one of the mods could merge one of these two threads... that'd be nice. Created about the same time, sorry.

Did you even read what I typed? Our entire problem is that we AREN'T DEALING THOSE ASSETS. We aren't dealing Orpik. We aren't dealing Despres (and shouldn't for his minimal return). We aren't dealing Pouliot. We ARE signing guys like Scuderi. We will sign a guy like Niskanen.

When is it going to stop? When are they finally going to maximize this deep pool of assets they've collected by drafting BPA? Because right now Crosby has only one winger that isn't getting any younger, and Malkin has Neal. Both need somebody to play with, and the rest of our bottom 6 is ****.

Either put up or shut up at this point. If they had decided they already had literally too many defenseman in their pipeline than could ever suit up for the big club (and were unwilling to move guys to even make room), and instead drafted a forward or two we'd be in a much better position. Just because they didn't draft a forward doesn't mean he's going to be a bust too BTW.

My whole argument is that BPA all the time is just as moronic as drafting for need all the time. You need to balance it out. You can never be stuck to one line of thinking like a horse with blinders on (which Shero has shown he can be sometimes). That gets you painted into a corner where it's tough to get out from. You don't think all the other teams around the league don't see our situation on defense? They know that we will have to do something here soon or risk losing some of these players for minimal returns or nothing at all.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

On your first point, the kid's name is Nick Ritchie, a left-winger for the Peterborough Petes. We need this player. Kunitz won't be around forever. Jokinen may not be around this summer. Bennett may not play left wing if we need him to play right wing. A true power forward. Oh dare to dream.

I'm glad you brought up Dave Bolland, because that is making my argument for me. Why did Chicago trade such a vital cog to their Cup run? Hard game. Broken down physically. Oh sure, it's bad luck that Bolland has been out this long this season. And he's smaller than Kesler. Still, smart organizations know when to trade players.

Judging by what we did last summer with Dupuis and Adams, what we may do with Orpik, we simply don't know when to get rid of some of these older warrior types.

As for your last point, no I'm sorry but if Kesler plays more minutes than either Crosby or Malkin, we're NOT building this team the right way again. I don't understand what's so hard to understand about that.

The kid sounds interesting for sure after a cursory look into it. Can't wait to pass on him.

Bolland was moved because of his salary demands on a team that was pressed to the cap, a la Staal. In a perfect world, neither would have left their respective teams. They parlayed extremely effective, clutch play while insulated by stars into huge contracts by teams hoping they'd be their guy.

Agreed on the Orpik/Adams/Dupuis front. I like Dupuis, he's an effective player, but we need to utilize him properly. He'd be an outstanding third liner, which is where he needs to play. Problem is, it's literally akin to murder in Shero/Bylsma's eyes to play him anywhere but Sid's RW. They then use Dupuis' overachieving play as evidence that we don't need a real winger for Sid. That's unacceptable, and nauseating. I'm fully expecting and as prepared as I can be for Shero to re-sign Orpik to a retirement deal this summer, regardless of his atrocious play now, in the upcoming playoffs, and going back several years now--since the Cup really.

I'm not saying Kesler is going to get more time than Sid or Geno on any given night, but there would probably be nights where Kesler would be played more. He plays in all situations, while Sid and Geno are simply offensive/power play guys. Kesler can play ES, PK, power play, defensive situations, etc. It's not unreasonable to have a guy like that log slightly more time than one dimensional players on occasion.

Olli Maatta's 19 years old. He helps our stars NOW more than any acquisition we could have made today.

You CAN win with young players, this just in.

Maatta is an aberration, not the norm. You know that, Jags. Saying Shero needs to hoard prospects in hopes of finding a forward with Maatta's impact is as unrealistic as thinking Gladams and Orpik will be effective hockey players for your team.

I'm all for drafting/developing wingers. Problem is, Shero and the scouting team have a system that they stubbornly (to a detrimental degree) stick to and do not deviate from.

I'd have loved to see Saad drafted by the Pens a few years ago. Would have been a phenomenal pick. Instead, we picked a guy who we shortly after gave up on as a colossal bust and flipped him for a Brenden Morrow who was about 3 or more years beyond his expiration date.

We can hope and pray Shero and the scouts start to draft and develop solid forwards, but that's wishful thinking to say the least. Beyond Bennett, there's nobody even close in the pipeline. The fact that we have to put all of our eggs in one basket with a guy who can't seem to get or stay healthy is troubling. I love Bennett, and think he can be a very effective guy if he ever gets healthy. My issue with the entire situation is if he manages to not work out (keep in mind we all thought Despres was the next coming before he started to get Bylsma'd) for whatever reason, we are up **** creek without a paddle, boys. The only other forward that comes to mind is Sundqvist, and I'm not holding my breath with him.

Hindsight is 20/20, but looking back, we've really biffed some drafts. Passing on Saad, Trouba, Forsberg, Ryan O'Reilly (I'll give a pass on this one, he was a huge steal)... Those are some tremendous, impact players that we passed on. Some of which were absolute no-brainer, slam dunk picks (Saad, Trouba).

 

[alcanalz]

Yeah I keep hearing this, except in reality the draft doesn't shake out like that. I understand hindsight is 20/20 but was Joe Morrow really the BPA? Even at the time that was highly questionable. I think at some point you need to evaluate your franchise and determine who would be best player as well as the best fit for the team.

Alright, but drafting a highly-skilled winger who works hard but never pans out does nothing for us. Again, drafting is incredibly hard. Morrow was a top-15 ranked NA skater. Shero and staff took him because, of all the people left on the board, they thought he'd be the best professional. That's what you do.

And sorry to Jags, although I think it was pretty much the same time.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Drafting Morrow was not necessarily a bad decision. Trading him before you even know what you have, and for a pure rental at that, is sheer lunacy.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Alright, but drafting a highly-skilled winger who works hard but never pans out does nothing for us. Again, drafting is incredibly hard. Morrow was a top-15 ranked NA skater. Shero and staff took him because, of all the people left on the board, they thought he'd be the best professional. That's what you do.

And sorry to Jags, although I think it was pretty much the same time.

You know what else does nothing for us? Drafting a million defensemen with no plan on how to build an NHL team with Crosby and Malkin on it from that plan.

 

[alcanalz]

Did you even read what I typed? Our entire problem is that we AREN'T DEALING THOSE ASSETS. We aren't dealing Orpik. We aren't dealing Despres (and shouldn't for his minimal return). We aren't dealing Pouliot. We ARE signing guys like Scuderi. We will sign a guy like Niskanen.

When is it going to stop? When are they finally going to maximize this deep pool of assets they've collected by drafting BPA? Because right now Crosby has only one winger that isn't getting any younger, and Malkin has Neal. Both need somebody to play with, and the rest of our bottom 6 is ****.

Either put up or shut up at this point. If they had decided they already had literally too many defenseman in their pipeline than could ever suit up for the big club (and were unwilling to move guys to even make room), and instead drafted a forward or two we'd be in a much better position. Just because they didn't draft a forward doesn't mean he's going to be a bust too BTW.

My whole argument is that BPA all the time is just as moronic as drafting for need all the time. You need to balance it out.

Maybe our deep pool of defensive prospects isn't that deep. We have at least three D who are either getting old or not going to be around soon, in Orpik, Scuderi, and Engo, or hell possibly Nisky if he prices himself out. Added to the fact that most prospects don't pan out...

If Shero believed all of these assets on D were too much, he'd deal one of them for a forward. What I believe, is that he believes we're going to need them, or that some of them won't pan out (obviously). Christ, Letang just had a stroke. Don't you think that played in to keeping Pouliot, who otherwise might have been dealt for a need?

I'll never argue that drafting anything other than BPA is the right choice. Unless it's something crazy like a first overall versus second overall, but that ****'s not in our cards. Drafting is stupidly hard and you always get the biggest asset you can.

 

[USMC607]

Unless Beau can step up and become the legit 1st line RW and shake these injuries every month.

The only way we get a legit RW for Crosby in the next 2 yrs is if we trade some assets to get one. Gotta give to get.

With how far back in the draft we normally are now i don't see any of the picks within these 2 yrs making the team right out the gate (Although you never know)

But like i said if we all want a legit RW for Sid we are gonna have to trade some of those assests at D. Unless Beau steps up.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

The kid sounds interesting for sure after a cursory look into it. Can't wait to pass on him.

Bolland was moved because of his salary demands on a team that was pressed to the cap, a la Staal. In a perfect world, neither would have left their respective teams. They parlayed extremely effective, clutch play while insulated by stars into huge contracts by teams hoping they'd be their guy.

Agreed on the Orpik/Adams/Dupuis front. I like Dupuis, he's an effective player, but we need to utilize him properly. He'd be an outstanding third liner, which is where he needs to play. Problem is, it's literally akin to murder in Shero/Bylsma's eyes to play him anywhere but Sid's RW. They then use Dupuis' overachieving play as evidence that we don't need a real winger for Sid. That's unacceptable, and nauseating. I'm fully expecting and as prepared as I can be for Shero to re-sign Orpik to a retirement deal this summer, regardless of his atrocious play now, in the upcoming playoffs, and going back several years now--since the Cup really.

I'm not saying Kesler is going to get more time than Sid or Geno on any given night, but there would probably be nights where Kesler would be played more. He plays in all situations, while Sid and Geno are simply offensive/power play guys. Kesler can play ES, PK, power play, defensive situations, etc. It's not unreasonable to have a guy like that log slightly more time than one dimensional players on occasion.



Maatta is an aberration, not the norm. You know that, Jags. Saying Shero needs to hoard prospects in hopes of finding a forward with Maatta's impact is as unrealistic as thinking Gladams and Orpik will be effective hockey players for your team.

I'm all for drafting/developing wingers. Problem is, Shero and the scouting team have a system that they stubbornly (to a detrimental degree) stick to and do not deviate from.

I'd have loved to see Saad drafted by the Pens a few years ago. Would have been a phenomenal pick. Instead, we picked a guy who we shortly after gave up on as a colossal bust and flipped him for a Brenden Morrow who was about 3 or more years beyond his expiration date.

We can hope and pray Shero and the scouts start to draft and develop solid forwards, but that's wishful thinking to say the least. Beyond Bennett, there's nobody even close in the pipeline. The fact that we have to put all of our eggs in one basket with a guy who can't seem to get or stay healthy is troubling. I love Bennett, and think he can be a very effective guy if he ever gets healthy. My issue with the entire situation is if he manages to not work out (keep in mind we all thought Despres was the next coming before he started to get Bylsma'd) for whatever reason, we are up **** creek without a paddle, boys. The only other forward that comes to mind is Sundqvist, and I'm not holding my breath with him.

Hindsight is 20/20, but looking back, we've really biffed some drafts. Passing on Saad, Trouba, Forsberg, Ryan O'Reilly (I'll give a pass on this one, he was a huge steal)... Those are some tremendous, impact players that we passed on. Some of which were absolute no-brainer, slam dunk picks (Saad, Trouba).

We agree on a lot of things, Coach.

The difference is you accept the current regime for what they are and try to adapt to them. I'll never accept the regime because it's fatally flawed in many many ways.

But yeah, we're right there.

 

[ozpensfan]

this team is getting bounced in the early rounds of the playoffs. major let down today especially with what the top line forwards were commanding at the deadline

 

[Michael8771*]

Well, I'm pretty much typed out at this point. Started posting around 8am. It's been an interesting day to say the least. I enjoyed the exchanges on the board today. Maybe next years TDL will be better.

 

[pensfan71]

http://triblive.com/sports/joestark...viewpenguins+(Penguins+Stories)#axzz2v9elnMG0

Good enough read