OT: The Avalounge -- If it ain't broke, fix it till it is

[Bonzai12]

I think this is the problem - there's no middle ground anymore. Everything's taken to one extreme or another by the media. Smacking your kid for being an idiot isn't discipline its automatically child abuse.

 

[Avsboy]

I would take more of a new age approach to raising kids. I would talk to them a lot and try to teach them conversation skills form an early age, and generally give positive encouragement. I'd go light on the rules, but if a rule is broken I would punish by doing the old "go to your room." Maybe I'd yell if it really pissed me off.

I don't see how an old fashion approach like spanking has any impact at all, and in general treating the kid like a nothing won't be good for the kid's mental development. Now I don't mind spanking or something like that - it's not necessarily abuse IMO. I'm just saying - it's better to encourage your kid to come out, not shut him/her down when he/she is doing something that you don't like for your own reason.

 

[cgf]

I think this is the problem - there's no middle ground anymore. Everything's taken to one extreme or another by the media. Smacking your kid for being an idiot isn't discipline its automatically child abuse.

Sure a good parent who has a strong/healthy relationship with their child can turn to that 1-3 times in their child's lives; but those aren't the parents we need laws for. We need those laws for the ****** parents for whom an intermittent smack to the jaw is easier than dedicating the time and energy to being involved with their kids lives, to stimulate their kids development, or to show them the better way to handle things...the parents who don't know any better because their own ****** parents who never doubted their parenting because they came from that 'as long as it's your own kid...' generation who never showed them any other way of doing it.

And not having those laws would only serve to further validate to those ****** parents that what they are doing is ok, or worse, "the right way" to raise their kids. That's why I'll gladly take the risk that if I have a child of my own and feel compelled to hit him someday, that it'll be up to him to decide whether I get into legal issues over it or if it was warranted; if that means that the legal system at least is telling those abusive parents that what they are doing is ****ed up, and providing mechanisms for punishing/educating them and protecting the children. Of course the legal system really sucks at the later aspects of that, but it's better than giving them implicit consent to continue wailing away by just letting them continue unabated.

- I apologize in advance for any ****ed spelling/grammar/syntax; haven't been thinking-in/speaking english all night and am just now getting ready to crawl into bed after another cigarette or two.

 

[5280]

Blanton's.

It's not cheap ($55-$65) a bottle up here but if you like the smokey/peaty single malts I can't recommend Laphroaig strongly enough.

Again, I'm a fan of what comes out of the Buffalo Trace distillery. Blanton's is $$, but Buffalo Trace and WL Weller are my mid-price go-to's. BT for drinking neat (or rocks), Weller for mixing.

Hey thanks guys! I'll have to check some of them out.

 

[Bonzai12]

I'm still trying to figure out how to drink whiskey. I know I like it on the rocks. Even then it's kind of too strong for me. After the ice is melted a little is when I really like it, but by that time I feel like it tastes completely different from when I first tasted it after it was poured.

Is whiskey supposed to breathe a little before trying it?

 

[cgf]

Not breath persay, but it's supposed to have a drop of water to open up its flavors.

 

[ASmileyFace]

You guys are talking history and whiskey!? MY favorite things!

 

[ABasin]

I would take more of a new age approach to raising kids. I would talk to them a lot and try to teach them conversation skills form an early age, and generally give positive encouragement. I'd go light on the rules, but if a rule is broken I would punish by doing the old "go to your room." Maybe I'd yell if it really pissed me off.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure many parents talk about parenthood with a similar set of uber idealistic ideas at the outset. But then life happens. And there's always that one huuuuuggge variable that comes into play in the midst of all that - the child. I found that one of the very toughest lessons of parenthood - particularly with kids in their teen years - is that we as parents really don't have all that much control. Many kids' brains are simply wired the way they're wired, and no amount of good parenting is going to alter that wiring all that much.

Looking back, I also found that 'go to your room' and yelling aren't really very useful teaching or discipline tools (I've never spanked my kids). For example, most kids' rooms are pretty fun places to be - toys, books, games, etc. Removing something they really like from them (or removing them from something they really like) or good old fashioned hard work were always the more effective 'rewards' for rule breaking, IMO.

 

[Alex Jones]

Dude i loved getting sent to my room as a kid. That just meant it was game boy time.

 

[Avsboy]

My room had nothing much in it growing up. But anyway, you can still punish kids by sending them to their room, just make sure their room has nothing fun in it.

I also don't buy the "kids are wired the way they are" idea. They can be molded.

 

[ABasin]

My room had nothing much in it growing up. But anyway, you can still punish kids by sending them to their room, just make sure their room has nothing fun in it.

I also don't buy the "kids are wired the way they are" idea. They can be molded.

They can be molded to a point, I think.

Are your kids still really young?

 

[Avsboy]

They can be molded to a point, I think.

Are your kids still really young?

I'm 25 and without kids. My cousins have many children.

 

[SB]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure many parents talk about parenthood with a similar set of uber idealistic ideas at the outset. But then life happens. And there's always that one huuuuuggge variable that comes into play in the midst of all that - the child. I found that one of the very toughest lessons of parenthood - particularly with kids in their teen years - is that we as parents really don't have all that much control. Many kids' brains are simply wired the way they're wired, and no amount of good parenting is going to alter that wiring all that much....

Truth^^. It's the second kid that really makes you understand this is the case. Same parents, same values, same parenting styles, and you can have completely different kids. You have to be flexible in how you treat them. It's hard. But what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other. eg, punishment. My son was not at all motivated by punishment, of any nature, but my daughter is. Luckily he's a good kid, and never has required drastic punishment, but it certainly isn't the way to get him to do anything. My daughter hates even the threat of punishment, so she's easy like that. (We do punish him when he needs it, of course, but it does not change his behavior.)

 

[tigervixxxen]

Im an only child and was pretty much treated like an adult my whole life, I don't have kids either so I guess I'm not so familiar with the parenting thing. What I would follow if I was though is kids are smarter than most give them credit for, try to understand where they are coming from and then give them reason. But kids are emotional and if there needs to be punishment then so be it. I always found if something was stern and excessive then kids just either manipulate or deceive more to get out of it.

 

[UncleRisto]

Absolutely. Kids around four are smart enough to have a talk with and you can reason with them. Not setting boundaries (saying no) is what gets you bad 'results'. Bargaining with kids only works to an extent. You can't always seek for a positive solution.

 

[Nzap]

Hmm, I was never sent to my room or grounded.
I always had conversations with my parents about things we disagreed on from early age.
I felt that was a really good way by them to raise me.

Although I have enormous commitment and trust issues anyway so what do I know.

 

[ABasin]

I'm 25 and without kids.

Ah, OK. That makes sense. I mean no offense on earth, but as a veteran parent, I find your comments fairly idealistic. Which is fine - I'm pretty much 100% sure I made similarly idealistic comments about parenting kids before I actually had to do it.

My cousins have many children.

So did mine (and my siblings) before I had kids. Watching other people parent and having to do it yourself are two things that are not in the same universe.

In the end, there is no single right answer. Getting back to the original point, I never once hit or spanked my kids. I always had the view that just because I made them (well, in truth my wife did most of that) didn't give me the right to physically harm them. Plus, I just don't see how that's the most effective way to teach a kid something. Likewise, I never threatened them with God's wrath or disappointment (a LOT of parents do this) either. Those sorts of fire and brimstone approaches just seem to result in kids being afraid, rather than kids learning something.

Behavioral change due to learning is much better than behavioral change due to fear. The former is better for the kids, and they tend to last much longer. The challenge for parents is that said behavioral changes due to fear are often attained more quickly. A shortcut that (IMO) costs both parent and child later, but it's still a shortcut.

 

[cgf]

Truth^^. It's the second kid that really makes you understand this is the case. Same parents, same values, same parenting styles, and you can have completely different kids. You have to be flexible in how you treat them. It's hard. But what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other. eg, punishment. My son was not at all motivated by punishment, of any nature, but my daughter is. Luckily he's a good kid, and never has required drastic punishment, but it certainly isn't the way to get him to do anything. My daughter hates even the threat of punishment, so she's easy like that. (We do punish him when he needs it, of course, but it does not change his behavior.)

I'm not a parent but I was a pseudo-step parent for a couple of years and this is something that I've seen even just as a part-timer. That's why abuse is the only place were I am fiercely ideological about parenting. There's so much of parent that is just figuring out what works with a given kid at the stage they are at, but hitting them or psychologically abusing them just can not be in the playbook as an option.

I do have a general philosophical belief in letting stay kids as long as they can...cause my parents did not understand the concept of age-appropriateness and I do wish I hadn't grown up as quickly / gotten to stay a kid for longer. But even that's a belief that doesn't hold up in practice because I would never lie to protect their innocence, so if a kid asks me about something and it is clear that they are thinking about it, I will answer them honestly; be it santa/religion/politics/art/economic-theory/whether or not I would also like to see a return of dinosaurs.

 

[ABasin]

Truth^^. It's the second kid that really makes you understand this is the case. Same parents, same values, same parenting styles, and you can have completely different kids. You have to be flexible in how you treat them. It's hard. But what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other. eg, punishment.

Exactly so. I had two kids very close together, same gender, grew up their whole lives sharing a bathroom - and they're absolutely nothing like each other. The only thing they really seem to have in common is a taste in clothes, since they're constantly taking each others'.

Sidebar for TV and the other women in here: Why can't you people wear your own clothes? I promise you that I own less than 5% of the clothes in my home, but even my tshirts and sweat shirts disappear fairly regularly. My wife has been doing it for years, now I've got three of them harvesting my closet.

Anyway, that's why I made the point that in many ways, they're wired the way they're wired. That doesn't mean they can't be taught, or they can't change. But there are some things about kids that parents really can't do anything about.

Im an only child and was pretty much treated like an adult my whole life, I don't have kids either so I guess I'm not so familiar with the parenting thing. What I would follow if I was though is kids are smarter than most give them credit for, try to understand where they are coming from and then give them reason. But kids are emotional and if there needs to be punishment then so be it. I always found if something was stern and excessive then kids just either manipulate or deceive more to get out of it.

Kids are both very smart and very stupid at the same time. Many kids tend to be smart from a knowledge and manipulation standpoint, but are sometimes shockingly dense in terms of decision making and knowing right from wrong, safe from unsafe, etc. Kids also tend to be very impulsive, and also tend to be unable to control their behavior in the face of strong emotion - and those two things often override said smartness an awful lot of the time.

Hence, the need for parents.

I would never lie to protect their innocence, so if a kid asks me about something and it is clear that they are thinking about it, I will answer them honestly; be it santa/religion/politics/art/economic-theory/whether or not I would also like to see a return of dinosaurs.

Wholeheartedly agreed. And you listed some of the easier ones. That position of honesty shouldn't change, even if Santa/religion/dinosaurs are replaced by oral sex, pedophiles, or a friend/relative who went to prison for some reason. Give them the truth.

Religion can be a tricky one. I've found that really religious parents often mandate that their kids follow their religion. We've discussed this as a family many dozens of times. I strongly believe that one's religion or relationship with God (or whatever) is a personal journey, and I always gave my kids my full support and the freedom to choose their own. The journey continues…

 

[tigervixxxen]

Haha, I used to wear my dad's flannel in high school, hey it was the 90s. I actually don't take my husband's clothes. I don't like Tshirts and sweatshirts and he's really tall and skinny and I'm short and not soo... That doesn't work out. He's the oldest of 4 and has a real issue with people taking and using his things or sharing. He'd get pretty angry at me actually.

 

[cgf]

Wholeheartedly agreed. And you listed some of the easier ones. That position shouldn't change, even if Santa/religion/politics are replaced by oral sex, pedophiles, or a friend/relative who went to prison for some reason. Give them the truth.

lol all 3 of those are easier for me to be honest with kids about than Santa/Religion; as a non-believer I just feel like it is not my place to be poking holes in the faith of the children of believers.

But answering questions about how much more enjoyable it can be to bring pleasure to your partner than focus on your own satisfaction, or the realities of the legal system were much easier because that's practical info that it's important for them to know the absolute truth about...at least the truth as best as I know it. Never had to talk to him about pedos, but his mom was very obsessed with making sure he was aware/safe from that type of abuse because she had to watch her sister get molested by their stepdad until she took her own life. But I'd imagine that conversation would be easier for than the Santa/God talks as well.

 

[ABasin]

lol all 3 of those are easier for me to be honest with kids about than Santa/Religion; as a non-believer I just feel like it is not my place to be poking holes in the faith of the children of believers.

Dude. How can you not believe in Santa?

But answering questions about how much more enjoyable it can be to bring pleasure to your partner than focus on your own satisfaction, or the realities of the legal system were much easier because that's practical info that it's important for them to know the absolute truth about...at least the truth as best as I know it. Never had to talk to him about pedos, but his mom was very obsessed with making sure he was aware/safe from that type of abuse because she had to watch her sister get molested by their stepdad until she took her own life. But I'd imagine that conversation would be easier for than the Santa/God talks as well.

I know a lot of parents who are really uncomfortable talking with their kids about sex or anything that might take away a piece their kids' innocence. One time, I was driving my 10 or 11 year old daughter home from school with her grandmother in the passenger seat, and from the back seat, my daughter asked me what a dil*o is. I answered the question honestly and directly - while her grandmother damn near spit up her Starbucks on my windshield (my wife and I got a hell of a laugh about it later).

 

[tigervixxxen]

My mom thought it would be best to fill me in on Santa when I was 5, I was devastated. I agree on not continuing the lying but from how I remembered it I wasn't asking either. I don't think my parents ever sat me down but they were willing to answer anything. My dad is like a very close friend to me this day and we talk about a lot of things. My mom is much more reserved and we butt heads a bit.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

So the pov video of the Virgina shooting has the gunman with a white hand wearing a blue plaid shirt while the original video of the victim shows the gunman as a black male wearing all black

 

[LieutenantDangle]

the problem with true punishment is that its only effective if you punish the child each and every time they perform the undesired behavior... which, lets be honest that is damn near impossible. the most effective form of behavior modification is negative reinforcement. remove something that the child loves when they behave inproperly. take away their favorite toy, or take away tv time, or play time, so long as the toy u take away isn't like a blanket that they use to cope with stress or anxiety. the trouble with young developing minds that a lot of adults don't understand is that they don't have the same reasoning skills that adult minds have. they don't understand cause and effect. very primitive in that sense. they seek instant gratification and avoid displeasure. I don't advocate spanking, but for some families they only have to spank the child one time and thats enough to use the threat of spanking as motivation for the child to obey orders. its not an approach that works for all kids though. there is no single technique to teach children obedience.

The ****** part though is that theres so many parents out there that don't know how to cope with disobedient children. they get so frustrated that they resort to violence and anger and withdraw their love and affection. being cold and distant with kids can be just as damaging to their lives as physically abusing them... its called mental abuse and it sticks with people for a very long time