The Biggest Goat: Bernier, Leighton, others

[Beef Invictus]

I'm expecting Schenn to be the goat too. Not that I necessarily agree with it; I gave Carle a chance for a long time, so I'm going to try to give Schenn a chance. He is starting at a disadvantage though.

 

[Damaged Goods]

Is this is what the offseason is for? Projecting the next goat?

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[Embiid]

Is this is what the offseason is for? Projecting the next goat?

Whatever floats your boat.

In Philly it's a time honored tradition...just continuing it

 

[Beef Invictus]

Is this is what the offseason is for? Projecting the next goat?

Whatever floats your boat.

There's ALWAYS a goat in Philly.

Edit: ^^ beaten like a dead Leighton.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Schenn was a goat in Toronto, fairly or not. There's a reason a team that sucks trades a very young defenseman. I hope he plays well, but I don't expect a hell of a lot out of him.

I'm not saying he wasn't a goat out there or he didn't deserve to be. I just don't like the overreactions that people have to the players that are labeled as goats (Carle, Leighton, and now Schenn). While Carle and Leighton are not superstars by any means, and certainly had their fair share of blunders, a large number of those blunders are blown way out of proportion and whenever anything good happened involving them it was simply brushed under the rug and called lucky or something along those lines.

As you can see, it is already happening with Schenn. The season hasn't started and already he was a "frequent" scratch in Toronto, despite only missing six games over the past three seasons. If he sucks and blows it, get on him all you want, but the overreactions around here get a bit silly and I expect that to continue with Schenn.

However, if JVR becomes a star in Toronto, and Schenn never improves beyond the player he was last year, there are going to be a lot of Flyers fans *****ing and moaning and ready to torch Schenn.

Absolutely. And if they both are just OK people will be all over Schenn. And if they both are real good people will be all over Schenn. And if they both suck people will be all over Schenn. And so forth and so on. The only way people WON'T be all over him is if JvR doesn't have a good season (and even then I will expect excuses like "Well he was gelling with his new team!" or "His linemates sucked!").

Yes, we get it. You can't stomach any criticism of anybody at all, especially if it reflects poorly on Holmgren in the end.

Oh, that's right. It is ok to exaggerate things that make Homer look bad but not ok to correct those exaggerations because I am a "Homer Lover."

Whether you care to admit it or not, Schenn is starting on the bottom since he's been a disappointment in Toronto. He couldn't cut it on a bad team, and it went beyond just one coach. He was traded for the player many view as the consolation prize for The Dying Time. He has a bit to prove. All your petty, condescending sarcasm doesn't change any of that.

He certainly has a lot to prove. I'm not saying Schenn is our number one defenseman or anything like that. Simply saying that because JvR is the new Scottie Upshall (not in terms of skill so don't overreact to that statement, it is just in terms of people crying that he is gone) people are going to overreact to Schenn's play. A prime example is people saying he was a "frequent" scratch in Toronto, or your characterization that he couldn't "cut it" on a bad team. If he ***** the bed then I have no problem with people getting on him. But what we all know is going to happen is every night JvR scores a goal and Luke Schenn doesn't it will be "OMG WHAT A BAD TRDE." and every night Luke Schenn gets has a turnover it will be "OMG HE SUCKS SO MUCH IT IS HIS FAULT AND BRYZ'S AND PROBABLY LEIGHTON'S TOO!"

 

[John Wayne Gretzky]

I can't see how Lou gets the blame for VAN. I mean he played like **** 3 games, but had it not been for his play the 3 games they won, they get swept. What about Kesler and the Sedins who combined for 6 points in the Final?

 

[CharlieGirl]

A prime example is people saying he was a "frequent" scratch in Toronto, or your characterization that he couldn't "cut it" on a bad team. If he ***** the bed then I have no problem with people getting on him. But what we all know is going to happen is every night JvR scores a goal and Luke Schenn doesn't it will be "OMG WHAT A BAD TRDE." and every night Luke Schenn gets has a turnover it will be "OMG HE SUCKS SO MUCH IT IS HIS FAULT AND BRYZ'S AND PROBABLY LEIGHTON'S TOO!"

Dude, you're overreacting more than anyone here. Schenn couldn't cut it on a **** team. That's not slamming him, that's fact. Otherwise, there's no way Burke ever considers trading him. Doesn't mean he's going to suck forever.

You don't know a friggen' thing about what will happen months and years down the road. Neither do I. But you're pitching a fit over it already.

Relax. You'll have plenty of time to blindly defend Homer to the death in the coming months.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Oh, that's right. It is ok to exaggerate things that make Homer look bad but not ok to correct those exaggerations because I am a "Homer Lover."

Nobody exaggerates Homer's flaws and questionable moves to the ridiculous extreme that you take this schtick. Point me to the person who is using caps lock and pointless, empty hyperbole in place of proving an actual point.

He certainly has a lot to prove. I'm not saying Schenn is our number one defenseman or anything like that. Simply saying that because JvR is the new Scottie Upshall (not in terms of skill so don't overreact to that statement, it is just in terms of people crying that he is gone) people are going to overreact to Schenn's play. A prime example is people saying he was a "frequent" scratch in Toronto, or your characterization that he couldn't "cut it" on a bad team. If he ***** the bed then I have no problem with people getting on him. But what we all know is going to happen is every night JvR scores a goal and Luke Schenn doesn't it will be "OMG WHAT A BAD TRDE." and every night Luke Schenn gets has a turnover it will be "OMG HE SUCKS SO MUCH IT IS HIS FAULT AND BRYZ'S AND PROBABLY LEIGHTON'S TOO!"

What CG said.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Dude, you're overreacting more than anyone here. Schenn couldn't cut it on a **** team. That's not slamming him, that's fact. Otherwise, there's no way Burke ever considers trading him. Doesn't mean he's going to suck forever.

I call 'em like I see 'em. If you are going to sit there and tell me people are not going to be extra harsh on Schenn for any/all mistakes he makes, you are delusional. People didn't like the JvR trade. Those people are going to kill Schenn all season long. We see it every year around here. Case in point: the person who posted saying he was a frequent scratch in Toronto. This is a microcosm of what we have seen with Leighton and Carle and will see with Schenn. Something small happens and it is blown up because people don't like the player.

As far as Schenn not cutting it on a bad team. Gimme a break. He played well for three years. Last year was a down year by everyone's account. I wouldn't call a down year and getting scratched at most 3 times in a year "not cutting it" on a bad team. Another overreaction.

You don't know a friggen' thing about what will happen months and years down the road. Neither do I. But you're pitching a fit over it already.

I certainly can draw on my own experience around here to make predictions. This board has a history of overreaction and melting down. Just read some of the posts from the Schenn thread. I believe there was at least one person who called it the worst trade in Flyers history.

Relax. You'll have plenty of time to blindly defend Homer to the death in the coming months.

I'm not blindly defending anyone. I'm simply pointing out that people will overreact to Schenn's shortcomings.

Nobody exaggerates Homer's flaws and questionable moves to the ridiculous extreme that you take this schtick. Point me to the person who is using caps lock and pointless, empty hyperbole in place of proving an actual point.

It's pretty close.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No. It's nowhere close.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

No. It's nowhere close.

Aside form the all caps its pretty much spot on. Now not everyone says this all the time, but on an almost daily basis we get some sort of argument between posters regarding stuff like: Homer is the worst GM ever by some people's claims. JvR for Schenn is worst trade in Flyers history. Most of the Flyers players have super-high ceilings and should not be traded. Most of the other team's players are mediocre at best. No goalie has ever let in a goal that wasn't saveable. No goal the Flyers score is ever soft. And so forth and so on.

And while each argument has it's own merit on both sides, I really don't think it is an outlandish claim that people overreact and exaggerate around here to an extreme degree. While I poke fun at these exaggerations by using all caps, I would think it is pretty clear that I don't actually think anyone has ever said the team is going to fold or be forced to move to KC or that anyone uses all caps to complain about these things. On the other hand, those people complaining are not doing it to poke fun, they are serious. And more than likely those who will argue against that are those that are involved in said exaggerations.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Aside form the all caps its pretty much spot on. Now not everyone says this all the time, but on an almost daily basis we get some sort of argument between posters regarding stuff like: Homer is the worst GM ever by some people's claims. JvR for Schenn is worst trade in Flyers history. Most of the Flyers players have super-high ceilings and should not be traded. Most of the other team's players are mediocre at best. No goalie has ever let in a goal that wasn't saveable. No goal the Flyers score is ever soft. And so forth and so on.

And while each argument has it's own merit on both sides, I really don't think it is an outlandish claim that people overreact and exaggerate around here to an extreme degree. While I poke fun at these exaggerations by using all caps, I would think it is pretty clear that I don't actually think anyone has ever said the team is going to fold or be forced to move to KC or that anyone uses all caps to complain about these things. On the other hand, those people complaining are not doing it to poke fun, they are serious. And more than likely those who will argue against that are those that are involved in said exaggerations.

The only person who routinely says "HOMER IS THE WORST GM EVER" is you. The only person who says "ONLY BRYZ LETS IN BAD GOALS" is you.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

The only person who routinely says "HOMER IS THE WORST GM EVER" is you. The only person who says "ONLY BRYZ LETS IN BAD GOALS" is you.

Lol. Yeah, no one has ever said Homer is the worst GM ever.

I never said Bryz lets in bad goals. I have said all along he wasn't that good last year. But what I didn't say, which is what goes on around here regardless of who is in net, is that after every single goal say that he should have saved it. Which really all you have to do is pick any game where a goal was scored and you'll get a number of people throwing down a or saying how much the goalie sucks or how he should have saved it, etc.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Lol. Yeah, no one has ever said Homer is the worst GM ever.

I never said Bryz lets in bad goals. I have said all along he wasn't that good last year. But what I didn't say, which is what goes on around here regardless of who is in net, is that after every single goal say that he should have saved it. Which really all you have to do is pick any game where a goal was scored and you'll get a number of people throwing down a or saying how much the goalie sucks or how he should have saved it, etc.

So you take what a small, vocal minority proclaims, often while typing before they adequately think, and attribute it to the masses?

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

So you take what a small, vocal minority proclaims, often while typing before they adequately think, and attribute it to the masses?

On the aggregate, yes. There are more people, maybe not the same people, maybe they are the same people, but look through any number of threads on here and you'll see a lot more outlandish statements and unwarranted complaining than level-headed comments. For instance, look at the Bobby Ryan thread where people are saying a guy who never scored 20 goals in his career has equal value or greater to a guy who never scored less than 30. My theory on that, and feel free to disagree, is that if Ryan was on the Flyers, people would say he would be untouchable and a future 50 goal scorer and Voracek would be a scrub. You've been around here longer than I have, it really isn't that far fetched.

 

[CharlieGirl]

And more than likely those who will argue against that are those that are involved in said exaggerations.

Well, I can't argue with you there. You're the worst offender and the one who is arguing the loudest.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Well, I can't argue with you there. You're the worst offender and the one who is arguing the loudest.

The difference is that my exaggerations are done in jest and everyone knows they are exaggerations, including myself. People complaining about contracts, trades, goals, players, values, etc. are serious.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

So you take what a small, vocal minority proclaims, often while typing before they adequately think, and attribute it to the masses?

this convo reminds me of the bp74 pro-bryz discussions (if you could call it that).

were he would always try to say people were saying something they werent..

i kinda miss that thread..

perhaps i should start a Bryz = BUM thread, hahaha

 

[CharlieGirl]

As far as Schenn not cutting it on a bad team. Gimme a break. He played well for three years. Last year was a down year by everyone's account. I wouldn't call a down year and getting scratched at most 3 times in a year "not cutting it" on a bad team. Another overreaction.

Are the Leafs a ****** team?
Has Schenn struggled at times?
Has Schenn been able to repeat his year 1 success?
Has Schenn been a healthy scratch on said ****** team?

If you answer yes, yes, no, yes, then it's not overreaction. It's stating facts - if you are playing for a ****** team (and I dare anyone to try to sell me that the Leafs are not), and if you are held out of the lineup due to poor play on said ****** team (which he was), then how can it be anything but "not cutting it"?

You're grasping at straws pal. And you certainly do blindly defend your favourites, while slamming anyone who doesn't agree with you.

 

[Beef Invictus]

this convo reminds me of the bp74 pro-bryz discussions (if you could call it that).

were he would always try to say people were saying something they werent..

i kinda miss that thread..

perhaps i should start a Bryz = BUM thread, hahaha

Oh God please don't

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Are the Leafs a ****** team?

Yes

Has Schenn struggled at times?

Absolutely

Has Schenn been able to repeat his year 1 success?

Yes (this is where the myth of Luke Schenn and overreactions begin).

Has Schenn been a healthy scratch on said ****** team?

Yes. However, not a frequent scratch as the other poster stated (which really got the ball rolling in this lovely debate).

If you answer yes, yes, no, yes, then it's not overreaction. It's stating facts - if you are playing for a ****** team (and I dare anyone to try to sell me that the Leafs are not), and if you are held out of the lineup due to poor play on said ****** team (which he was), then how can it be anything but "not cutting it"?

I wouldn't call be a rare healthy scratch, even if you are struggling on a ****** team, "not cutting it." Perhaps we have difficult definitions of "not cutting it," but playing all but six games since your rookie year seems to be cutting if you ask me. Now, if he was indeed a frequent healthy scratch and was bounced around back and forth between the AHL, that is what I would call not cutting it. For instance, Kevin Marshall couldn't cut it on the Flyers. Sean Avery couldn't cut it on the Rangers. A player that plays as much as Luke Schenn does can hardly be considered "not cutting it" in my book. Not playing well is a different story. I have fully acknowledged he didn't have a great year last year. In fact a bad year. He was a healthy scratch (though I don't know the exact number, it couldn't have been more than three). But having a down year is not exactly the same thing as "not cutting it."

You're grasping at straws pal. And you certainly do blindly defend your favourites, while slamming anyone who doesn't agree with you.

If you actually read my posts you would know that isn't true. I defend Homer when he deserves defending from the people who go nuts at virtually any move they don't agree with. I also call him out when he deserves it. I'm not going to lose my **** when Joacim Eriksson doesn't get signed. I'm not going cry when a fourth round pick gets traded. I'm not going to say that signing Leighton is going to doom this team like some have suggested. I will say he has handed out some over-payments on contracts for sure. He has made some obvious blunders regarding the CBA. But I keep them all in perspective and give them the weight they are due.

Not every bad move is franchise ruining. Not every good move is franchise saving. You wouldn't know that from reading the majority of the posts around here.

 

[Reduxs]

We don't even get to the cup final without Leighton. Actually I'll amend that, we don't even make the playoffs without Leighton in 2010. When the team around him was imploding, he played strong and kept us in the hunt. Yeah the goal was bad, and none of us will ever forget it, but I'd much rather blame the third defensive pairing (Krajicek in particular) for coming up short in 2010.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

We don't even get to the cup final without Leighton. Actually I'll amend that, we don't even make the playoffs without Leighton in 2010. When the team around him was imploding, he played strong and kept us in the hunt. Yeah the goal was bad, and none of us will ever forget it, but I'd much rather blame the third defensive pairing (Krajicek in particular) for coming up short in 2010.

Don't bother, man. I've been down this road.

EDIT: I see you are new here. Go back and look at some old threads where people say that Michael Leighton's three shutouts in the ECF are not a big deal and he deserves no credit or anything for that (because the defense was so good, not him). That will give you an idea about how "unbiased" people are around here regarding Michael Leighton.

 

[CharlieGirl]

Don't bother, man. I've been down this road.

EDIT: I see you are new here. Go back and look at some old threads where people say that Michael Leighton's three shutouts in the ECF are not a big deal and he deserves no credit or anything for that (because the defense was so good, not him). That will give you an idea about how "unbiased" people are around here regarding Michael Leighton.

Oh look, you've found a kindred spirit.

I don't recall anyone saying that the shutouts were nothing, but while Leighton was good, he was also helped out by his defense. The problem was that he eventually started playing like Leighton and that was his and the Flyers' downfall. If he had been able to continue to channel a good goalie and not play like himself, the Flyers have a Cup in 2010.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Oh look, you've found a kindred spirit.

I don't recall anyone saying that the shutouts were nothing, but while Leighton was good, he was also helped out by his defense.

Absolutely he was helped out, but three shutouts in the ECF is three shutouts in the ECF. You should definitely go back and read the threads because I got in multi-page arguments with people who said that Montreal sucked, the shots were all perimeter shots, the defense was amazing, etc. and would not even give him the slightest credit on doing something extremely impressive.

I also find it interesting that it is perfectly fine to take away from his shutouts because of good defense, but unacceptable to use poor defense as an excuse in the Cup finals.

The problem was that he eventually started playing like Leighton and that was his and the Flyers' downfall. If he had been able to continue to channel a good goalie and not play like himself, the Flyers have a Cup in 2010.

I agree. If Leighton played better they would have won. But if Gagne, Richards, or Carter put some points (Combined Stats: 4G, 2A, -21) on the board they also would have won. If their third pairing played more than fifty seconds per game they would have had a much better chance too. But those other things don't count. Leighton was the real reason, right?

It was a team effort to lose. Leighton was part of it, no doubt. But how is you saying Leighton playing better any different from me saying that Gagne, Carter, or Richards should have played better? And once again, why can't the lack of a third pairing on defense be factored in to the losing effort but good play can be factored into a winning effort? Oh, right. It's Michael Leighton. That's why.

EDIT: Here's just one example of the three ECF shutouts not being a big deal:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=32160391&postcount=476