The Curious Case of Colton Orr

[Goonface2k14]

Pretty much what you said. Spot on.



This comment really is a facepalm to read. Love at the end how you add in "That's how you win." Call up the Carlyles, Juliens, Hitchcocks, Sutters and tell them that.

You are selling Orr short. He isn't a liability on the ice.

Like the BauerHockey mentioned. You have a different opinion. Don't come across and say "That's how you win" like you are a coach who knows what he is doing.

If you have any of their numbers I'd be glad to call them up.

Yes, these are differing opinions, and its my opinion that skill wins more games than fighting does.

Orr is a liability out there, because he is as about as pure of a goon as it gets. No real hockey skills. If they took fighting out of the game, Orr would be unemployed immediately. He serves no benefit to the team other than to be a hired goon. An insurance policy, if you will.

And you know what fires a team up more than a fight? An actual goal! How about that?

I get that you don't want your team to be pushed around, and if push comes to shove, you need the guys who can stand up to the other team's bullies. But it shouldn't come at the cost of having no skills for the 95% of the time you don't need a guy like that. And in the 5% of times you do need that guy, how about have a guy with skills actually do the fighting, so he also helps generate puck possession and scoring opportunities during the rest of the game when he's not needed to fight someone?

 

[The Legend]

Lol I don't even know how you can possibly argue something like this. (Extreme example here, but relevant) Do you think people who have fought any kind of war aren't inspired, motivated and riled up when they see one of there own risking their own safety for the "team"? This (to a much lesser degree) is experienced in any contact sport.

.

I'll address your example. Wouldn't both sides in this war have that same feeling (if it exists)?

 

[BauerHOCKEY]

Imagine the bench after 2 periods of getting dominated in their own end against the Stanley cup champs on Saturday night. No words are being spoken, its silence on the bench. It is not a productive environment.

Imagine, now, if Orr goes out there and feeds someone lunch.

No question in my mind the Leafs come out with a little more fire on the very next shift.

Such is the benefit of fighting in hockey.

 

[Goonface2k14]

Tried that remember? It ended up with that ogre trying to jump our superstar.

So what? Kessel got away lol.

Honestly, you could count the number of times a goon did that to a star over the past year on one hand. There is a code there that Scott broke, everyone knows it. He did it in retaliation to Devane fighting the Sabre player (Kropp? Sorry, forget his exact name) who ended up concussed, which was stupid to begin with, because the Sabre player started that fight too. Its how teams with little skill operate (or how things go in the preseason when guys are trying to win a roster spot).

Pure goons are a waste of space IMO, but skilled guys who can fight, if need be, are priceless.

 

[Goonface2k14]

Here's former Leaf and TSN analyst Mike Johnson's opinion on fighting:

"I can only speak from personal experience: that would do absolutely nothing for me in a game. I respect that they’re fighting, respect that they’re sacrificing themselves, putting themselves in harm’s way trying to do that, but when it’s not in response to anything, when it’s not within the context or the emotion of a moment or the game, then it just leaves you feeling a little flat after they’re all done, and let’s get on with playing again.â€

Interesting....

 

[Toque*]

Here's former Leaf and TSN analyst Mike Johnson's opinion on fighting:

"I can only speak from personal experience: that would do absolutely nothing for me in a game. I respect that they’re fighting, respect that they’re sacrificing themselves, putting themselves in harm’s way trying to do that, but when it’s not in response to anything, when it’s not within the context or the emotion of a moment or the game, then it just leaves you feeling a little flat after they’re all done, and let’s get on with playing again.â€

Interesting....

Ya then right after that fight the other team scored...sooooo

 

[xyzz]

Ya then right after that fight the other team scored...sooooo

are you familiar with the term anecdotal evidence? be honest! did you have to look it up?

 

[Gavy]

you guys dont actually think players games elevate from a fight do you? ... People think its a "spark". its not. players dont suddenly gain energy watching 2 other dudes fight for 30 seconds.

That's ridiculous. I can speak from experience that it does spark players

 

[Goonface2k14]

The best example of a fight I can think of that served a purpose in firing up a team and protecting a superstar was when Wendel came to Dougie's rescue and served up a bunch of haymakers to Marty McSorley back in 1993.

That was amazing, and it came at the perfect time, from a skilled hockey player.

Those moments are so few and far between that it's ludicrous to employ a tough guy full time with no hockey skills just to fight goons on the other side.

Clarkson is adequate enough. Orr is a liability.

 

[The Legend]

That's ridiculous. I can speak from experience that it does spark players

What experience?

 

[namttebih]

Players also think that momentum exists....

I hate to do it but game 7 vs Bruins says hi.

 

[HarrisonFord]

My thoughts:

Having Orr in the lineup adds the idea that "there's a guy on our bench who is going to come after you if you do something stupid or take liberties with any of our star players". So does McLaren and Fraser. In our current lineup, we really only have Orr for that (Dion is too important to be off the ice for 5+ mins). If Orr is in the box, we don't have a deterrent on our bench that he can send out. I think he likes having that "bullet in the chamber" so to speak. I think we'll see our fight counts start to rise (quickly) once McLaren, Fraser and Clarkson enter the lineup.

 

[Duke Silver]

Here's former Leaf and TSN analyst Mike Johnson's opinion on fighting:

"I can only speak from personal experience: that would do absolutely nothing for me in a game. I respect that they’re fighting, respect that they’re sacrificing themselves, putting themselves in harm’s way trying to do that, but when it’s not in response to anything, when it’s not within the context or the emotion of a moment or the game, then it just leaves you feeling a little flat after they’re all done, and let’s get on with playing again.â€

Interesting....

He's talking about staged fighting.

 

[Muston Atthews]

My thoughts:

Having Orr in the lineup adds the idea that "there's a guy on our bench who is going to come after you if you do something stupid or take liberties with any of our star players". So does McLaren and Fraser. In our current lineup, we really only have Orr for that (Dion is too important to be off the ice for 5+ mins). If Orr is in the box, we don't have a deterrent on our bench that he can send out. I think he likes having that "bullet in the chamber" so to speak. I think we'll see our fight counts start to rise (quickly) once McLaren, Fraser and Clarkson enter the lineup.

I agree with this and the point about that Carlyle doesn't want him to get injured as we'd be soft as hell without him right now.

 

[The Iceman]

you guys dont actually think players games elevate from a fight do you? ... People think its a "spark". its not. players dont suddenly gain energy watching 2 other dudes fight for 30 seconds.

Is that you Ron Wilson?

 

[Communal Blood]

Why has Colton Orr stopped fighting? We could have used a scrap in the Blackhawks game to at least attempt to swing momentum in our favor. Other than the Parros fight I can't remember him fighting this year.

I can only think of two reasons, Injury or Carlyle has told him not to fight.

Leafs all together are softer this year. No BS attitude seems to have disappeared. Hopefully Clarkson's physical game can spark them.

He did try to fight Bollig. He has only turned down Rosehill (probably because of fighting Parros twice the night before). There are very few guys who will fight a guy like Orr.

 

[skacore]

No one on Chicago would fight Orr, that's usually the problem for his lack of fights. Bollig is Chicago's toughest guy but he's a borderline heavy and didn't want to go with Orr.

2 fights in 9 games (granted they were the same game) is pretty standard for an enforcer in 2013, especially considering only 1/2 the teams in the league carry one nowadays. The difference is that we always have Orr available if need be... like if a game gets out of hand, someone does something stupid, etc.

 

[Goonface2k14]

He's talking about staged fighting.

And if you eliminate staged fighting, you're left with the very few fights that do provide emotional energy. Like when Iginla fought Lecavalier in the Cup finals, or when Wendel Clark fought McSorley.

When a pure goon takes on another pure goon, it's almost always staged. It's Orr vs Parros types of bouts. Not an in-the-moment emotional response to a star player being bullied. It's two goons deciding to dance and help each other keep their jobs, really. The rest of the players stand up, watch, then bang their sticks on the boards when it's done. They know what's really going on. All very routine, and not very inspiring, really.

 

[Will Billiams]

I hate to do it but game 7 vs Bruins says hi.

IMO,that happened because they didn't keep the hammer down and lost the momentum due to their own actions, trying to protect the lead and then panicking when it started getting away.

After the Bruins got a couple it was easy to see who had the momentum then.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

you guys dont actually think players games elevate from a fight do you? ... People think its a "spark". its not. players dont suddenly gain energy watching 2 other dudes fight for 30 seconds.

Regardless, the outcome may have been different. The Leafs weren't playing very well and couldn't do worse if Orr dropped em

 

[Duke Silver]

And if you eliminate staged fighting, you're left with the very few fights that do provide emotional energy. Like when Iginla fought Lecavalier in the Cup finals, or when Wendel Clark fought McSorley.

When a pure goon takes on another pure goon, it's almost always staged. It's Orr vs Parros types of bouts. Not an in-the-moment emotional response to a star player being bullied. It's two goons deciding to dance and help each other keep their jobs, really. The rest of the players stand up, watch, then bang their sticks on the boards when it's done. They know what's really going on. All very routine, and not very inspiring, really.

You've clearly made up your mind on this and will twist anything to suit your agenda. Not sure why I'm bothering but...

Having a player like Orr on your team is beneficial in times when guys are taking liberties against your star players or goaltenders. Cheap players like Kaleta, Ott, Downie, Rinaldo, Neil all require a counter-measure. Having a fearsome ogre like Orr in your lineup does make them think twice, lest they get fed.

I don't think you'll get any disagreement from me about the usefulness staged fights (which you apparently seem to think comprise 95% of all fights), but fighting has its place in this game to protect a team's most valuable players. It is as much a response as it is a deterrent. Instead of denouncing fights themselves, just think about a league where players don't have to answer for their cheap tactics. That's what you're pining for.

 

[Hanta Yo]

I don't think he's holding back, I just think he hasn't been able to find a dance partner.

 

[The Legend]

I hate to do it but game 7 vs Bruins says hi.

Yes - because a screened shot from the point really shows that momentum exists.

How soon we forget that the Leafs had a breakaway with 3 minutes left in that game - I guess momentum stopped working during that time?

We were flat out dominated 5 on 6 that whole series. Call it "nerves" or whatever you want - the last 90 seconds of Game 7 was overdue from Games 5 and 6.

And that's the last I'll talk about "that game" for the next 20 years.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

How do we determine whether or not a player has "fed" off the electricity?

Because they've said like 5689328962936290 different ****ing times in 628689346894673489678934689 different interviews that they do. Why do people continue to try to dispute this?

 

[Ari91]

Here's former Leaf and TSN analyst Mike Johnson's opinion on fighting:

"I can only speak from personal experience: that would do absolutely nothing for me in a game. I respect that they’re fighting, respect that they’re sacrificing themselves, putting themselves in harm’s way trying to do that, but when it’s not in response to anything, when it’s not within the context or the emotion of a moment or the game, then it just leaves you feeling a little flat after they’re all done, and let’s get on with playing again.”

Interesting....

Not that interesting. Players can get an adrenaline rush for a variety of reasons. A fight doesn't always pump up the team, but neither does scoring a goal (as you previously mentioned). If that were such a sure way of providing adrenaline then I wouldn't have witnessed so many games where goals were exchanged in just a few minutes apart from one another. If you try to look at this as a science and disregard the power of perception, then your argument will be flawed no matter how hard you try to argue. If you try to look at this as 2 evidence against fighting holds more weight than 2 evidence for fighting, your argument will be flawed no matter how hard you try to argue.

People try to dismiss the idea of momentum, benefits of fightings, etc. The world exists beyond numbers and formulas. If people don't think such things are real, then they should do some hard research on the placebo effect. Sometimes results are influenced/aided by intangible belief. It doesn't matter if any of us believe such things make a difference, if one, many or all players 'believe' that it can, then chances are it will. Not to get too philosophical but it's our perceptions that shape our realities. It's okay to say that fighting doesn't work for everyone, but to say that it doesn't work at all...anecdotal evidence would suggest that that simply isn't true.