The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXXIII

[dave babych returns]

Weise isn't a very good player, he's just better than Volpatti and Ebbett and so on.

Ideally we'd have a guy who was like some kind of combination of Weise and Volpatti's strengths.. a guy who could play a regular shift in mostly defensive scenarios against decent opponents and drive the play in the right direction, who also happened to have a mean streak and the ability to stand in with most guys at or around his weight class.

Too bad those guys get the kind of money we're giving Chris Higgins and Mason Raymond in the free agent market. I don't see teams getting to anxious to unload them at the trade deadline either.

 

[PhilMick]

Gillis doesn't load up, he makes under the radar acquisitions at the right time. See Higgins and Lapierre. It's the same with thee young players that show promise, that should do better in different situations. You think the team needs drastic additions, I don't. There's a difference in how we see his team. Clearly.


Weise is a better skater, offensive forchecker, passer, stick handler etc... Than Volpatti. I wouldn't confuse Volpatti being better at his role as being the better player. He isn't.

By how much? Does he really bring that much more?

 

[Tiranis]

Weise hits not much less than Volpatti and can actually cycle the puck in the offensive zone. He's also reliable in the defensive zone and can PK. When somebody from our Top 9 gets moved down on that 4th line, having Weise there will make a lot more sense.

Volpatti can crash and bang, but that's really it.

By how much? Does he really bring that much more?

Yes.

 

[Scurr]

Weise is the much better player but hasn't been any more effective. I like Weise's talent but he better figure out how to bring more on the ice or he's going to be the odd man out imo.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Weise hits not much less than Volpatti and can actually cycle the puck in the offensive zone. He's also reliable in the defensive zone and can PK. When somebody from our Top 9 gets moved down on that 4th line, having Weise there will make a lot more sense.

Volpatti can crash and bang, but that's really it.



Yes.

Volpatti has better possession and corsi numbers this year. Small sample size, but I think people are writing him off a bit too much.

Just to be clear, I don't want either of these guys playing regularly in the playoffs.

 

[pitseleh]

By how much? Does he really bring that much more?

Well, there's very likely a reason that Volpatti has only scored more than 18 points in a season once at any level - BCHL, NCAA, AHL, or NHL - and that one season was as a 24 year old college senior in a relatively poor college conference. Weise was a ~.75 PPG player as a 21/22 year old in the AHL. Players don't score at such disparate rates at lower levels based on small differences in skill level.

Volpatti has better possession and corsi numbers this year. Small sample size, but I think people are writing him off a bit too much.

Obviously due to a difference in circumstances - Weise has actually played up the lineup on a number of occasions against decent competition. Volpatti goes up against fourth liners almost exclusively.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I don't think there's a great deal of difference between Wiese and Volpatti although clearly Wiese has shown offensive upside in other leagues. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the one area where Gillis upgrades with a more veteran player around the trade deadline. When the whole team is healthy it's not that big an issue having one of Weise/Volpatti on the fourth line but the bigger concern is when the inevitable injuries happen and one of them, likely Weise, has to move up.
I'd also like to go into the playoffs with a fourth line that can chip in the odd goal as we saw with LA and Boston.
Max with a goal and two assists is a fine 4th liner. But he needs someone who can help out.

 

[arsmaster*]

By how much? Does he really bring that much more?

Weise has a foundation of production at all levels. The only time Volpatti has ever contributed in a scoring manner, was his senior season at Brown.

I like Volpatti a lot, but Weise is by far the better player, has better career numbers, can do a lot more on the ice and is 3 years younger.

Weise is the type of guy you can sign to a multi-year minimum salary contract, and have him contribute. Winning teams need these players.

I could see Weise being a very good third line NHLer in a couple years...similar to how Jannik Hansen has developed.

 

[Scurr]

Well, there's very likely a reason that Volpatti has only scored more than 18 points in a season once at any level - BCHL, NCAA, AHL, or NHL - and that one season was as a 24 year old college senior in a relatively poor college conference. Weise was a ~.75 PPG player as a 21/22 year old in the AHL. Players don't score at such disparate rates at lower levels based on small differences in skill level.

Hockey isn't a skills competition and these guys aren't on the team to put up points. Weise may be the much better player but he hasn't played like it.

 

[Tiranis]

Hockey isn't a skills competition and these guys aren't on the team to put up points. Weise may be the much better player but he hasn't played like it.

Seems the coach disagrees with you considering he's more comfortable moving Weise up the line-up, plays him on the PK here and there, and overall trusts him with more ice-time in each game. Weise has actually found himself out on the ice when we're protecting a lead or chasing it in the last 5 minutes, Volpatti hasn't.

 

[arsmaster*]

Volpatti has better possession and corsi numbers this year. Small sample size, but I think people are writing him off a bit too much.

Just to be clear, I don't want either of these guys playing regularly in the playoffs.

This is why I hate these numbers.

Volpatti plays against other 4th lines FFS, Weise was playing a substantially different role before Kesler came back.

3rd line RW is a bit more of a responsibility than 10 shifts against 4th lines IMO.

 

[Tiranis]

This is why I hate these numbers.

What you hate is y2k using them without providing context. The numbers are fine. (Last year's numbers also back-up Weise being the much better player as he was handed exceptionally tough minutes and actually did fairly well.)

 

[arsmaster*]

What you hate is y2k using them without providing context. The numbers are fine.

I think people care about them way to much around here.

I agree, they have there place, but context is needed, and even when you contextualize it, I trust my eyes more.

 

[pitseleh]

Hockey isn't a skills competition and these guys aren't on the team to put up points. Weise may be the much better player but he hasn't played like it.

What has Volpatti been better at than Weise other than fighting? Volpatti is often the guy who is responsible for his line not being able to get out of the defensive zone because he doesn't have the puck skills to get the puck out at the blueline. Weise skated miles the first few games of the season and has been the guy Vigneault moves up the lineup when he needs someone in the top-9 or on the PK.

Hockey isn't a skills competition, but not being able to score at lower levels is a pretty good indication that you don't have the skills to be a useful hockey player (beyond fighting) at the NHL level. Similarly, a player with a good track record at lower levels is more likely to have the skills necessary to be an NHL player. If fighting was banned tomorrow, there would be absolutely no dispute which of these two players is a better player.

The idea that any player isn't on the team to put up points is ludicrous. Teams might be willing to place less weight on the value of points in order to get someone who can fight/hit in the lineup, but it's not irrelevant.

 

[Tiranis]

I think people care about them way to much around here.

I agree, they have there place, but context is needed, and even when you contextualize it, I trust my eyes more.

I'm not going to turn this into a statistics debate, but they've been proven to be pretty damn accurate. Denying that they mean something is just stupid at this point.

There's a reason teams invest into advanced stats more and more (some teams even try to track them for lower levels now). There's a reason Gillis acquires players who have good advanced stats.

 

[arsmaster*]

I'm not going to turn this into a statistics debate, but they've been proven to be pretty damn accurate. Denying that they mean something is just stupid at this point.

There's a reason teams invest into advanced stats more and more (some teams even try to track them for lower levels now). There's a reason Gillis acquires players who have good advanced stats.

Since we don't want to get in a stupid statistics debate, I wont.

This will be my last post about it.

I don't think I've once denied they mean something, not once. What I will point out is in my bolded above....some people such as yourself, opendoor, pitseleh among others weight these metrics more than I do.

Plain and simple, they mean something....clearly they mean more to you than they do to me, I'm a firm believer in my eyes, and if the stats help me explain what my eyes see....great!

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

This is why I hate these numbers.

Volpatti plays against other 4th lines FFS, Weise was playing a substantially different role before Kesler came back.

3rd line RW is a bit more of a responsibility than 10 shifts against 4th lines IMO.

Volpatti is a better 4th liner than Weise, but Weise can move up and play 3rd line minutes more effectively than Volpatti can, if that makes any sense, lol.

 

[Nuckles]

Has Volpatti ever scored a goal like this?


Weise >>>> Volpatti
AINEC

 

[Tiranis]

Volpatti is a better 4th liner than Weise, but Weise can move up and play 3rd line minutes more effectively than Volpatti can, if that makes any sense, lol.

It doesn't. If you can make a 4th line that can play against 2nd or 3rd lines or even be a shutdown lines then you come out ahead. The main reason crash and bang players are preferred on the 4th line is because there's really not enough depth on most teams' rosters to have a 4th line that can contribute in other ways. You hope for them to contribute by wearing the other team out, bringing some energy and not costing you on the scoresheet. If you can actually build a 4th line that can hit AND play some meaningful hockey, you're making the life of your other 3 lines much easier.

 

[y2kcanucks]

It doesn't. If you can make a 4th line that can play against 2nd or 3rd lines or even be a shutdown lines then you come out ahead. The main reason crash and bang players are preferred on the 4th line is because there's really not enough depth on most teams' rosters to have a 4th line that can contribute in other ways. You hope for them to contribute by wearing the other team out, bringing some energy and not costing you on the scoresheet. If you can actually build a 4th line that can hit AND play some meaningful hockey, you're making the life of your other 3 lines much easier.

Hence why I've suggested upgrading on Weise.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Since we don't want to get in a stupid statistics debate, I wont.

This will be my last post about it.

I don't think I've once denied they mean something, not once. What I will point out is in my bolded above....some people such as yourself, opendoor, pitseleh among others weight these metrics more than I do.

Plain and simple, they mean something....clearly they mean more to you than they do to me, I'm a firm believer in my eyes, and if the stats help me explain what my eyes see....great!

I agree. While every team uses advanced stats they also use scouts to verify the stats. Gillis has Vancouver scout players they may be interested in at both the NHL and the draft level. Stats only go so far.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

What is the point in argueing about Volpatti VS Weise? Neither of them have nhl talent - but at least they're not hesitant to drop the gloves for this team.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

So, according the Vancouver Sun, Volpatti sits tonight and Weise, Lapierre and Booth are the 4th line.

 

[Nuckles]

What is the point in argueing about Volpatti VS Weise? Neither of them have nhl talent - but at least they're not hesitant to drop the gloves for this team.

You think way too highly of 4th liners if you think neither them are NHL players.

There's a reason why Weise dominated that dutch league. It takes some talent to play on the 4th line of an NHL team.

 

[PhilMick]

What is the point in argueing about Volpatti VS Weise? Neither of them have nhl talent - but at least they're not hesitant to drop the gloves for this team.

I think mostly it's due to wanting to see Volpatti punchasize someone tonight. But I can appreciated that he could use some rest, guy's been going hard.