The Brodeur/Roy/Hasek debate

[82Ninety42011]

Hasek by a mile for me though Roy loved the stage and was his best on it. However Hasek had the worst teams in front of him during his career while Brodeur had the best defensive teams. You put all three with the same team and I don't think many would argue who was the best to worst. Hasek, Roy and Brodeur.

 

[vikash1987]

i was curious about how era informs this, so i split the numbers from '94 and after, and '86-'93. very crude and inexact, but here's what came out:

1. possibility to eliminate

hasek .936 (fell .001)
brodeur .926
roy 882/936 = .942

(roy's numbers pre-'94 are: 585/634 = .923)

2. facing elimination

hasek .934 (rose .005)
brodeur .919
roy 365/396 = .922

(roy's numbers pre-'94: 250/268 = .932)


i'm not sure what this tells us, really. but some observations:

- if you take away that 2002 game 7 against detroit, roy's post-'93 facing elimination SV% rises to .934, same as hasek's, so point taken about small samples and single events skewing things majorly

- re: single events and small samples again, look how subtracting one '93 playoff loss raises hasek's facing elimination SV% .005

- roy's '86-'93 SV% facing elimination is absolutely bonkers. this, of course, is where he makes his bones as the greatest playoff goalie of all time.

- taking away '86-'93, which again is all by itself more than a hall of fame playoff career, and roy's possibility to eliminate SV% rises to godly

Indeed, it helps to adjust for era, and to segment the way you did. Based just on these stats alone, I honestly don't think we can make much of a case that one goaltender was a significantly better performer/puckstopper in these elimination games. It's a more nuanced story--and it does matter to me that Brodeur and Roy were in more of these situations over a longer time horizon than Hasek. But the stats are, in and of themselves, interesting.

Depends on how you look at it. Being great when facing elimination is great, but it also means you've gotten to the point of facing elimination (i.e., you've probably lost three games already). Better to not get there!

Possibility-to-eliminate save percentage is also great, of course, but most goalies already with the upper hand will come through, assuming your team is even or stronger with the opponent.

I dunno, to me, it's about what the goalie does with what you've got in front of you. If we're talking about Brodeur, Roy, and Hasek, there's no doubt in my mind that Hasek had the least in front of him, and there's also no doubt in my mind that Hasek had the most individual domination of the three during his six or seven peak years.

So, if you had the least help and the most domination, you're probably the best.

It's a legitimate point. For example, Roy played a ton of Game 7's, but many of those series should've been closed out by him much earlier. I'm reminded of the two LA series in 2001 and 2002, in which the Avs led 3-1.

That said, the broader point is that all three goalies had a reputation of playing their greatest games in the biggest games of the playoffs, when their teams were on the brink and with the season on the line.

Your last comment sounds logical---i.e., Hasek was "probably the best" because he stood on his head with the least amount of help and he put up astronomical numbers that blew away the competition.

For what it's worth, John Davidson and Johnny Bower were asked to chime in on this debate over 20 years ago, and they evaluated these goalies using a framework of five criteria/categories. I'm sure their rankings wouldn't be exactly the same today, but this is how they netted out:

1) Glove hand: Brodeur > Hasek = Roy
2) Mental toughness: Roy > Hasek > Brodeur
3) Positioning/technique: Brodeur > Hasek > Roy
4) Rebound handling/control: Roy = Brodeur > Hasek
5) Puckhandling: Brodeur > Roy > Hasek

OVERALL: Brodeur > Roy > Hasek

 

[Sadekuuro]

Hasek wasn't the best at anything? That doesn't jibe with what I saw.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

For what it's worth, John Davidson and Johnny Bower were asked to chime in on this debate over 20 years ago, and they evaluated these goalies using a framework of five criteria/categories. I'm sure their rankings wouldn't be exactly the same today, but this is how they netted out:

1) Glove hand: Brodeur > Hasek = Roy
2) Mental toughness: Roy > Hasek > Brodeur
3) Positioning/technique: Brodeur > Hasek > Roy
4) Rebound handling/control: Roy = Brodeur > Hasek
5) Puckhandling: Brodeur > Roy > Hasek

OVERALL: Brodeur > Roy > Hasek

Citation would be helpful.

 

[GuineaPig]

I think that one can't break down goaltending into discrete components so simply. Have to be a bit more holistic about things. So sure, you can do this:

1) Glove hand: Brodeur > Hasek = Roy
2) Mental toughness: Roy > Hasek > Brodeur
3) Positioning/technique: Brodeur > Hasek > Roy
4) Rebound handling/control: Roy = Brodeur > Hasek
5) Puckhandling: Brodeur > Roy > Hasek

OVERALL: Brodeur > Roy > Hasek

But yet somehow when it comes to actually stopping the puck, we know it goes Hasek>=Roy>Brodeur.

 

[vikash1987]

Citation would be helpful.

See attached. Again, not meant to be taken as anything scientific---simply one (of many) evaluations done on the subject by the "professional" community over the years.

 

[Brodeur]

I've managed to stay out of this thread for fifteen years, but just dropping my two cents:

- If we're defining goaltending simply to stopping the puck, I'd consider Hasek/Roy better than Marty.

- It's tough to quantify how much Brodeur's puckhandling affected the game. One thing I'd point to is how the Devils were traditionally one of the least penalized teams in the league during his tenure. Fewer penalties to kill will mean fewer goals allowed which will lead to more wins. As the Devils had some subpar defense units post-lockout after losing Stevens/Niedermayer. But they still ranked towards the bottom of teams who were penalized. It seems a little too simplistic to solely attribute it to some "system" as a way to diminish Brodeur's puckhandling skill. Devils defenders often commented how it made their lives easier when Brodeur could diffuse a dump and chase. They took fewer hits chasing down pucks and took fewer defensive zone penalties not fighting with forecheckers on puck retrievals.

1992-93: ranked 18th out of 24 teams (aka 6th least penalized team)
--------- (Brodeur rookie season)
1993-94: 24/26 [Brodeur started 47 of 84]
1994-95: 26/26 [40/48]
1995-96: 26/26 [77/82]
1996-97: 26/26 [67/82]
1997-98: 24/26 [70/82]
1998-99: 22/27 [70/82]
1999-00: 18/28 [72/82]
2000-01: 29/30 [72/82]
2001-02: 30/30 [73/82]
2002-03: 30/30 [73/82]
2003-04: 30/30 [75/82]
---------- (lockout, Stevens retires, Niedermayer leaves)
2005-06: 30/30 [73/82]
2006-07: 30/30 [78/82]
2007-08: 26/30 [77/82]
2008-09: 22/30 (injury) [31/82]
2009-10: 30/30 [77/82]
2010-11: 30/30 [56/82]
2011-12: 21/30 [59/82]
2012-13: 7/30 (injury) [29/48]
2013-14: 18/30 (split with Schneider) [39/82]
----------- (Brodeur not re-signed)
2014-15: 7/30
2015-16: 11/30
2016-17: 8/30

 

[BM67]

I've managed to stay out of this thread for fifteen years, but just dropping my two cents:

- If we're defining goaltending simply to stopping the puck, I'd consider Hasek/Roy better than Marty.

- It's tough to quantify how much Brodeur's puckhandling affected the game. One thing I'd point to is how the Devils were traditionally one of the least penalized teams in the league during his tenure. Fewer penalties to kill will mean fewer goals allowed which will lead to more wins. As the Devils had some subpar defense units post-lockout after losing Stevens/Niedermayer. But they still ranked towards the bottom of teams who were penalized. It seems a little too simplistic to solely attribute it to some "system" as a way to diminish Brodeur's puckhandling skill. Devils defenders often commented how it made their lives easier when Brodeur could diffuse a dump and chase. They took fewer hits chasing down pucks and took fewer defensive zone penalties not fighting with forecheckers on puck retrievals.

1992-93: ranked 18th out of 24 teams (aka 6th least penalized team)
--------- (Brodeur rookie season)
1993-94: 24/26 [Brodeur started 47 of 84]
1994-95: 26/26 [40/48]
1995-96: 26/26 [77/82]
1996-97: 26/26 [67/82]
1997-98: 24/26 [70/82]
1998-99: 22/27 [70/82]
1999-00: 18/28 [72/82]
2000-01: 29/30 [72/82]
2001-02: 30/30 [73/82]
2002-03: 30/30 [73/82]
2003-04: 30/30 [75/82]
---------- (lockout, Stevens retires, Niedermayer leaves)
2005-06: 30/30 [73/82]
2006-07: 30/30 [78/82]
2007-08: 26/30 [77/82]
2008-09: 22/30 (injury) [31/82]
2009-10: 30/30 [77/82]
2010-11: 30/30 [56/82]
2011-12: 21/30 [59/82]
2012-13: 7/30 (injury) [29/48]
2013-14: 18/30 (split with Schneider) [39/82]
----------- (Brodeur not re-signed)
2014-15: 7/30
2015-16: 11/30
2016-17: 8/30

Brodeur impacted many areas of the game. Comparing games from 1993-94 to 2013-14 in which Brodeur played the whole game and games where he didn't, the Devils had more shots for, fewer shots against, fewer faceoffs, fewer D-zone faceoffs, and more PIM but fewer times shorthanded in games with Brodeur playing the whole game.

 

[psycat]

This is literally your most recent post prior to today:

View attachment 507111

Yes, North American fans are more likely to choose Roy over Hasek in this debate, and Europeans are more likely to choose Hasek.

However, many North Americans do have Hasek ahead of Roy, so it's ironic that you (a European) boil this down into a "folks are only choosing Roy because they are North American" without any supporting evidence on your part for why Hasek is the correct answer.

So, since you bumped a very old thread to get our attention, keep our attention. What's your support for Hasek?

Never mind.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

What's the support for ranking McDavid above someonelike Claude Lemieux(with all his playoff success)? Simply different tier of players.

Sure, I agree. How is that relevant to this thread?

(Is your claim that Hasek vs. Roy isn't close enough to be an interesting conversation?)

 

[psycat]

Sure, I agree. How is that relevant to this thread?

(Is your claim that Hasek vs. Roy isn't close enough to be an interesting conversation?)

I don't think it's a debate at all. Some things just are like Mario Lemieux is just superior to Mark Messier, about the same gap for me. But I realized that you are right the bump was ridiculous so not much reason to continue and I apologize for doing it, have better stuff to do and I doubt the needle moves much either way.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I don't think it's a debate at all. Some things just are like Mario Lemieux is just superior to Mark Messier, about the same gap for me. But I realized that you are right the bump was ridiculous so not much reason to continue and I apologize for doing it, have better stuff to do and I doubt the needle moves much either way.

And I guess to close the loop, in this case, which one do you think is so far above the other that it's not even worthy for discussion: Hasek or Roy?

 

[psycat]

And I guess to close the loop, in this case, which one do you think is so far above the other that it's not even worthy for discussion: Hasek or Roy?

I think Hasek is in a different tier to any other goalie that played and the discussion for 2nd is quite open(He is pretty much as far ahead of the next goalie as Orr is of the second defenceman for me).

I could see a case for Hasek above Mario and I could see a case for Roy below Messier but hard to rank goalies with skaters of course.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

honest question: does anybody rank hasek’s 2002 run over any of roy’s three CS runs?

i’ve never seen that argument but i’m open to it if anyone has one

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

honest question: does anybody rank hasek’s 2002 run over any of roy’s three CS runs?

i’ve never seen that argument but i’m open to it if anyone has one

It's certainly better than his '01 CS.

01 was a gift Smythe if we're being honest. That should've gone to Sakic's 13-13-26, especially since he had 9 points in the Finals

 

[MadLuke]

It's certainly better than his '01 CS.

01 was a gift Smythe if we're being honest. That should've gone to Sakic's 13-13-26, especially since he had 9 points in the Finals

I am not sure how relevant Joe Sakic is to the question of 2002 Hasek run being better than Roy.

How Hasek .920, 2.10 GAA in 2002 certainly better than Roy .934 save percentage, 1.70 GAA in 2001 ?

if you look at the top 30 adjusted goaltender playoff run between 1984 and 2021 of @Hockey Outsider :
Goalies: Adjusted Playoff Save Percentage (1984-2021)

Goalie	Cup?	Smythe?	Year	Team	Minutes	Shots	Saves	Sv%
Martin Brodeur	Yes		1995	NJD	1,222	475	448	94.4%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	1993	MTL	1,293	611	577	94.3%
Pelle Lindbergh			1985	PHI	1,008	468	441	94.3%
Ed Belfour*			1995	CHI	1,014	491	462	93.9%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	1986	MTL	1,218	489	458	93.7%
Jean-Sebastien Giguere		Yes	2003	MDA	1,407	760	711	93.6%
Patrick Roy*			1989	MTL	1,206	521	488	93.6%
Reggie Lemelin			1988	BOS	1,027	442	414	93.5%
Olaf Kolzig			1998	WSH	1,351	770	720	93.5%
John Vanbiesbrouck			1996	FLA	1,332	720	672	93.4%
Tim Thomas	Yes	Yes	2011	BOS	1,542	789	736	93.3%
Jonathan Quick	Yes	Yes	2012	LAK	1,238	546	509	93.2%
Dominik Hasek			1999	BUF	1,217	616	574	93.2%
Tom Barrasso	Yes		1991	PIT	1,175	600	559	93.2%
Bill Ranford	Yes	Yes	1990	EDM	1,401	676	629	93.2%
Patrick Roy*	Yes	Yes	2001	COL	1,451	693	645	93.0%
Mike Smith			2012	PHX	1,027	611	568	93.0%
Dwayne Roloson			2006	EDM	1,160	625	581	92.9%
Sean Burke			1988	NJD	1,001	530	492	92.9%
Kirk McLean			1994	VAN	1,544	813	755	92.8%
Martin Brodeur			1994	NJD	1,171	526	488	92.7%
Andy Moog			1990	BOS	1,195	489	453	92.7%
Arturs Irbe			2002	CAR	1,078	511	474	92.7%
Marc-Andre Fleury			2008	PIT	1,251	603	559	92.6%
Andrei Vasilevskiy	Yes	Yes	2021	TBL	1,390	663	614	92.6%
Tuukka Rask			2019	BOS	1,459	699	647	92.5%
Tuukka Rask			2013	BOS	1,466	724	669	92.4%
Alain Chevrier			1989	CHI	1,013	478	441	92.3%
Ed Belfour*	Yes		1999	DAL	1,544	648	597	92.3%
Martin Brodeur	Yes		2003	NJD	1,491	678	626	92.2%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The idea that Roy 2001 Smythe is some gift, look ludicrous, it is really close to Thomas-Quick-Hasek (1999)-Vasilevskiy run.