Post-Game Talk: The Assassination of Don Henderson by the Coward Dennis Wideman

[Anglesmith]

Does anyone know how the text message came to light? Like, did the teammate make it public?

Subpoena'd.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Does anyone know how the text message came to light? Like, did the teammate make it public?

Clause in the CBA which allowed Bettman to obtain Widemans text/phone records.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Clause in the CBA which allowed Bettman to obtain Widemans text/phone records.

That's such BS!

 

[Lunatik]

Does anyone know how the text message came to light? Like, did the teammate make it public?

They said it was subpoenaed but I don't know how they can legally subpoena text message records from 4 days after the event in question. Seems really suspect to me.

 

[Lunatik]

Clause in the CBA which allowed Bettman to obtain Widemans text/phone records.

I think the NHLPA will file a grievance on this since he isn't using that power to determine guilt or innocence, but rather to say he isn't taking responsibility for his actions; seems very close to an abuse of power to me.

 

[mouser]

Does anyone know how the text message came to light? Like, did the teammate make it public?

In an arbitration hearing* like this both sides can make discovery requests of the other that can be used to support their case in the hearing. Apparently the NHL requested text messages sent by Wideman under some defined set of conditions. Almost certainly the PA requested internal emails from the NHL discussing the original suspension decision or other communications related to it. The arbitrator (Bettman) has the authority to decide whether or not to grant discovery requests to each side, though in expedited timelines like this its likely the NHL and PA agreed to each others discovery requests without needing a ruling by Bettman.

The text from Wideman is supposedly from immediately after his original hearing in New York on Feb 2nd. It wouldn't "prove" anything, but seems to be included in support of the NHL's position that Wideman wasn't remorseful.

* The Bettman hearing is an arbitration hearing with Bettman acting as the arbitrator. If the PA follows through with their declaration of appealing then it will be another arbitration hearing heard by the CBA's Independent Arbitrator.

 

[Lunatik]

In an arbitration hearing* like this both sides can make discovery requests of the other that can be used to support their case in the hearing. Apparently the NHL requested text messages sent by Wideman under some defined set of conditions. Almost certainly the PA requested internal emails from the NHL discussing the original suspension decision or other communications related to it. The arbitrator (Bettman) has the authority to decide whether or not to grant discovery requests to each side, though in expedited timelines like this its likely the NHL and PA agreed to each others discovery requests without needing a ruling by Bettman.

The text from Wideman is supposedly from immediately after his original hearing in New York on Feb 2nd. It wouldn't "prove" anything, but seems to be included in support of the NHL's position that Wideman wasn't remorseful.

* The Bettman hearing is an arbitration hearing with Bettman acting as the arbitrator. If the PA follows through with their declaration of appealing then it will be another arbitration hearing heard by the CBA's Independent Arbitrator.

I don't think you can point to one text and say he wasn't remorseful, especially after a hearing where many believe the officials union decided to play hardball.

It's the same reason why pretty much every Flames fan in the world knew Bettman wasn't going to reduce the length of the suspension, because he didn't want to upset the officials union. Pissing off the PA is one thing when you know you won't have a strike or lockout for a while, but I think the Refs only have a year or 2 left on their CBA

 

[Anglesmith]

Being resentful about the hearing process =/= not being remorseful about the hit. Pretty poor justification there. Has an air of grasping at straws, but that's to be expected. I did not expect a reasonable result from anyone other than the arbitrator.

 

[Lunatik]

Being resentful about the hearing process =/= not being remorseful about the hit. Pretty poor justification there. Has an air of grasping at straws, but that's to be expected. I did not expect a reasonable result from anyone other than the arbitrator.

IMO they have abused this entire process. This decision should have been made in time for the independent arbitrator to hear the case prior to Wideman missing his 6th game, now they are finally getting there after he has served 8 games and it seems unlikely that the arbitrator will have a ruling before game 10.

 

[mouser]

I don't think you can point to one text and say he wasn't remorseful, especially after a hearing where many believe the officials union decided to play hardball.

It's the same reason why pretty much every Flames fan in the world knew Bettman wasn't going to reduce the length of the suspension, because he didn't want to upset the officials union. Pissing off the PA is one thing when you know you won't have a strike or lockout for a while, but I think the Refs only have a year or 2 left on their CBA

I'm not personally endorsing whether the text means he isn't remorseful, I was observing the NHL probably included it in support of their conclusion he wasn't remorseful.

fwiw, all of Wideman's texts that were responsive to the discovery requests could have been presented in the hearing, and the PA would have had the opportunity to counter any arguments made by the NHL as to their significance. While we only see the one text mentioned in the ruling, it's entirely possible other texts (by Wideman or others) were presented and used in support of both the NHL and PA's positions.

IMO they have abused this entire process. This decision should have been made in time for the independent arbitrator to hear the case prior to Wideman missing his 6th game, now they are finally getting there after he has served 8 games and it seems unlikely that the arbitrator will have a ruling before game 10.

IMO it's impossible to form a educated opinion on that without knowing all the work that went into the arbitration hearing process. The delay between Wideman's initial hearing and the hearing by Bettman was almost certainly not the NHL dragging its feet--both sides lawyers need time to exchange their legal arguments, agree on discovery, depose witnesses, and exchange final arguments all prior to the actual hearing taking place.

 

[Lunatik]

I'm not personally endorsing whether the text means he isn't remorseful, I was observing the NHL probably included it in support of their conclusion he wasn't remorseful.

fwiw, all of Wideman's texts that were responsive to the discovery requests could have been presented in the hearing, and the PA would have had the opportunity to counter any arguments made by the NHL as to their significance. While we only see the one text mentioned in the ruling, it's entirely possible other texts (by Wideman or others) were presented and used in support of both the NHL and PA's positions.



IMO it's impossible to form a educated opinion on that without knowing all the work that went into the arbitration hearing process. The delay between Wideman's initial hearing and the hearing by Bettman was almost certainly not the NHL dragging its feet--both sides lawyers need time to exchange their legal arguments, agree on discovery, depose witnesses, and exchange final arguments all prior to the actual hearing taking place.

I just don't see how the NHL can offer 3rd party arbitration on a suspension of 6 or more games and then not have everything done in time for the arbitrator to rule before the 6th game. Honestly I don't even know how that would be legal, especially in this case when the NHLPA is not fighting for a reduction in the suspension length but to have it rescinded completely.

But you are right we do not know what the NHL and NHLPA agreed to in regards to these delays. But I think one thing that is certain is if it is the NHL dragging their feet, then the PA will be filing a grievance and will look into potential legal action.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Bettman invaded Widemans privacy, that was just plain sick

 

[KrejciMVP]

Clause in the CBA which allowed Bettman to obtain Widemans text/phone records.

Hide your phones NHL players! This is outrageous.

 

[mouser]

I just don't see how the NHL can offer 3rd party arbitration on a suspension of 6 or more games and then not have everything done in time for the arbitrator to rule before the 6th game. Honestly I don't even know how that would be legal, especially in this case when the NHLPA is not fighting for a reduction in the suspension length but to have it rescinded completely.

But you are right we do not know what the NHL and NHLPA agreed to in regards to these delays. But I think one thing that is certain is if it is the NHL dragging their feet, then the PA will be filing a grievance and will look into potential legal action.

If Wideman were to win in front of the neutral arbitrator and have his suspension eliminated or reduced to less then games served he would still get all the backpay that would have otherwise been forfeited. From the PA labor point of view that's more important then games missed.

 

[Rangediddy]

If Wideman were to win in front of the neutral arbitrator and have his suspension eliminated or reduced to less then games served he would still get all the backpay that would have otherwise been forfeited. From the PA labor point of view that's more important then games missed.

But from the Flames organization standpoint, they'll make it about the games missed. With him out of the lineup, they lost 4 out of the 8 games. The can cite negative attention drawn to the team, coaches and players, media pressures, and any other distractions relating to this circus as contributing to lost game while in the playoff hunt.

With a lack of precedent, the NHL has completely mishandled this whole process. This will rear it ugly head come time to renegotiate the CBA.

 

[moon*]

Hide your phones NHL players! This is outrageous.

Why is it outrageous? They agreed to it in the CBA. It is their own fault.

And Wideman avoids the whole thing by not intentionally hitting a ref.

Don't do something stupid and you have no reason to have the issue come up at all.

 

[moon*]

But from the Flames organization standpoint, they'll make it about the games missed. With him out of the lineup, they lost 4 out of the 8 games. The can cite negative attention drawn to the team, coaches and players, media pressures, and any other distractions relating to this circus as contributing to lost game while in the playoff hunt.

With a lack of precedent, the NHL has completely mishandled this whole process. This will rear it ugly head come time to renegotiate the CBA.

The NHL has handled the whole thing fine. Not sure how the Flames can blame the NHL for things that resulted from their own players actions.

The NHL didn't bring negative attention to the team that was Wideman. The NHL didn't hit the ref making Wideman miss games, again that was Wideman. The circus was created 100% by Wideman so if the Flames want to blame anyone (and judging by their and Wideman's behaviour in this whole thing looking to blame others is exactly what they want to do) they should blame Wideman.

As to the losing 4 games out of 8. That a. seems pretty similar to their record with Wideman in the line-up and b. the team is much better with him out of the line-up.

 

[ERYX]

Jets fan coming in peace.

I've skimmed much of this thread and seen some back-and-forth about biased or unbiased opinions on this incident. For what it's worth, if anything I'd normally be biased against Calgary if anything, but I think Wideman's treatment has been unfair.

I don't see how they can say this was intentional. I've watched the clip several times trying to figure out what happened. To me, Wideman clearly looks concussed an "out of it" as he skates to the bench. It seems like he doesn't even realise the ref is there until the last second and then puts up his arms in reaction, and continues to the bench as if his mind didn't even compute what just happened. His facial expression on the bench right after is more like a "what the heck just happened" versus an "I'm pissed and that ref got what he deserved".

At worst he should have received a minimal suspension. Even if he did intentionally hit the ref, his concussed state and prior clean track record should have mitigated the "sentence".

Just my two cents.

TLDR: from a Jet's fan perspective, I don't think Wideman did this on purpose and I think the league's response has been unfair.

 

[Rangediddy]

The NHL has handled the whole thing fine. Not sure how the Flames can blame the NHL for things that resulted from their own players actions.

The NHL didn't bring negative attention to the team that was Wideman. The NHL didn't hit the ref making Wideman miss games, again that was Wideman. The circus was created 100% by Wideman so if the Flames want to blame anyone (and judging by their and Wideman's behaviour in this whole thing looking to blame others is exactly what they want to do) they should blame Wideman.

As to the losing 4 games out of 8. That a. seems pretty similar to their record with Wideman in the line-up and b. the team is much better with him out of the line-up.

You're not really getting this whole process apparently. It's gone beyond his guilt or innocence. The way Bettman has handled the appeal, making Wideman's private texts public, discrediting medical testimony. It's a farce and I hope the arbitrator completely rescinds the suspension only to make the NHL look like bigger jokes than they already are!

Frankly, I don't care if Wideman is in the line up or not. He's not the reason we win games and not the reason we lose them either, but you better believe the Flames organization will use everything they can against the league if an arbitrator lowers or rescinds the suspension.

 

[mouser]

But from the Flames organization standpoint, they'll make it about the games missed. With him out of the lineup, they lost 4 out of the 8 games. The can cite negative attention drawn to the team, coaches and players, media pressures, and any other distractions relating to this circus as contributing to lost game while in the playoff hunt.

With a lack of precedent, the NHL has completely mishandled this whole process. This will rear it ugly head come time to renegotiate the CBA.

I know this is going to be unpopular, but the Flames organization has no standing in the CBA to grieve the situation. I suppose they could ask for some compensation by the NHL's board of governors (i.e. the other NHL owners).

I'm not sure what you're referring to on "lack of precedent". Players have been suspended in the past for 20 games involving physical contact with an official. It's even codified in the NHL rule book. The hearings and appeal followed the standard CBA processes . About the only thing there's lack of precedent for is the argument raised by Wideman's side that he's not at fault due to the results of a concussion. What changes would you suggest the PA should fight for in the next CBA?

 

[moon*]

You're not really getting this whole process apparently. It's gone beyond his guilt or innocence. The way Bettman has handled the appeal, making Wideman's private texts public, discrediting medical testimony. It's a farce and I hope the arbitrator completely rescinds the suspension only to make the NHL look like bigger jokes than they already are!

Frankly, I don't care if Wideman is in the line up or not. He's not the reason we win games and not the reason we lose them either, but you better believe the Flames organization will use everything they can against the league if an arbitrator lowers or rescinds the suspension.

I am getting it fine I just don't have the same issues with it that you do.

I am fine that Bettman released the text messages. There is nothing wrong at all with him doing it. The CBA allows it and Wideman was the idiot who made the ridiculous texts.

The medical testimony should be questioned when every single indication was that there was no concussion and it was only when they thought they could get out of it that the concussion was brought up. As a Flames fan I hope that Bettman ignores it altogether as it only seems like bad things will come of it if they look into it further.

Wideman got 20 games and deserved the 20 games. The only farce in this whole thing is Wideman and the PA trying to not only get the suspension reduced but their asinine claim that it should have been zero games.

Hopefully the arbitrator tells Wideman and the PA to shove it and eff off.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

Also, re-reading the transcripts of the appeal a second time the other thing that comes to mind is that Wideman should be pretty pissed with the NHLPA. They brought a bunch of experts who didn't even arrange to make a phone call with Flames medical staff.

Whole thing is a gong show and I'll be happy when the whole thing is done and over with, one way or another.

 

[Rangediddy]

I know this is going to be unpopular, but the Flames organization has no standing in the CBA to grieve the situation. I suppose they could ask for some compensation by the NHL's board of governors (i.e. the other NHL owners).

I'm not sure what you're referring to on "lack of precedent". Players have been suspended in the past for 20 games involving physical contact with an official. It's even codified in the NHL rule book. The hearings and appeal followed the standard CBA processes . About the only thing there's lack of precedent for is the argument raised by Wideman's side that he's not at fault due to the results of a concussion. What changes would you suggest the PA should fight for in the next CBA?

The precedence that he's appealing to a 3rd party arbitrator after already sitting out 8 games. It's possible the arbitrator completely rescinds the 20 game suspension to 0. If that's the case, this whole process took away playing time from Wideman that may not have been necessary. I understand that there is still a process to follow so it's not rational to think that this could all be resolved before the next game is played after the incident, but Bettman and the league took their sweet time to decide on the appeal (when it's pretty clear he was never going to change it in the first place).

Setting a timeline on how long the appeal process must take would be what I suggest to add in the next CBA.

 

[KrejciMVP]

You're not really getting this whole process apparently. It's gone beyond his guilt or innocence. The way Bettman has handled the appeal, making Wideman's private texts public, discrediting medical testimony. It's a farce and I hope the arbitrator completely rescinds the suspension only to make the NHL look like bigger jokes than they already are!

Frankly, I don't care if Wideman is in the line up or not. He's not the reason we win games and not the reason we lose them either, but you better believe the Flames organization will use everything they can against the league if an arbitrator lowers or rescinds the suspension.

great post sir, good to see people see right through this.

 

[Anglesmith]

And Wideman avoids the whole thing by not intentionally hitting a ref.

That's clearly not true, given this process has been able to continue even with uncertainty over whether it was intentional or accidental. So what this shows is even if you never hit a ref intentionally, this process and the outcome could still befall you.