The COVID 19 Thread (Part II - READ MOD WARNING IN OP)

[Aphid Attraction]

Outside of a tiny percentage of left wing extremists, the left in the USA is basically advocating for economic policies similar to those that already exist in most other wealthy western nations.

If what they want is to be moderate and reasonable they need to pick a better way of showing it.

 

[RandV]

This is the point, labeling everyone right of center as a Nazi and everyone left as pure, that very one-eyed at best.

That's not what actually happens though. First you have to understand that there are a lot more political stance than two sides, but because the US only has two real political parties so everyone gets shuffled into one tent or the other. So on this topic for the key distinction of Democrart/left vs Republican/right you have to look at who actually holds the votes and the power to guide the party.

Sure you can dig through twitter and find some batshit crazy pink haired femnazi saying we should cull all males, but how much impact do they actually have? Practically zero. From a global perspective the Democrat party is a center-right party. They have NDP types in the party like Bernie Sanders but while he gets a passionate following they're not actually reliable voters so he has little impact on actual party direction and in his Presidential aspirations he's only ever a very distant but stubborn runner up (possible he wouldn't even be #2 if he didn't stick it out in the primaries till the bitter end). So you end up with a very reasonable status-quo candidate in Joe Biden.

Now on the other hand of the spectrum, through the Tea Party/Birthism/Trump the US right politicians have embraced the crazy train. Reasonable conservatives like John McCain or boring ones like Mitt Romney are pushed aside & ridiculed and the inmates are now running the asylum.

That's a very high level reason why "both sides" aren't anywhere near the same. Beyond that there's a bunch of other ways you can drill down into the details but lets not go there.

 

[Lupuls Grit]

Obviously not everyone right of center is a Nazi. Canadian conservatives are (for the most part) not fascist Nazis, although Maxime Bernier's supporters definitely trend in that direction.

However, there are literal KKK rallies in the states and a disturbing percentage of alt-right nutjobs that their president panders to and has called 'very good people'. And that alt-right, verging-on-Nazi platform is largely running the Republican Party. Oh, and then you have the Qanon conspiracy crowd who is even more batshit than the KKK types, although they merge over in large part.

There is no equivalent to this on the left, in any real number having any real impact on news or policy. The 'left' in the US is in line with most governments in Northern Europe or the Canadian NDP. They aren't fringe or dangerous in their beliefs at all, unless you're a billionaire.

I'm not sure why it's suddenly ok to talk politics in this forum. But, if you want to talk about politics, perhaps you need to get your damn facts straight. I challenge you to go to the PPC website and tell me which of its policies are "Nazi" or even far right. Every political party has idiots. The PPC certainly has its share. But the idea that Bernier supporters lean in that direction is complete b.s. and misinformation promoted by Warren Kinsella, whose agency was paid to promote that message. Again though, why are we talking about politics on a hockey board? I come here to get away from that crap.

 

[RobertKron]

If what they want is to be moderate and reasonable they need to pick a better way of showing it.

What, specifically, are the ways of showing it that you take issue with?

 

[tradervik]

Now my brain really hurts.

 

[RobertKron]

I'm not sure why it's suddenly ok to talk politics in this forum. But, if you want to talk about politics, perhaps you need to get your damn facts straight. I challenge you to go to the PPC website and tell me which of its policies are "Nazi" or even far right. Every political party has idiots. The PPC certainly has its share. But the idea that Bernier supporters lean in that direction is complete b.s. and misinformation promoted by Warren Kinsella, whose agency was paid to promote that message. Again though, why are we talking about politics on a hockey board? I come here to get away from that crap.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/essex-ppc-capes-racist-tweets-1.5296678

PPC ousts candidate who asks Bernier to denounce racism in ranks - NEWS 1130

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/ppc-candidate-sarnia-racist-tweets-bernier-1.5302918

Maxime Bernier says N.S. PPC candidate’s tweets were racist but she won’t face consequences

Winnipeg North PPC candidate ends run for 'racist, intolerant' party

 

[xtra]

Oh that of course. In general taxes are quite high in Norway but other Scandinavian countries too to compensate for the social welfare. However, salaries are also quite high to balance that. In the end its a win-win situation, except for the high alcohol taxes.

That’s when we start making HF moonshine....drink until bennings moves make sense

 

[xtra]

I'm not sure why it's suddenly ok to talk politics in this forum. But, if you want to talk about politics, perhaps you need to get your damn facts straight. I challenge you to go to the PPC website and tell me which of its policies are "Nazi" or even far right. Every political party has idiots. The PPC certainly has its share. But the idea that Bernier supporters lean in that direction is complete b.s. and misinformation promoted by Warren Kinsella, whose agency was paid to promote that message. Again though, why are we talking about politics on a hockey board? I come here to get away from that crap.

is this fully nazi...no but eliminating multiculturalism is pretty stupid and trending that way...
Canadian Identity: Ending Official Multiculturalism and Preserving Canadian Values and Culture

having people represent your party that are
Neo-nazi, soldiers of Odin and peigda Canada in your leadership ranks or a founding member of your party is More nazi like

Former neo-Nazi, Pegida Canada official among People’s Party of Canada signatories

or when you kick out people that want you to denounce white nationalism

PPC ousts candidate who asks Bernier to denounce racism in ranks


Seems like that shoe fits the ppc

 

[MS]

I'm not sure why it's suddenly ok to talk politics in this forum. But, if you want to talk about politics, perhaps you need to get your damn facts straight. I challenge you to go to the PPC website and tell me which of its policies are "Nazi" or even far right. Every political party has idiots. The PPC certainly has its share. But the idea that Bernier supporters lean in that direction is complete b.s. and misinformation promoted by Warren Kinsella, whose agency was paid to promote that message. Again though, why are we talking about politics on a hockey board? I come here to get away from that crap.

Uh, examples given by a poster above.

When a candidate in the last election asked the party to clarify their stance on racism and that they weren’t a front for hate groups ... they kicked him out of the party.

That party is basically a front for racists and neo-Nazis. They’re a stain on Canada and everything Canada stands for.

 

[vancityluongo]

ms please stop i already agree with everything you say regarding hockey it's weird if you also have great political takes

 

[vancityluongo]

Most of it is that if people are Republicans they watch Fox News (or worse) and that’s it. If Democrats they watch and read things they agree with (though by and large the left wing isn’t as bad as a whole). It’s confirmation bias and human nature no matter how smart you are. There is very little tv news anymore that isn’t opinion based and the education level as a whole is that people can’t tell responsible journalism from opinion anymore.

Yeah.

So much of the problem in the US seems to stem from being in an absolute bubble where not only is there misinformation about everything in their country, but there is basically no regard for anything outside their country.

Hence, a huge chunk of their population acts as if their way of "American exceptionalism" is the only way. I imagine it's like being a Canucks fan who only listens to the Larschcast and Walker...

A major non-US media network being broadcast globally would go such a long way. A huge part of the problem is that even on a hockey forum, we as Canadians (for the most part) are discussing this shit because we are fed so much of their "news" and there is no way of escaping it.

 

[RussianRacket]

American news media is so beholden to the web of corporate owners, advertisers, politicians, and lobbyists that it is difficult to trust anything coming from FOX News, CNN, MSNBC, etc. Manufactured consent. Even take like the Washington Post, completely slanted coverage regarding worker's rights or corporate power. IT'S OWNED BY JEFF BEZOS.

IMO the best news and analysis of the United States actually comes from outside. The CBC, BBC, Guardian, Al-Jazeera, etc. Less dependent on the American monetary cesspool that diseases media within the US.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

What, specifically, are the ways of showing it that you take issue with?

The use of condescending sarcasm and name-calling, and the use of "whip words". And what appears to be an inability to try and see things for other points of view and give credit to validity to ideas that don't come from the team they have chosen to put their identity in and in some cases an inability to acknowledge that some problems even exist. And whatever the MSM is trying to do. Both sides.

 

[RobertKron]

The use of condescending sarcasm and name-calling, and the use of "whip words". And what appears to be an inability to try and see things for other points of view and give credit to validity to ideas that don't come from the team they have chosen to put their identity in and in some cases an inability to acknowledge that some problems even exist. And whatever the MSM is trying to do. Both sides.

Specific examples.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

That's not what actually happens though. First you have to understand that there are a lot more political stance than two sides, but because the US only has two real political parties so everyone gets shuffled into one tent or the other. So on this topic for the key distinction of Democrart/left vs Republican/right you have to look at who actually holds the votes and the power to guide the party.

Sure you can dig through twitter and find some batshit crazy pink haired femnazi saying we should cull all males, but how much impact do they actually have? Practically zero. From a global perspective the Democrat party is a center-right party. They have NDP types in the party like Bernie Sanders but while he gets a passionate following they're not actually reliable voters so he has little impact on actual party direction and in his Presidential aspirations he's only ever a very distant but stubborn runner up (possible he wouldn't even be #2 if he didn't stick it out in the primaries till the bitter end). So you end up with a very reasonable status-quo candidate in Joe Biden.

Now on the other hand of the spectrum, through the Tea Party/Birthism/Trump the US right politicians have embraced the crazy train. Reasonable conservatives like John McCain or boring ones like Mitt Romney are pushed aside & ridiculed and the inmates are now running the asylum.

That's a very high level reason why "both sides" aren't anywhere near the same. Beyond that there's a bunch of other ways you can drill down into the details but lets not go there.

It literally did happen, straight away in fact, after I dared to say that the left is just as bad as the right.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

Specific examples.

Watch any of the MSM or go to any outlet where people shear political opinions.

like this one time I said that the left is as bad as the right and then MS said no the left is moderate and the right are literally Nazis.

 

[RobertKron]

Watch any of the MSM or go to any outlet where people shear political opinions.

like this one time I said that the left is as bad as the right and then MS said no the left is moderate and the right are literally Nazis.

So you don’t have any specific examples, then?

 

[RussianRacket]

Okay let me get through some definitions here. Let us consider the American "left" to be an amalgamation of anyone left of the Republican party and its voters. This includes DNC and those further to the left. This is not a monolithic entity so its foolish to just put it under the big tent of "the left" (which is what the DNC tries to do, and why the DNC loses elections).

There is definitely a gulf in morality between this amalgamated "left" and the Republican Party. It's basically indisputable. If you are a right winger or a left winger, you acknowledge that there is a morality gap where the two sides find it difficult if not impossible to come together.

HOWEVER, the center of the "left", or what we would identify as the DNC, is directly complicit in the overall slide rightward in American politics and the seemingly off the deep end route the GOP has gone. The DNC creeping right with every concession and negotiation it makes with the Republicans, and in the process is alienating its progressive actually left base.

So in conclusion, no the "left" is not the same type of bad as the right. The DNC is not the same type of bad as the GOP. But the DNC is complicit if not supportive in the exploitation of working class Americans, the increase of wealth disparity, and the dominance of neo-liberalism. It is perfectly reasonable to argue that leftists should not support a party like the DNC, and those who seek actual change in the American system should not lower themselves to voting for the DNC.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

So you don’t have any specific examples, then?

Well apart from the one in this thread that I showed...

Are you trying to prove that there are no examples of

"The use of condescending sarcasm and name-calling, and the use of "whip words". And what appears to be an inability to try and see things for other points of view and give credit to validity to ideas that don't come from the team they have chosen to put their identity in and in some cases an inability to acknowledge that some problems even exist. And whatever the MSM is trying to do. Both sides."

By being condescending? bold strategy

Just look up any political meme. or go to any thread or news article and read the comments section.

 

[RobertKron]

Okay let me get through some definitions here. Let us consider the American "left" to me an amalgamation of anyone left of the Republican party and its voters. This includes DNC and those further to the left. This is not a monolithic entity so its foolish to just put it under the big tent of "the left" (which is what the DNC tries to do, and why the DNC loses elections).

There is definitely a gulf in morality between this amalgamated "left" and the Republican Party. It's basically indisputable. If you are a right winger or a left winger, you acknowledge that there is a moralitt gap where the two sides find it difficult if not impossible to come together.

HOWEVER, the center of the "left", or what we would identify as the DNC, is directly complicit in the overall slide rightward in American politics and the seemingly off the deep end route the GOP has gone. The DNC creeping right with every concession and negotiation it makes with the Republicans, and in the process is alienating its progressive actually left base.

So in conclusion, no the "left" is not the same type of bad as the right. The DNC is not the same type of bad as the GOP. But the DNC is complicit if not supportive in the exploitation of working class Americans, the increase of wealth disparity, and the dominance of neo-liberalism.

There’s this weird desire to equate the, let’s call them The Tea Party branch of the american right with the, I dunno, radical Tumblr crowd, on the left.

This is bizarre as hell since the republicans have run Palin for VP and Donald Trump is currently the goddamn president, with probably damn near 90+% approval among republicans. Meanwhile, the dems are running Joe Biden - the most moderate left candidate you could imagine.

Like, if Trumpism is supposed to be some kind of fringe element of the political right, the rest of y’all might want to wake the f*** up and push it back to the fringes. Until that happens, I can’t really take anyone seriously if they’re claiming that Trump and his crowd aren’t representative of mainstream right wing ideology at this moment in time.

 

[RobertKron]

Well apart from the one in this thread that I showed...

Are you trying to prove that there are no examples of

"The use of condescending sarcasm and name-calling, and the use of "whip words". And what appears to be an inability to try and see things for other points of view and give credit to validity to ideas that don't come from the team they have chosen to put their identity in and in some cases an inability to acknowledge that some problems even exist. And whatever the MSM is trying to do. Both sides."

By being condescending? bold strategy

Just look up any political meme. or go to any thread or news article and read the comments section.

You’ve made the claim, so it is up to you to support it.

So far you are raising hfboards poster MS saying a thing in a thread as equivalently representative of the left side of the political spectrum as the on-record words and actions of the President of the USA are of the right.

 

[VanJack]

American news media is so beholden to the web of corporate owners, advertisers, politicians, and lobbyists that it is difficult to trust anything coming from FOX News, CNN, MSNBC, etc. Manufactured consent. Even take like the Washington Post, completely slanted coverage regarding worker's rights or corporate power. IT'S OWNED BY JEFF BEZOS.

IMO the best news and analysis of the United States actually comes from outside. The CBC, BBC, Guardian, Al-Jazeera, etc. Less dependent on the American monetary cesspool that diseases media within the US.

Try the PBS Newshour and Frontline....two premier programs on KCTS out of Seattle. Yes, they really do have a public broadcasting network in the U.S. It gets a few breadcrumbs from the GOP dominated Congress, and the rest comes from "viewers like you'. Balanced and fair coverage, as if anyone from Trump-land is really listening.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

You’ve made the claim, so it is up to you to support it.

I have stated an opinion as a New Zealander on a hockey foram for a team based in Canada about what I think about the American political landscape, I hardly think that sighting articles and pulling up tweets is needed, It's not a university paper. and it's not of any importance.

 

[RobertKron]

I have stated an opinion as a New Zealander on a hockey foram for a team based in Canada about what I think about the American political landscape, I hardly think that sighting articles and pulling up tweets is needed, It's not a university paper. and it's not of any importance.

so you don’t have any specific examples.

 

[RussianRacket]

Like, if Trumpism is supposed to be some kind of fringe element of the political right, the rest of y’all might want to wake the f*** up and push it back to the fringes. Until that happens, I can’t really take anyone seriously if they’re claiming that Trump and his crowd aren’t representative of mainstream right wing ideology at this moment in time.

Well, I think it is possible to separate Trumpism from Conservatism. Trumpism is some kind of... tough to describe authoritarian republicanism (small r, not the party), propaganda driven, almost neo-Bonapartism. I can imagine many Republican voters identify with the party purely on what they would consider black and white morality stances on say, abortion, gun rights, or religious rights. While they don't agree with this neo-Bonapartism they kind of just got swept up with the general tornado that the GOP became over the summer of 2016, and the GOP of course eventually conceded to this Trumpian Neo-Bonapartism.

I think there has been movements along the same vein of, let's call it, "flirting" with authoritarianism before. Roosevelt became nearly a quasi-dictator. Huey Long was a thorough leftist but had authoritarian tendencies. Long is the kind of politician I would also identify with in a black and white sense when it came to worker's rights and union power and the welfare state. Both these men existed in the global age of totalitarianism, which is seeing an echo of sorts world wide. Trump didn't happen in the American vacuum, I suppose.