The Brodeur/Roy/Hasek debate

[Sinter Klaas]

A team accomplishment

It's funny. Every year that Hasek lead the NHL in Save Percentage in the 1990's, he rarely lead the league in GAA, something Marty was accustomed to doing (Hasek did in 1993-1994 becoming the first goalie in 20 years to have a sub GAA of 2.00). When GAA was brought up, Sabre fans would smarm and say that GAA was a team accomplishment while Save Percentage was more of an individual stat, and the # of shots that Dom inevitably faced was always more than Marty, in hopes of diminishing Marty's accomplishments. Devils fans would counter with the argument that it was tougher to stop shots when seeing less than 20 in a game because of long periods of inactivity, and many Sabre fans wouldn't buy it.

Now we are seeing the roles reversed a bit, in where Dom is on a puck possession team that yields fewer shots per game. Dom is proving right now that he is a strong goaltender, whether or not he is facing copious amounts of rubber or not (not that few doubted it).

 

[Maag80]

I want to be polite, as a European, but as can be seen from this debate, the discussion is that Roy or Brodeur has been better than Hasek, a completely North American point of view.
That is, Hasek would have been Canadian e.g. so he had been considered the best of the three.

 

[Peter Tosh]

Three great goalies, but I consider Hasek the greatest goalie to ever play the game. If Team Earth was to face an intergalactic all star team, prime Hasek would be my choice to mind Earth's net, much because Hasek looked like he was from another planet from time to time

 

[jigglysquishy]

I want to be polite, as a European, but as can be seen from this debate, the discussion is that Roy or Brodeur has been better than Hasek, a completely North American point of view.
That is, Hasek would have been Canadian e.g. so he had been considered the best of the three.

You bumped a 14 year old thread to insult people? Half of which don't post here anymore and some who have passed away?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I want to be polite, as a European, but as can be seen from this debate, the discussion is that Roy or Brodeur has been better than Hasek, a completely North American point of view.
That is, Hasek would have been Canadian e.g. so he had been considered the best of the three.

There are many North American hockey fans (myself included) that consider Hasek the best.

Many that also feel Brodeur doesn't belong in the conversation.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Maybe if Hasek was Canadian he would be the unanimous number 1. Not because of nationalism or anything, but because he would have gotten adjusted to the NA game quicker. Same argument goes if he jumps to NA 5 years earlier.

He didn't become an NHL starter until 93-94, the season he turned 29. By that time Roy was entering his 9th season as a starter. He had 3 Vezina trophies and 2 Conn Smythes.

Maybe if he starts earlier he is the consensus number 1. Maybe if he wins the Cup and Smythe with the Sabres in 99 or the Sens in 06 he is. I mean, I have him at 1, but it's not a Canadian bias that is keeping him out.

 

[dr robbie]

1) Roy and 2) Hasek, but I acknowledge that I place more emphasis on playoffs/success and that tips the scales for me.

Brodeur isn't in the top 3.

 

[bobholly39]

Maybe if Hasek was Canadian he would be the unanimous number 1. Not because of nationalism or anything, but because he would have gotten adjusted to the NA game quicker. Same argument goes if he jumps to NA 5 years earlier.

He didn't become an NHL starter until 93-94, the season he turned 29. By that time Roy was entering his 9th season as a starter. He had 3 Vezina trophies and 2 Conn Smythes.

Maybe if he starts earlier he is the consensus number 1. Maybe if he wins the Cup and Smythe with the Sabres in 99 or the Sens in 06 he is. I mean, I have him at 1, but it's not a Canadian bias that is keeping him out.

Yeah exactly, well said. Hasek only becoming a #1 goalie at age 29 is the biggest thing holding him back vs Roy (and that's only for those who consider Roy ahead, many have Hasek ahead anyways).

One caveat of course - if Hasek was Canadian, or mostly if he started as NHL starter earlier and found success early, maybe it affects his longevity somehow and evens out in the end (or worst, hurts him). You can never really say for sure with such hypotheticals.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I want to be polite, as a European, but as can be seen from this debate, the discussion is that Roy or Brodeur has been better than Hasek, a completely North American point of view.
That is, Hasek would have been Canadian e.g. so he had been considered the best of the three.

This is literally your most recent post prior to today:

Yes, North American fans are more likely to choose Roy over Hasek in this debate, and Europeans are more likely to choose Hasek.

However, many North Americans do have Hasek ahead of Roy, so it's ironic that you (a European) boil this down into a "folks are only choosing Roy because they are North American" without any supporting evidence on your part for why Hasek is the correct answer.

So, since you bumped a very old thread to get our attention, keep our attention. What's your support for Hasek?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yeah exactly, well said. Hasek only becoming a #1 goalie at age 29 is the biggest thing holding him back vs Roy (and that's only for those who consider Roy ahead, many have Hasek ahead anyways).

One caveat of course - if Hasek was Canadian, or mostly if he started as NHL starter earlier and found success early, maybe it affects his longevity somehow and evens out in the end (or worst, hurts him). You can never really say for sure with such hypotheticals.

that's the question i always have with hasek. his style seems like it would shred his groin and there were only so many years of elite play in him. but otoh, many accounts say he was a physical freak in terms of flexibility.

so maybe a conservative estimate is, imagine hasek comes in when roy does. '80s workloads probably help him, vs a late '90s workhorse workload, but he's still playing against better competition than he did in czechoslovakia in the '80s, with tougher travel, and he's playing behind less structured defences than he later would in the NHL so i'm assuming that puts at least a bit of a larger strain on his body.

even given his physical gifts, do we see him falling off from a little and easing from peak to prime around '95 like roy did? does that take some of the statistical shine away from him if his peak is in the high scoring late '80s/early '90s, vs the late '90s?

 

[David Bruce Banner]

You couldn't have made a new thread for this?

Anyway, plenty of North Americans believe Hasek to be the GOAT. But it's in no way a cut and dried argument... Roy's career totals were nothing to sneeze at either. Brodeur was definitely a cut below them, which is really no slight on him either.

 

[seventieslord]

This is why Roy is the GOAT. He was simply at another level at stopping pucks in the playoffs. His regular season prime tends to be highly underrated, but it's top-5 all-time as well, and I don't know if anyone was so consistently good for 16 straight seasons, but if playoffs never existed, sure, there would be a case for Hasek and his 6 vezinas, 2 harts and cartoonish regular season save percentages.

But for whatever reason - and there has to be reasons, because over this many games in this many situations, it cannot be just noise - Roy repeatedly succeeded in the playoffs, while Hasek's record was a mixed bag.

Take a look at all of the 30 playoff GP leaders of all-time, minus the ones who played before sv% (Sawchuk, Broda). This is their total GSAA in their best 7 playoff runs, as well as total GP in those runs.

Goalie	GP	GSAA	GSAA/GP
Plante	66	52	0.79
Roy	132	85.8	0.65
Joseph	65	36.2	0.56
Smith	108	59.4	0.55
Esposito	55	28.3	0.51
Brodeur	106	51.8	0.48
Belfour	104	49.7	0.48
Dryden	106	45.5	0.43
Hasek	100	41.5	0.41
Barrasso	85	28.8	0.34
Rask	93	31.7	0.34
Holtby	84	27.8	0.33
Cheevers	52	16.3	0.31
Lundqvist	101	29.5	0.29
Fuhr	94	27.3	0.29
MAF	96	22.9	0.24
Luongo	81	18.8	0.23
Moog	82	19.1	0.23
Hall	75	15	0.2
Price	73	14.6	0.2
Osgood	92	15.7	0.17
Quick	85	13.6	0.16
Vernon	98	11.7	0.12
Hextall	89	7.6	0.09
Hrudey	73	5.8	0.08
Crawford	89	2.9	0.03
Rinne	75	-2.2	-0.03
Nabokov	78	-6.3	-0.08

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

First of all, Roy has over twice as many playoff GSAA as nearly anyone on the list. Did he play more games? Sure he did. Because he played so well that he continually advanced further in the playoffs. And his per-game number is still higher than everyone else, except Plante, who's also a top-3 goalie of all-time, and who played exactly half as many games in this sample.

Hasek, on the other hand, looks pretty ordinary by this measure. He doesn't stand out compared to Brodeur, Belfour, Dryden, fair enough, all-time greats themselves - but also Esposito, Barrasso, Rask and Holtby find themselves around him.

Luongo looks pretty decent there too. Good to see. Actually, just kidding. Luongo didn't have enough playoff games or playoff runs to qualify for this list. That is actually Roy's 2nd-best career: his 8th-14th best playoff runs. Yes, that's right, outside of his best 7 playoffs, Roy had a playoff career pretty similar to MAF, Andy Moog, Glenn Hall and Carey Price.

side note - Rask and Holtby are frequently celebrated by the likes of THN for their high "career playoff save percentages" but it shouldn't surprise anyone that taken in context and compared to historical goalies, they look merely good, not all-time great.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Do we have that adjusted regular season GAA/S% list? By bookmark link is dead with the data transfer.

 

[buffalowing88]

You bumped a 14 year old thread to insult people? Half of which don't post here anymore and some who have passed away?

I mean, it's a history of hockey forum and there really aren't that many. No reason a person can't bump a thread if they have an opinion on it. Next time should he wait until someone else posts so that it's more appropriate?

That said, I don't know what the latest OP's point really is. Hasek has gotten his flowers and more from this board. I was a middle-schooler in Buffalo when he was dragging that team to the Cup and ECF and I could be as guilty as anyone for bias.

But Hasek, as you pointed out, didn't start really playing regularly until he was pushing 30. He also just does not have the resume of Roy. It's a two-horse race and Brodeur isn't in shouting distance of either.

That said, I'd take Roy. Better big game player and for goalies that's the most important quality one can have.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I mean, it's a history of hockey forum and there really aren't that many. No reason a person can't bump a thread if they have an opinion on it. Next time should he wait until someone else posts so that it's more appropriate?

He did say "...to insult people", which I think is a reasonably accurate characterization.

And there are actually quite a few Hasek/Roy/Brodeur threads.

 

[LightningStorm]

I (as an American, FWIW) consider Hasek the GOAT goalie, while Roy is just below him and top 5. Brodeur isn't on their level though. Heck, of their contemporaries, I thought Belfour was better than Brodeur. Speaking of Belfour, Hasek likely starts earlier if Belfour wasn't the goalie in front of him in Chicago.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

that's the question i always have with hasek. his style seems like it would shred his groin and there were only so many years of elite play in him. but otoh, many accounts say he was a physical freak in terms of flexibility.

so maybe a conservative estimate is, imagine hasek comes in when roy does. '80s workloads probably help him, vs a late '90s workhorse workload, but he's still playing against better competition than he did in czechoslovakia in the '80s, with tougher travel, and he's playing behind less structured defences than he later would in the NHL so i'm assuming that puts at least a bit of a larger strain on his body.

even given his physical gifts, do we see him falling off from a little and easing from peak to prime around '95 like roy did? does that take some of the statistical shine away from him if his peak is in the high scoring late '80s/early '90s, vs the late '90s?

Wow, quiet the stretch of the What If argument.

 

[Overrated]

I mean, it's a history of hockey forum and there really aren't that many. No reason a person can't bump a thread if they have an opinion on it. Next time should he wait until someone else posts so that it's more appropriate?

That said, I don't know what the latest OP's point really is. Hasek has gotten his flowers and more from this board. I was a middle-schooler in Buffalo when he was dragging that team to the Cup and ECF and I could be as guilty as anyone for bias.

But Hasek, as you pointed out, didn't start really playing regularly until he was pushing 30. He also just does not have the resume of Roy. It's a two-horse race and Brodeur isn't in shouting distance of either.

That said, I'd take Roy. Better big game player and for goalies that's the most important quality one can have.

He had an impressive resume back in Europe and international tournaments. I mean if that doesn't count then why count anything Tretiak has ever done?

 

[Albatros]

Maybe if Hasek was Canadian he would be the unanimous number 1. Not because of nationalism or anything, but because he would have gotten adjusted to the NA game quicker. Same argument goes if he jumps to NA 5 years earlier.

He didn't become an NHL starter until 93-94, the season he turned 29. By that time Roy was entering his 9th season as a starter. He had 3 Vezina trophies and 2 Conn Smythes.

Maybe if he starts earlier he is the consensus number 1. Maybe if he wins the Cup and Smythe with the Sabres in 99 or the Sens in 06 he is. I mean, I have him at 1, but it's not a Canadian bias that is keeping him out.

It's mostly Canadians though that don't give him any credit for his accomplishments in Europe.

 

[buffalowing88]

He had an impressive resume back in Europe and international tournaments. I mean if that doesn't count then why count anything Tretiak has ever done?

Fair point.

I honestly didn't consider that and haven't given much weight to that and it's probably a NA bias on my part. I'm aware of his accolades before but it's not enough to knock Roy off for me personally. But certainly a good point.

 

[Forceofnature]

As always in this debate you see the "I place more emphasis on playoff success" argument while completely disregarding the fact that both Roy and Brodeur played on stacked teams while Hasek played on a shitty buffalo team where the only bright light apart from Hasek was Satan.

I would absolutely love to see Roy get two Smythes playing with buffalo.
Would hot head Roy even muster up a vezina playing on a dumpster fire team or would he's frustration get the best of him?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

As always in this debate you see the "I place more emphasis on playoff success" argument while completely disregarding the fact that both Roy and Brodeur played on stacked teams while Hasek played on a shitty buffalo team where the only bright light apart from Hasek was Satan.

I would absolutely love to see Roy get two Smythes playing with buffalo.
Would hot head Roy even muster up a vezina playing on a dumpster fire team or would he's frustration get the best of him?

Good post, but I object to Satan being referred to as a bright light.

 

[Overrated]

As always in this debate you see the "I place more emphasis on playoff success" argument while completely disregarding the fact that both Roy and Brodeur played on stacked teams while Hasek played on a shitty buffalo team where the only bright light apart from Hasek was Satan.

I would absolutely love to see Roy get two Smythes playing with buffalo.
Would hot head Roy even muster up a vezina playing on a dumpster fire team or would he's frustration get the best of him?

Also note that it's only when it's the Roy vs Hasek debate. Play off results get rarely mentioned with other players. Interestingly Hasek has a better sv% than Roy in the play offs too so the only thing the Roy side has are the Conn Smythe awards.

 

[Theokritos]

Good post, but I object to Satan being referred to as a bright light.

Considering his name in Hebrew and Latin refers to shining, brightness and light (lat. "Lucifer" is literally the "light-bringer"), your objection has to be dismissed.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Also note that it's only when it's the Roy vs Hasek debate. Play off results get rarely mentioned with other players. Interestingly Hasek has a better sv% than Roy in the play offs too so the only thing the Roy side has are the Conn Smythe awards.

Not true at all.