The best rookie defenceman?

[Romkey]

While Dahlin is amazing, Heiskanen is looking more developed (obviously), and more ready to step into a top 2 role. I don't think the skill gap between the two is as big as a lot of people think

 

[CallMeShaft]

I said this in the Jokiharju thread in the prospect board, but the stats all show Jokiharju ahead of Heiskanen in most instances except defensive zone starts. Heiskanen gets a little over 30% of offensive zone starts, while Jokiharju has been getting around 70%. Big difference there and it does help balance things out a bit between the two.

Jokiharju plays a more steady, north/south style than Heiskanen (who has a little EK in him). It might be a bit of a challenge for Jokiharju's game to grow as much as Hieskanen's simply for the style of player they each are.

It'll be a fun little debate to be had about the two, as well as Valimaki, throughout this season. Even better when you account that the only defensemen in the NHL right now from the 2017 draft are all 1st round Finns. But each team's fanbase can be pretty content with how the three have performed thus far.

 

[ijuka]

The kid has barely played in the league and you are already saying he's a bust? For real?

Reading comprehension. That's not me calling him a bust. The meaning of the word "Since" is important.

Nathan MacKinnon. Aaron Ekblad. Connor McDavid. Auston Matthews. Nico Hischier.

He was hyped the second-most after Connor McDavid. Auston Matthews is debatable. All 5 were more impressive initially in their NHL careers. Therefore, most disappointing.

 

[ManWithNoName]

It's Petterssons to lose. Just look at the goals he scores, he is playing with such confidence he will just continue scoring and win the Calder. Heiskanen is my second pick. Svechnikov no 3.

Dahlin is nowhere near the Calder and won't be.

 

[wintersej]

Except he isn't a rookie.

Yeah but the Leafs don't have any good rookies so we have to count him.

 

[Kamiccolo]

I wonder if anyone is watching Buffalo. Dahlin for me. He plays such a quiet smart game. He was advertised as Lidstrom part 2 and honestly I can see it. Offense hasn't really come yet but he is just so smart.

It's especially apparent watching him and Risto back to back. Teams pressure the defense and Risto usually gives the puck up way to easily. Dahlin impressed me because he is able to make the smart safe play and use his quick hands and strong lateral skating to get himself out of trouble and perform a clean transition out of the zone. He's also able to hold the zone when on the attack. Here he has looked more paniced to me, but I think that is just experience. As he gets more comfortable the offense will come. However watching him is just special.

Heiskanen watching the Leaf game, he played a ton of minutes and had a point but he got eaten alive in a lot of aspects. I think that he is going to be a top pairing D no question and probably even a #1. Very mature and a ton of poise.

Didn't notice Jokiharju during the game but honesty not sure anyone played defense that one.

I think that, in my opinion and with a small sample size, Dahlin looks the most special. Especially considering the rosters these guys are on, Dahlin already looks like their best player.

 

[ImNeverWrong]

Cholowski should be in the conversation. He's been playing with poise beyond his years and he's a great passer.

this kid is so underrated. it's maddening how he's not getting any rispek. he's made the wings pp look dangerous while playing the most minutes on that battered defense.

 

[Kcb12345]

I wonder if anyone is watching Buffalo. Dahlin for me. He plays such a quiet smart game. He was advertised as Lidstrom part 2 and honestly I can see it. Offense hasn't really come yet but he is just so smart.

It's especially apparent watching him and Risto back to back. Teams pressure the defense and Risto usually gives the puck up way to easily. Dahlin impressed me because he is able to make the smart safe play and use his quick hands and strong lateral skating to get himself out of trouble and perform a clean transition out of the zone. He's also able to hold the zone when on the attack. Here he has looked more paniced to me, but I think that is just experience. As he gets more comfortable the offense will come. However watching him is just special.

Heiskanen watching the Leaf game, he played a ton of minutes and had a point but he got eaten alive in a lot of aspects. I think that he is going to be a top pairing D no question and probably even a #1. Very mature and a ton of poise.

Didn't notice Jokiharju during the game but honesty not sure anyone played defense that one.

I think that, in my opinion and with a small sample size, Dahlin looks the most special. Especially considering the rosters these guys are on, Dahlin already looks like their best player.

When did he get eaten alive in a lot of aspects? He made one bad pinch when the Stars needed a goal that led to a 3 on 1 but nothing came from it. Other than that he was by far the Stars best defenseman out there.

He was on the ice for no goals against at all outside of the empty netter (could've played that better but so could the rest of the group).

Other than that he didn't make any major mistakes, and none of his mistakes that he did make were costly. He played so much because he was the only defenseman playing good both ways and that could move the puck for us

 

[ijuka]

Heiskanen watching the Leaf game, he played a ton of minutes and had a point but he got eaten alive in a lot of aspects.

Plays vs Leafs offense. Most 5v5 ice time on the entire team. 4 shots on goal against, 18 shots on goal for(5v5). No goals against 5v5. Best Corsi on team by a massive margin also(5v5). "Eaten alive".

Nice to see whose eye test to trust and whose to not.

 

[M88K]

I wonder if anyone is watching Buffalo. Dahlin for me. He plays such a quiet smart game. He was advertised as Lidstrom part 2 and honestly I can see it. Offense hasn't really come yet but he is just so smart.

It's especially apparent watching him and Risto back to back. Teams pressure the defense and Risto usually gives the puck up way to easily. Dahlin impressed me because he is able to make the smart safe play and use his quick hands and strong lateral skating to get himself out of trouble and perform a clean transition out of the zone. He's also able to hold the zone when on the attack. Here he has looked more paniced to me, but I think that is just experience. As he gets more comfortable the offense will come. However watching him is just special.

Heiskanen watching the Leaf game, he played a ton of minutes and had a point but he got eaten alive in a lot of aspects. I think that he is going to be a top pairing D no question and probably even a #1. Very mature and a ton of poise.

Didn't notice Jokiharju during the game but honesty not sure anyone played defense that one.

I think that, in my opinion and with a small sample size, Dahlin looks the most special. Especially considering the rosters these guys are on, Dahlin already looks like their best player.

Not sure who you watched but it wasn't Heiskanen.
Lindell, Klingberg, Carrick, or Polak maybe?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I wonder if anyone is watching Buffalo. Dahlin for me. He plays such a quiet smart game. He was advertised as Lidstrom part 2 and honestly I can see it. Offense hasn't really come yet but he is just so smart.

It's especially apparent watching him and Risto back to back. Teams pressure the defense and Risto usually gives the puck up way to easily. Dahlin impressed me because he is able to make the smart safe play and use his quick hands and strong lateral skating to get himself out of trouble and perform a clean transition out of the zone. He's also able to hold the zone when on the attack. Here he has looked more paniced to me, but I think that is just experience. As he gets more comfortable the offense will come. However watching him is just special.

Heiskanen watching the Leaf game, he played a ton of minutes and had a point but he got eaten alive in a lot of aspects. I think that he is going to be a top pairing D no question and probably even a #1. Very mature and a ton of poise.

Didn't notice Jokiharju during the game but honesty not sure anyone played defense that one.

I think that, in my opinion and with a small sample size, Dahlin looks the most special. Especially considering the rosters these guys are on, Dahlin already looks like their best player.

Dahlin: 45 cf%, 33 gf%, 35 xgf% against easier competition: "most special"
Heiskanen: 52 cf%, 75 gf%, 55 xgf% against tougher competition: "eaten alive"

yeah yeah small sample size, but you did cite it in your argument as proof that Dahlin is better. He's really not.

Also kind of funny that you somehow missed Jokiharju when he had 3 assists and 5 shots on goal. he was pretty tough not to notice

 

[Kamiccolo]

Dahlin: 45 cf%, 33 gf%, 35 xgf% against easier competition: "most special"
Heiskanen: 52 cf%, 75 gf%, 55 xgf% against tougher competition: "eaten alive"

yeah yeah small sample size, but you did cite it in your argument as proof that Dahlin is better. He's really not.

Also kind of funny that you somehow missed Jokiharju when he had 3 assists and 5 shots on goal. he was pretty tough not to notice

Corsi really? Corsi is not only not any better than +/-, but it is largely influenced by their team and linemates. Not only that, the sample size is too small to draw any conclusion from it.

I am using the eye test. Dahlin is special. I am just saying in a few years people will act like it was common knowledge and yes he was a 1st OA but he is already a franchise D. I can honestly say his game isn't there yet but the tools, for example there is no Leaf D who thinks the game like him.

 

[WhatWhat]

Miro looks like an absolute stud and just rocked 23 even strength minutes against the team that likely finishes with the top offence. The entire team last night looked like shit outside of the top line and Miro. Kid looks like a vet

 

[WhatWhat]

Corsi really? Corsi is not only not any better than +/-, but it is largely influenced by their team and linemates. Not only that, the sample size is too small to draw any conclusion from it.

I am using the eye test. Dahlin is special. I am just saying in a few years people will act like it was common knowledge and yes he was a 1st OA but he is already a franchise D. I can honestly say his game isn't there yet but the tools, for example there is no Leaf D who thinks the game like him.

I mean sure its just corsi if you stop reading his post after like 20 characters... He listed more than just corsi yet you managed to get hung up on it. Maybe take a step back and look at the 2 objectively because at no point has Heiskanen been close to "getting eaten alive"

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Corsi really? Corsi is not only not any better than +/-, but it is largely influenced by their team and linemates. Not only that, the sample size is too small to draw any conclusion from it.

I am using the eye test. Dahlin is special. I am just saying in a few years people will act like it was common knowledge and yes he was a 1st OA but he is already a franchise D. I can honestly say his game isn't there yet but the tools, for example there is no Leaf D who thinks the game like him.

use relative corsi then, it's the same story. Corsi is much more valuable than +/- because it's a bigger sample. And if you're saying the sample size for this season is too small (it is), why are you trying to use it?

yes Dahlin is still a special player despite his slow start. Heiskanen has been better though. I expect that to change going forward since Dahlin is younger and has ridiculous upside, but Heiskanen was the better player last year and has been the better player in the NHL

 

[Panthaz89]

I think it's Miro Heiskanen.

As much as I like Jokiharju, I don't think that his performance will age as well over the season as Heiskanen's. Heiskanen has performed incredibly when it come to defense. For instance, vs Leafs, he was on the ice for 18 shots for and 4 against, during 5v5.

Dahlin's been meh. People really look for things to talk about him. His performance has been OK at best, certainly nowhere near what was expected and certainly no generational start.Most disappointing #1OA since Yakupov thus far. Of course, he can still pick it up.

This is total bs unbelievably bad take...Dahlin has been pretty dann good...points arent everything for a D-man.

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

It's Heiskanen easily. The guy has come into the league so far looking like a top 10 D in the league in his prime.

Nothing against Dahlin, who's still a generational prospect. Most D struggle coming into the league, and he's looked pretty good given his age.

 

[ijuka]

Corsi really? Corsi is not only not any better than +/-, but it is largely influenced by their team and linemates.

Vs Leafs, 5v5 Corsi top Ds:
Heiskanen 65.12%
Lindell 52.16%
Carrick 48.28%
Klingberg 42.59%
Methot 40.54% -- Heiskanen's partner btw
Polak 27.78%

And again, 4 shots on goal against, 18 for.

Methot: 4 shots on goal against, 9 for. So while Heiskanen was without his partner, he was 9 for 0 against in terms of shots for / against and gained +25 corsi%.

"largely influenced by linemates" yes, but who is influencing who and how?


To be clear, Heiskanen has 23:34 of 5v5 ice time and you're saying the Leafs offense(perhaps the best offense in the league) getting only 4 shots on goal during all that time is pure luck? Not just that, but the "eaten alive" part apparently didn't include shots on goal?

 

[ijuka]

This is total bs unbelievably bad take...Dahlin has been pretty dann good...points arent everything for a D-man.

Points aren't everything but both his concrete as well as advanced stats are terrible. But advanced or basic stats or general statistical measures of defensive ability aren't anything either, right?

Dahlin is ranked 16 / 19 on his team in terms of Corsi%(45.16%) and 16/19 in terms of high danger corsi %(12 against, 4 for for 25%).

 

[Kcb12345]

Vs Leafs, 5v5 Corsi top Ds:
Heiskanen 65.12%
Lindell 52.16%
Carrick 48.28%
Klingberg 42.59%
Methot 40.54% -- Heiskanen's partner btw
Polak 27.78%

And again, 4 shots on goal against, 18 for.

Methot: 4 shots on goal against, 9 for. So while Heiskanen was without his partner, he was 9 for 0 against in terms of shots for / against and gained +25 corsi%.

"largely influenced by linemates" yes, but who is influencing who and how?


To be clear, Heiskanen has 23:34 of 5v5 ice time and you're saying the Leafs offense(perhaps the best offense in the league) getting only 4 shots on goal during all that time is pure luck? Not just that, but the "eaten alive" part apparently didn't include shots on goal?

All of this while playing his off side as well. Another major reason why he is such an asset to us. Can play LD/RD and switch back and forth with ease against top end opponents (either Matthews or Tavares/Marner all game basically)

 

[Panthaz89]

Points aren't everything but both his concrete as well as advanced stats are terrible. But advanced or basic stats or general statistical measures of defensive ability aren't anything either, right?
Dahlin is ranked 16 / 19 on his team in terms of Corsi%(45.16%) and 16/19 in terms of high danger corsi %(12 against, 4 for for 25%).

glad the stats for how a team performs when 5 people are on the ice matters for you...now point out the great defensive lapses in those games with your eyes since you clearly haven't watched him play and look at a stat sheet sample size of 3 games...on stats that are literally influenced heavily by playing with teammates. Meanwhile Dallas gives up 7 goals where was Miro at when Toronto's star players were busy celebrating all their goals? Must be easy to play against inferior lineups I guess. Good thing games are played on the ice....

 

[Kcb12345]

glad the stats for how a team performs when 5 people are on the ice matters for you...now point out the great defensive lapses in those games with your eyes since you clearly haven't watched him play and look at a stat sheet sample size of 3 games...on stats that are literally influenced heavily by playing with teammates. Meanwhile Dallas gives up 7 goals where was Miro at when Toronto's star players were busy celebrating all their goals? Must be easy to play against inferior lineups I guess. Good thing games are played on the ice....

Miro faced one of Tavares/Matthews all game long. Only time they'd score was on the PP or when they caught Klingberg-Lindell out there. Not sure what you're trying to say. He faced the toughest competition and still succeeded. He should've been on the #1 PK unit as well where Klingberg-Lindell were torched yet kept getting thrown out there.

Just like how Miro faced Scheifele or Laine every shift last game too. I don't think you realize he is one of our most trusted dmen now and will only face top end competition.

Did you watch the game? Appears you have no clue what you're

 

[Panthaz89]

Miro faced one of Tavares/Matthews all game long. Only time they'd score was on the PP or when they caught Klingberg-Lindell out there. Not sure what you're trying to say. He faced the toughest competition and still succeeded. He should've been on the #1 PK unit as well where Klingberg-Lindell were torched yet kept getting thrown out there

Did you watch the game?

Toughest competition is PK not 5v5

 

[ijuka]

glad the stats for how a team performs when 5 people are on the ice matters for you...now point out the great defensive lapses in those games with your eyes since you clearly haven't watched him play and look at a stat sheet sample size of 3 games...on stats that are literally influenced heavily by playing with teammates. Meanwhile Dallas gives up 7 goals where was Miro at when Toronto's star players were busy celebrating all their goals? Must be easy to play against inferior lineups I guess. Good thing games are played on the ice....

He was... Not on the ice? He can't play for 60 minutes a game.

I mean, it's tough to argue with you. I've presented numerous advanced stats that you can easily confirm by going to corsica or naturalstattrick. We have goals for, we have plus/minus, we have points, we have zone start %, whatever you enjoy using. We have my eye test.

Yet your eye test, when you've clearly not even watched Miro Heiskanen, is supposed to override all of that? Yeah, not buying it. Sample size's small? Sure. Miro Heiskanen's been superior to Rasmus Dahlin during that small sample size? Absolutely yes.

Toughest competition is PK not 5v5

Yikes, these takes are so bad. I think my brain cells might evaporate.

Rasmus Dahlin has had 57 seconds of PK time.

 

[Panthaz89]

He was... Not on the ice? He can't play for 60 minutes a game.

I mean, it's tough to argue with you. I've presented numerous advanced stats that you can easily confirm by going to corsica or naturalstattrick. We have goals for, we have plus/minus, we have points, we have zone start %, whatever you enjoy using. We have my eye test.

Yet your eye test, when you've clearly not even watched Miro Heiskanen, is supposed to override all of that? Yeah, not buying it. Sample size's small? Sure. Miro Heiskanen's been superior to Rasmus Dahlin during that small sample size? Absolutely yes.
Yikes, these takes are so bad. I think my brain cells might evaporate.

Rasmus Dahlin has had 57 seconds of PK time.

Never said he had much but your argument is trash like corsi...a stat measured to show how 5 players perform when you are on the ice not exactly what the individual is doing. Maybe he should have McCabe as his partner and collect some juicy corsi in the Sabres amazing system. Again show me clips of what Dahlin is doing to earn the shots against since Ive actually watched the games.