Speculation: The Atlantic City experiment

[BadFella]

It would absolutely work however the team does need an identity loose to the Devils brand. Much like the Thunder, you will get Yankees fans but your bread and butter is families from Bucks and Mercer Counties and Bordentown/Mansfield and northern Burlington county.

The Devils don't seem to be willing to do that. Other than the River Rats (who at least used the Devils color scheme), they've always wanted their minor league teams to toe the line. Utica Devils, Trenton Devils, Albany Devils, Lowell Devils...

This for the locals and the transisents bring their ny loyalities with them.

Not necessarily transients. Head to Robbinsville, Princeton, or the Windsors, and you'd think you were in another state. Philadelphia fans are virtually non-existent, and you're still in Mercer County.

Again, it's catering to a local market and not necessarily putting it in their face that you are the baby Devils.

I agree, and I wish they did just that, as I liked going to T-Devils and T-Titans games, but I don't see this franchise going back into Trenton, and if they did, I don't know why they would use the Titans moniker when they're trying to build the Devils brand in Central and Southern NJ.

 

[GhostofKenKlee]

The Devils don't seem to be willing to do that. Other than the River Rats (who at least used the Devils color scheme), they've always wanted their minor league teams to toe the line. Utica Devils, Trenton Devils, Albany Devils, Lowell Devils...


Not necessarily transients. Head to Robbinsville, Princeton, or the Windsors, and you'd think you were in another state. Philadelphia fans are virtually non-existent, and you're still in Mercer County.


I agree, and I wish they did just that, as I liked going to T-Devils and T-Titans games, but I don't see this franchise going back into Trenton, and if they did, I don't know why they would use the Titans moniker when they're trying to build the Devils brand in Central and Southern NJ.

There are a huge number of transients, but I would agree on Plainsboro and areas closer to Middelsex. However, those with roots from Trenton are mostly Philly fans.

That baby Yankees, Phillies or any team won't fly in a region with a lot of different loyalties if the Yankees and Phillies get it, why don't the Devils?

 

[BadFella]

That baby Yankees, Phillies or any team won't fly in a region with a lot of different loyalties if the Yankees and Phillies get it, why don't the Devils?

1. The Lamoriellos do things their way, for better or worse. Maybe new owners will play a more hands-on role going forward, though.

2. The Yankees don't own the Thunder. The Devils owned the Titans.

3. The Thunder have been more successful and stable on-the-field than the Titans were.

4. Hockey is still kind-of a niche sport compared to baseball, especially now that Chambersburg's changed.

 

[Devils Dominion]

This for the locals and the transisents bring their ny loyalities with them. Same goes for Lakewood, plenty of Yankees fans as well as mets fans go despite the Phillies affliation.

Again, it's catering to a local market and not necessarily putting it in their face that you are the baby Devils.

Do you think attendance would decline if these teams changed their names to:

Lakewood Phillies
Trenton Yankees

 

[GhostofKenKlee]

Do you think attendance would decline if these teams changed their names to:

Lakewood Phillies
Trenton Yankees

I think the result would be different. I think those teams know better than to do that. Thunder moniker has survived two MLB teams and is successful, blueclaws attracts fans from all over the shore regardless of MLB loyalties.

 

[ThePSEGPowerPoster]

Do you think attendance would decline if these teams changed their names to:

Lakewood Phillies
Trenton Yankees

Possibly. I know SWB had trouble marketing the Yankees in PA. Fans of AAA affiliates are not necessarily fans of the parent team. Scranton-Wilkes Barre are now the Rail-Riders.

 

[Devils Dominion]

I think the result would be different. I think those teams know better than to do that. Thunder moniker has survived two MLB teams and is successful, blueclaws attracts fans from all over the shore regardless of MLB loyalties.

Yankees and Phillies get it.
Harris should be smarter than Vanderbeek with our affiliates going forward.

 

[GhostofKenKlee]

1. The Lamoriellos do things their way, for better or worse. Maybe new owners will play a more hands-on role going forward, though.

2. The Yankees don't own the Thunder. The Devils owned the Titans.

3. The Thunder have been more successful and stable on-the-field than the Titans were.

4. Hockey is still kind-of a niche sport compared to baseball, especially now that Chambersburg's changed.

Even though the Yankees don't own the team the affliation is there.

When the Devils bought the team, they wanted a total rebrand and gave up/aborted a season or two in. Don't know if that's Lou or it was Vanderbeek. You have to know your market, it may work out in upstate ny in smaller markets, in the end Trenton is a suburb to both Philly and NY commuters.

To their credit, I did Scorch on Philly tv and appeared all over SJ.

 

[GhostofKenKlee]

Possibly. I know SWB had trouble marketing the Yankees in PA. Fans of AAA affiliates are not necessarily fans of the parent team. Scranton-Wilkes Barre are now the Rail-Riders.

Reading are now the Fightin Phils and the Lehigh Valley team is the Iron Pigs.

 

[BadFella]

Possibly. I know SWB had trouble marketing the Yankees in PA. Fans of AAA affiliates are not necessarily fans of the parent team. Scranton-Wilkes Barre are now the Rail-Riders.

True. And sometimes they are. David Wright grew up a Mets fan in Virginia because the Tidewater/Norfolk team were affiliated with NYM, but they never called the team the Mets. They didn't have to.

 

[GhostofKenKlee]

Best example is the Hershey Bears, they have been affliated with several NHL teams over the years and have their own identity. Imagine if the devils bought them an messed with their goodwill and made them the Hershey Devils.

 

[Mory Schneideur*]

Atlantic City River Rats? lol

 

[TrufleShufle]

If they next season changed them back to The Albany River Rats, i guarantee they would have no more attendance issues in Albany. Or make it deep into the playoffs

Edit: also decent video on how Albany stands right now, i posted it in the other thread but it kinda falls in line with them possibly moving to AC.
http://blog.timesunion.com/hockey/vi...-albany/17216/

 

[BringBackTheRats]

If they next season changed them back to The Albany River Rats, i guarantee they would have no more attendance issues in Albany.

Best example is the Hershey Bears, they have been affliated with several NHL teams over the years and have their own identity. Imagine if the devils bought them an messed with their goodwill and made them the Hershey Devils.

This. You have to market to your audience. You can't go into a small city/town and take away the only team they've known for 20 years and expect there to be great results. If there had never been a team in Albany before I think you would have seen a better response. Instead, their egos and desire to brand the organization ruined what could have been a return to glory in Upstate NY.

I guess my question then is, will locals in AC be excited for any team they get? Or is management just hoping to sell more tickets to tourists?

 

[Devils Dominion]

It will fail in AC, I guarantee it.

Do you Albany guys really think that attendance would soar upwards if they brought back the Rats name?

I'm skeptical but sway my opinion.

 

[Mory Schneideur*]

It will fail in AC, I guarantee it.

Do you Albany guys really think that attendance would soar upwards if they brought back the Rats name?

I'm skeptical but sway my opinion.

Give away tickets as comps and stuff via the casinos. Its a different type of model but it could work. Also have slots on the concourse at the Convention Center. Make it feel like AC. Make they will go "all in" with this party poker theme and name the team after something to do with gambling.

 

[JerseyGuy276]

Personally, I wish they had moved the NHL Devils from East Rutherford to Trenton rather than to Newark, as Trenton being the capital city and in the center is more accessible for a pan-Jersey team than any other city.

Trenton is the terminal for the Northeast Corridor line to North Jersey/Manhattan, as well as the terminal for SEPTA to Philadelphia, and the terminal for the River Line to Camden, which allows for transfers to the Atlantic City line at Pennsauken.

What? No. Just no. Almost every NJT line runs through Newark Penn. If they had moved to Trenton, they lose fans from 5 rail lines.

 

[Devils Dominion]

Give away tickets as comps and stuff via the casinos. Its a different type of model but it could work. Also have slots on the concourse at the Convention Center. Make it feel like AC. Make they will go "all in" with this party poker theme and name the team after something to do with gambling.

Whether they stay in Albany, go to AC, Trenton or elsewhere, Harris and Lou should re-brand the franchise name next season and actually spend some marketing money.

Do their best to try to make it a popular team that fans want to support in that area.

The purpose of the AHL is player development, I get that, but the Devils have treated the fan experience of their AHL franchises with little care and poorly since the mid 90s Rats.

Pour some money into it and guess what, they will prob even generate more NJ Devils fans.
People and fans in Albany/Lowell/Trenton want to feel appreciated.

 

[BringBackTheRats]

Do you Albany guys really think that attendance would soar upwards if they brought back the Rats name?

I wouldn't use the word soar. I bet it would bring the average attendance back to right under the league average where it was in the early 2000's. Which is better than the current reality of the average dropping around 250 tickets per game every year since they came back.

Of course, woes with the branding and management aside, local economy plays a huge role in minor league ticket sales. A big point from earlier in the thread is public transportation. The people around here who have the money to spend $20 per ticket for minor league hockey also live in the suburbs 15-20 miles away from the arena without a good way to get there besides having someone DD (who wants to DD at a hockey game?). The public bus system here is something nightmares are made of and taxi service will cost you $30 one way from the burbs. But that is obviously not something the Devils can fix.

What they CAN do is market the team better along with running better promotions. They did great with that the first year and then either lost the budget for advertising or decided not to waste the money.

 

[BadFella]

What? No. Just no. Almost every NJT line runs through Newark Penn. If they had moved to Trenton, they lose fans from 5 rail lines.

Not even close to true.

AC line, River line, Bergen line, Main line, Pascack Valley line, Montclair line, Morristown line don't go through Newark Penn.

Admittedly, more lines run through Newark Penn than run through Trenton, but if the Devils want to be "New Jersey's team" as they are marketing themselves, it's not an easy sell to people who don't live in Northern New Jersey. As I mentioned previously, the only ways to get from the Atlantic City area to Newark via public transportation are:

Take a bus to NYC, then a bus or a train from NYC to Newark.
Take the train to Pennsauken; take another train to Trenton; take a third train to Newark.
Take the train to Philadelphia; take another train to Trenton; take a third train to Newark.

If you don't live in the Northeastern part of the state, it's kind-of a pain to get to Newark. Even if you drive. There have been times when I've gone where parking has been a nightmare, and then you've got the Turnpike.

 

[leftwing]

This. You have to market to your audience. You can't go into a small city/town and take away the only team they've known for 20 years and expect there to be great results. If there had never been a team in Albany before I think you would have seen a better response. Instead, their egos and desire to brand the organization ruined what could have been a return to glory in Upstate NY.

The Devils don't seem to be willing to do that. Other than the River Rats (who at least used the Devils color scheme), they've always wanted their minor league teams to toe the line. Utica Devils, Trenton Devils, Albany Devils, Lowell Devils...

This. Utica has a history of a minor league team that dates back 50+ years, the Comets. Devils threw it out when they came in for five years. Canucks came in this year and revived it with a nice crossbreed, the old name but a new logo with their colors. Attendance isn't great, but in line with their performance and probably pretty good given it all came together just three months before the season started. Attendance is higher than Albany.

So them being home to the A-Devils isn't much of a stretch. Look how oversaturated the upstate NY area is with minor league hockey teams. There's currently no AHL team within a 150 minute drive of Atlantic City.

Apples and oranges. Upstate NY is hockey. With a population less than NJ and an average income likely half it supports an NHL team and six AHL frnchises and produces enormous numbers of NHLers, including many top names. Hockey in NJ has come a long way in the last decade or so but it just doesn't have the base of upstate NY.

 

[BadFella]

Apples and oranges. Upstate NY is hockey. With a population less than NJ and an average income likely half it supports an NHL team and six AHL frnchises and produces enormous numbers of NHLers, including many top names.

As a Devils fan, I know all too well that you're right, as the Giontas and the captain of the Rags all hail from Rochester... and that's just one of many cities up there.

Hockey in NJ has come a long way in the last decade or so but it just doesn't have the base of upstate NY.

Which means it still has untapped potential for new fans, whereas the Upstate market is over-saturated. James Van Riemsdyk should be a Devils fan. Bobby Ryan should be a Devils fan. Neither of them are. Ryan's a Flyer fan. JVR is a Rangers fan. The Devils need to do a lot more work to take over this state.

 

[Marv4Life]

Not even close to true.

AC line, River line, Bergen line, Main line, Pascack Valley line, Montclair line, Morristown line don't go through Newark Penn.

Admittedly, more lines run through Newark Penn than run through Trenton, but if the Devils want to be "New Jersey's team" as they are marketing themselves, it's not an easy sell to people who don't live in Northern New Jersey. As I mentioned previously, the only ways to get from the Atlantic City area to Newark via public transportation are:

Take a bus to NYC, then a bus or a train from NYC to Newark.
Take the train to Pennsauken; take another train to Trenton; take a third train to Newark.
Take the train to Philadelphia; take another train to Trenton; take a third train to Newark.

If you don't live in the Northeastern part of the state, it's kind-of a pain to get to Newark. Even if you drive. There have been times when I've gone where parking has been a nightmare, and then you've got the Turnpike.

The lines in bold connect with lines going into Penn Station NWK whether it's another train or a light rail. There's also an NJT bus from AC to Newark though it is limited. Last I checked Mercer/Morris/counties and the Shore aren't in the the northeast and it's a one-two seat train ride.

Trenton is across the river from PA, so no.

 

[BadFella]

The lines in bold connect with lines going into Penn Station NWK whether it's another train or a light rail.

And if any of them connect with NEC (most of them do) - they connect with a line that goes to Trenton. The NEC line logo is the capital building in Trenton. Trenton is the terminal for the line.

There's also an NJT bus from AC to Newark though it is limited.

According to NJTransit.com, if you wanted to go to Atlantic City from Newark Penn Station's bus terminal, it tells you to take the 108 bus to New York City, and then get on the 319 to Atlantic City from the Port Authority Bus Terminal in Manhattan.

Trenton is across the river from PA, so no.

And Newark is across the river from NYC. Our building is like, 10 miles from Madison Square Garden. Compare that to 40 miles from downtown Trenton to where the Flyers play.

I don't think anyone is saying that they think the Devils will move to Central Jersey, or South Jersey, or whatever... I just said that I wish they had relocated from East Rutherford to Trenton, as it would have helped grow the fanbase more than the move to Newark has. Nearly half of Devils fans, according to a poll on this forum, live in Central NJ. Very few from South Jersey. When you consider how long it takes them to get to Newark, or worse, when we played at the Meadowlands, you can hardly blame them. Trenton is conveniently located, is what I was getting at.

 

[Marv4Life]

And if any of them connect with NEC (most of them do) - they connect with a line that goes to Trenton. The NEC line logo is the capital building in Trenton. Trenton is the terminal for the line.


According to NJTransit.com, if you wanted to go to Atlantic City from Newark Penn Station's bus terminal, it tells you to take the 108 bus to New York City, and then get on the 319 to Atlantic City from the Port Authority Bus Terminal in Manhattan.



And Newark is across the river from NYC. Our building is like, 10 miles from Madison Square Garden. Compare that to 40 miles from downtown Trenton to where the Flyers play.

I don't think anyone is saying that they think the Devils will move to Central Jersey, or South Jersey, or whatever... I just said that I wish they had relocated from East Rutherford to Trenton, as it would have helped grow the fanbase more than the move to Newark has. Nearly half of Devils fans, according to a poll on this forum, live in Central NJ. Very few from South Jersey. When you consider how long it takes them to get to Newark, or worse, when we played at the Meadowlands, you can hardly blame them. Trenton is conveniently located, is what I was getting at.

Yeah A line, not multiple lines. Only one NJT rail line goes there. And if that line shuts down then what? At least with the Rock you have more options not limited to driving. You got the River Line too but that serves a VERY limited Devils fan pop compared to the rest of the state, many whom live near a rail line with service to Penn Station, and don't only live towards Trenton.

The 319 also runs limited service to NPS. It's on the site.

On topic, they should have preseason games there or even Trenton. The Rock never draws for these type of games anyways so it's not gonna hurt them to host these games in other venues for Sept.