The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXXIII

[The Optimist]

What is the point in argueing about Volpatti VS Weise?

There really shouldn't be any point because Weise is so obviously better and he's only 24 playing in basically his second season in the NHL. That's right, he proved to AV he could handle tough minutes last year as a rookie.

Even highly touted guys like Tanev and Schroeder don't have those responsibilities.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

It doesn't. If you can make a 4th line that can play against 2nd or 3rd lines or even be a shutdown lines then you come out ahead. The main reason crash and bang players are preferred on the 4th line is because there's really not enough depth on most teams' rosters to have a 4th line that can contribute in other ways. You hope for them to contribute by wearing the other team out, bringing some energy and not costing you on the scoresheet. If you can actually build a 4th line that can hit AND play some meaningful hockey, you're making the life of your other 3 lines much easier.

Volpatti plays a better "energy" game than Weise does IMO. Which is usually the 4th line's job. Weise can play that but not as well as Volpatti, but Weise can play a smarter more defensively responsible game due to his speed, which is why he can move up and play 3rd line minutes.

That's what I'm getting at. With Kassian still learning to be consistant and Booth only just coming back AV is looking for a more versitile lineup, while if Kassian was in one of his hot streaks and Booth was back and in full stride, I could definately see Volpatti getting the nod over Weise in a game like tonight where emotions could get high and you'll want the better grinder, fighter in the lineup.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Volpatti plays a better "energy" game than Weise does IMO. Which is usually the 4th line's job. Weise can play that but not as well as Volpatti, but Weise can play a smarter more defensively responsible game due to his speed, which is why he can move up and play 3rd line minutes.

That's what I'm getting at. With Kassian still learning to be consistant and Booth only just coming back AV is looking for a more versitile lineup, while if Kassian was in one of his hot streaks and Booth was back and in full stride, I could definately see Volpatti getting the nod over Weise in a game like tonight where emotions could get high and you'll want the better grinder, fighter in the lineup.

According to the Sun, it's Weise in tonight with Lapierre and Booth on the 4th line. Volpatti is sitting.
The big advantage with Weise, IMO is his ability to kill penalties and move up in the lineup for the odd shift. The one issue I still see with him though is that he needs to realize his role better and play a simpler game. When he tries to do too much he gets in trouble. What worked in the Dutch league often doesn't work here.

 

[PhilMick]

According to the Sun, it's Weise in tonight with Lapierre and Booth on the 4th line. Volpatti is sitting.
The big advantage with Weise, IMO is his ability to kill penalties and move up in the lineup for the odd shift. The one issue I still see with him though is that he needs to realize his role better and play a simpler game. When he tries to do too much he gets in trouble. What worked in the Dutch league often doesn't work here.

Uggh, I feel bad, makes me wish we were scratching Weise just so AV would stop doing that.

 

[Scurr]

Seems the coach disagrees with you considering he's more comfortable moving Weise up the line-up, plays him on the PK here and there, and overall trusts him with more ice-time in each game. Weise has actually found himself out on the ice when we're protecting a lead or chasing it in the last 5 minutes, Volpatti hasn't.

He's the better player so he's been provided with the better opportunity. I like Weise and I thought he started the season really well and deserved a look on the 3rd line. I haven't been impressed with his contribution since. Weise stays in the lineup for now because it leaves Booth on the left side. If Weise doesn't up his physical play I think we see Volpatti back in the lineup quickly.

What has Volpatti been better at than Weise other than fighting? Volpatti is often the guy who is responsible for his line not being able to get out of the defensive zone because he doesn't have the puck skills to get the puck out at the blueline. Weise skated miles the first few games of the season and has been the guy Vigneault moves up the lineup when he needs someone in the top-9 or on the PK.

Hockey isn't a skills competition, but not being able to score at lower levels is a pretty good indication that you don't have the skills to be a useful hockey player (beyond fighting) at the NHL level. Similarly, a player with a good track record at lower levels is more likely to have the skills necessary to be an NHL player. If fighting was banned tomorrow, there would be absolutely no dispute which of these two players is a better player.

The idea that any player isn't on the team to put up points is ludicrous. Teams might be willing to place less weight on the value of points in order to get someone who can fight/hit in the lineup, but it's not irrelevant.

I agree with you about better players generally contributing more. I don't think that has been the case with Weise recently. Volpatti has done a better job filling the role (Thanks Bleach). The Canucks are clearly looking for a physical element from that line more so than scoring. I agree that everyone on the team should be charged with creating shots and putting up points, Weise hasn't been better in that regard either. His talent isn't showing up on the ice right now imo.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Uggh, I feel bad, makes me wish we were scratching Weise just so AV would stop doing that.

I'll only start feeling bad if I see him playing the point on the powerplay like Byron Ritchie
Look at it positively and think how far we've come!

 

[arsmaster*]

What has Volpatti been better at than Weise other than fighting? Volpatti is often the guy who is responsible for his line not being able to get out of the defensive zone because he doesn't have the puck skills to get the puck out at the blueline. Weise skated miles the first few games of the season and has been the guy Vigneault moves up the lineup when he needs someone in the top-9 or on the PK.

the underlined is so true.

Volpatti is better for the role of 'fighter' that is all.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Can't believe some of you are going back to Weise's Crosby-like numbers in the Netherlands league. Thats like me going to play a season against a bunch of Atom kids and then bragging about my numbers...

 

[PhilMick]

I'll only start feeling bad if I see him playing the point on the powerplay like Byron Ritchie
Look at it positively and think how far we've come!

Good attitude!

 

[Alflives*]

Columbus needs a goalie. The Canucks need a top pair D with skill and an 'edge'. It's a obvious trade:

? for ? You fill in the names.

 

[arsmaster*]

Can't believe some of you are going back to Weise's Crosby-like numbers in the Netherlands league. Thats like me going to play a season against a bunch of Atom kids and then bragging about my numbers...

You mean one of us.

Nobody cares about the dutch league, the stats that matter were junior stats and AHL stats where Weise played really well and produced.

He's 3 years younger and already showed substantially more at every level.


And to touch on Scurr's point about the 4th line providing energy, I don't for a second believe that is what the 4th line's role is. Tiranis touched on it, it's to take the play from the defensive end to the offensive end. Weise is a better player at doing this, than a lot of us have given him credit for.

 

[dave babych returns]

Columbus needs a goalie. The Canucks need a top pair D with skill and an 'edge'. It's a obvious trade:

? for ? You fill in the names.

Just curious, how many times do you have to say it on here for it to become true?

 

[Scurr]

And to touch on Scurr's point about the 4th line providing energy, I don't for a second believe that is what the 4th line's role is. Tiranis touched on it, it's to take the play from the defensive end to the offensive end. Weise is a better player at doing this, than a lot of us have given him credit for.

Andrew Ebbett is a much better hockey player than Volpatti. If this was the case I think we'd see him in the lineup.

I don't think Gillis throws three physical guys on the 4th line because he can't find anyone else. They want/expect that out of that line. They also want them to be able to play a regular shift and get the puck going in the right direction. Weise is the better player and should be better in that regard but I don't think that has been the case recently. Others don't see it that way, agree to disagree.

 

[PhilMick]

Columbus needs a goalie. The Canucks need a top pair D with skill and an 'edge'. It's a obvious trade:

? for ? You fill in the names.

I hate myself for this, but I'm curious: Can JJ play the right side?

 

[opendoor]

Guys like Volpatti seem to end up being pretty much useless by the end of the year and during the playoffs. They've been playing balls to the wall all year just to try and keep their spot in the lineup and once everyone starts playing physically they have nothing else to fall back on.

He's played much better so far than I thought he would, but I'm not holding my breath that he's going to be able to remain effective for the rest of the year and into the playoffs.

 

[Tiranis]

It's not an accident that Jack Johnson has been the worst +/- player on every single roster he has been on for the past 5 years. The notion that the Canucks should even consider acquiring him is laughable. The only redeeming thing for the Blue Jackets is that they might end up with a Top 5/10 pick out of that trade.

 

[Scurr]

It's not an accident that Jack Johnson has been the worst +/- player on every single roster he has been on for the past 5 years. The notion that the Canucks should even consider acquiring him is laughable. The only redeeming thing for the Blue Jackets is that they might end up with a Top 5/10 pick out of that trade.

 

[Tiranis]

Here's some notable accomplishments:

-12 in 11/12 (in 61 games) when the 2nd worst D was -7 in 82

-21 in 10/11 when 2nd worst D was +1

-15 in 09/10 when 2nd worst D was -4

He's once again "leading" the D in +/- this season.

He was the worst Corsi player on the Kings last season. 3rd worst the year prior (but with only forwards with better competition behind him).

 

[Nuckles]

A lot of people hate Edler and Bieksa's defensive play. Just wait until you see Johnson.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

According to the Sun, it's Weise in tonight with Lapierre and Booth on the 4th line. Volpatti is sitting.
The big advantage with Weise, IMO is his ability to kill penalties and move up in the lineup for the odd shift. The one issue I still see with him though is that he needs to realize his role better and play a simpler game. When he tries to do too much he gets in trouble. What worked in the Dutch league often doesn't work here.

Ugh, yes I know. I wasn't saying Volpatti should get the start, that sentence needs to go with the sentence before and taken within the context of the whole post. With what AV has been doing with Weise of late and the situation the Canucks are in with Kesler and Booth just coming back from injuries, I can totally see why he gets the start over Volpatti.

 

[Verviticus]

jack johnson is literally worse than aaron rome. i wouldn't take him for free even for a single year on a $0 contract

 

[me2]

Lookup LA's revival, timing wasn't a coincidence. JJ leaves and LA become SC capable in a day, Carter wasn't doing it.

 

[vanuck]

I'm not going to turn this into a statistics debate, but they've been proven to be pretty damn accurate. Denying that they mean something is just stupid at this point.

There's a reason teams invest into advanced stats more and more (some teams even try to track them for lower levels now). There's a reason Gillis acquires players who have good advanced stats.

Do you know which teams are doing this btw? Hopefully we're one of them...

So, according the Vancouver Sun, Volpatti sits tonight and Weise, Lapierre and Booth are the 4th line.

Good - as it should be. I reckon Weise sees playoff games before Volpatti does.

 

[Canucker]

Guys like Volpatti seem to end up being pretty much useless by the end of the year and during the playoffs. They've been playing balls to the wall all year just to try and keep their spot in the lineup and once everyone starts playing physically they have nothing else to fall back on.

He's played much better so far than I thought he would, but I'm not holding my breath that he's going to be able to remain effective for the rest of the year and into the playoffs.

It's not like Wiese has much more to fall back on either. People ooh and ahhh over his Dutch numbers and laud the fact AV uses him occasionally on the PK, but really, has he shown any offensive ability so far? No. Does anyone really think he should be out there killing penalties if we have a healthy lineup? I certainly don't. Has he ever had a fight where he wasn't getting his face mashed? Not that I can recall. Does he hit with any real consistency or authority? No, not really.

When the playoffs roll around I'll take Volpatti on my 4th line before Wiese simply because he plays with purpose. He will run over people and he'll set a tone, if the gloves need to be dropped (not as common in the playoffs, but it still occurs) he'll go, and there is a better chance he wins than Wiese. I think he could be a guy like Steve Webb...a heavy duty bang and crasher.

 

[The Big Foot]

Completely OT, but speaking of ex-Kings and plus/minus, did you know that in 93-94 Gretzky put up 130 pts in 81 games, on a team that had made the finals the year before, and somehow managed to finish -25?? Pretty crazy line. Playing on a team with Hrudey in goal (not elite but probably top 15 at the time), and on defense Zhitnik, Blake, Sydor, and Huddy. Kings finished with 66 pts, 5 pts behind the expansion Mighty Ducks. Followed that up with a 82P, -34 pace in the shortened lockout season, then traded the next season. Over his last 3 seasons there his pace was 111pts in 82 games with a brutal +/- of -22. Nice work Gretzky. At least the Kings got Patrice Tardif, Craig Johnson and Roman Vopat for him.