The Curious Case of Colton Orr

[pucci2001]

It does, no question.

If lasts years post season doesn't prove that I don't know what else could.

 

[JackJ]

So a thread that started off as basically pondering whether Orr's playing through an injury has turned into a 5-page debate about whether watching a fight has a positive effect on the psychology of a player?

Screw Corsi/QoC, let's develop some advanced statistics using some sort of fighting-metrics. Figure out the exact timing and frequency of fights, as well as combination of fighters, that has the greatest positive impact on team output.

Goals for/against and puck possession before and after after a winning/losing a fight would be a start.

 

[Goonface2k14]

And you continue to ignore the deterrence aspect of having designated fighters.

Contrary to your beliefs, giving Leivo 6 minutes a night is not optimal for his development. He's a top-6 forward in the making, he's not being put in a situation to succeed with fourth line minutes. That's a great way to ruin a player and waste valuable years of his development.

Also, it's Bodie. Keep up.

Phaneuf's not much of a fighter. He's a great open-ice hitter (although more hesitant in recent years to show that side of himself), but he wins as many as he loses and won't often be found fighting heavyweights. Having watched a lot of Clarkson's fights he does a lot of hugging. Plus, who knows how good Fraser will be at dropping the gloves after his injury. From my recollection, his fight in the Montreal game was nothing special.

Again, I still don't understand why you would want our top overall defenceman, a top-6 forward and our best penalty killing defenceman out fighting battles when Orr can do it better and allow them to stay in the game and away from injury risk.

Orr fills a role with this team whether you like it or not. You also give him less credit than he deserves. He finishes every hit and has improved his skating tremendously while cutting down on stupid minor penalties. While it's not necessary to dress both Orr and McLaren on a nightly basis, I bet you that every single player in the Leafs dressing room, to a man, feels more at ease when one of these guys are dressed for a game. And that's what matters most.

My apologies to the Bodie family - no disrespect intended.

Perhaps Leivo plays very well with his 6 minutes, and gets more minutes in following games? There's nothing set in stone there. His "development" will be fine, and likely better, if he is playing at an NHL pace, even if its for less minutes a game. Quality over quantity, and still has the chance to earn more minutes in place of someone higher up not earning their minutes. Line juggling is healthy, IMO.

Fights aren't the only deterrent to other teams taking cheapshots or runs at our star players. Overall physical play works too. Scrums in front of the net that usually end up with Fraser Franson or Phaneuf in your face are intimidating to tiny Monteal forwards. And also think about who Orr fights when he is in the lineup. Check out his fight history on hockeyfights.com. He fights the other team's goon almost every time.

 

[Raptactics29]

Goals for/against and puck possession before and after after a winning/losing a fight would be a start.

With only my personal experience to draw my conclusion from, not NHL calibre hockey, but still hockey that was meaningful nevertheless. Almost a guarantee that every time a meaningful, well-contested fight went down, whether our teammate won or lost, you could definitely feel the effects as there was an incredible increase in game speed, any sloppiness would disappear with everything in game becoming sharp and crisp, as well as the physicality intensified. Of course, the situation and team you're were playing against are huge factors in whether the fight has a major effect on the passion of the players, and the level of intensity the game will be contested at post scrap. One-sided fights could also have a positive effect on the team of the winner. Watching your teammate annihilate some dude during a scrap is usually pretty entertaining and gets the blood pumping, although sometimes that can have a "you're dead" effect on the team of the embarrassed player who had his manhood questioned by his opponents fists connecting with his face/head. Meaningless fights are still awesome, although the effect is minimal or nonexistent on the outcome of the game, as well the intensity of the game play. There's absolutely no denying the effect a fight can have over a game. Even the potential of a fight, or even the opponent knowing that a team has an intimidating heavyweight that's not to be messed with can have an effect over how a game's played, and the intensity a team brings during the game.

 

[Goonface2k14]

I never once debated your preference of having skilled players who can fight. I argued the possibility of players gaining adrenaline/momentum from all sorts of situations - yes, and that includes physical confrontations on the ice, even if they are staged. Players often talk about how a fight or huge hit can get players into the game, even if the altercation isn't born purely from an emotionally heated moment.

You've already contradicted yourself here though. You had said:



Then you followed up with that player quote to support the bolded part of your statement. You made a blanket statement about how players feel about staged fighting. That is what my entire rebuttal was based on. Your personal feelings and a story from a former player doesn't give you the platform to make such a sweeping comment. Now you say:



Well that was the point I was trying to drive home to you. Players have expressed their support and appreciation for the Orrs and Browns in the league.Just because you don't like the roles they play doesn't mean you can make a reference to their roles being uninspiring to their teammates. According to players around the league, that simply isn't true.

I brought up the belief in adrenaline and momentum to rebuttal the blanket statement you made (and then tried to support with the anecdotal example). I'm not arguing what players would prefer if giving the choice, I'm arguing the possibility that they appreciate and do feed off of physical confrontations on the ice, even if they are staged. You need to be careful with what you're saying because you're contradicting yourself. First you said that players know what's going on and it isn't inspiring

Well then we agree, for the most part. My argument is that if the skilled players are tough enough to handle themselves, they don’t need the bodyguards who can’t do anything else. Instead, those pure goon types, like Orr, should be replaced with skilled players, like Leivo. Gives Carlyle better options, gives the team a better chance at winning.

If the skilled players don’t have a tough as nails character amongst them, then perhaps you’re forced to play a guy like Orr, to protect your tiny fast guys. But that should be a last resort, because that goon does more bad than good to the team’s chances for success.

I disagree with the notion that most players get adrenaline from staged fights. To me, that’s two goons dancing because, well, that’s what they do. It’s all very routine. And I think most fights are exactly that – staged. Watch tonight, for example. Orr and Belesky. Everyone knows going into the game that they are the token goons for the night. Who is going to get all pumped up if they match up against one another and fight (aside from the ACC crowd)? Now on the other hand, if say Perry decides to drive Kessel’s head through the glass, retaliation from the Leafs players should be expected. Would Orr picking a fight with Beleskey be the answer to that? I highly doubt it. Again, its two goons going at it, doing their thing. Nothing to do with Perry. The only real heart pumping retaliation would be someone going after Perry. And something like this (Perry going after Kessel) is a fairly rare occurance. Its typically the usual suspects (Kaleta, Cooke) who play that way, and hopefully get punished by the league accordingly. In the game, I have no issue risking a potential injury to Clarkson/Phaneuf/Fraser challenging Kaleta or Cooke or Perry (on the rare occasion he does something like that) or some other cheap shot artist hiding behind his equipment and stick, because they'll likely still be able to handle themselves against a guy like that, and its not something thats going to happen every night. The benefit of Leivo outweighs the cost of Orr, IMO.