The Armchair GM Thread - Part CVIII

[Skirbs1011]

Would you guys trade:

Sedins @ 25-50%

For

Fiala
Wilson
Ellis
1st 2016

If they threw in Jack Dougherty aswell

 

[Canadian Canuck]

I'm not reading much into that. Benning's goal of this team is to re-tool while surrounding promising prospects with solid vets (vets of which that are current/former elite players, or are known for their great character).

If Benning trades the twins, he is contradicting his own philosophy, and you instantly go into rebuild mode (and by trading the twins, it would be a horribly misguided approach to a rebuild - see Florida Panthers of yesteryear).

Benning contradicting himself is nothing new.

Wanted to trade a 2015 2nd instead of 2016 2nd for Baertschi because the draft is "deeper" but only would accept a 2015 2nd from San Jose instead of 2016 2nd but then goes on to accept a 2016 2nd from Anaheim that will probably be later....

 

[Skirbs1011]

If Benning trades the twins, he is contradicting his own philosophy, and you instantly go into rebuild mode (and by trading the twins, it would be a horribly misguided approach to a rebuild - see Florida Panthers of yesteryear).

Can you explain how trading the Sedins would compare to Florida??

 

[biturbo19]

Another thing that really pisses me off is letting Richardson walk for nothing. This guy was the glue of our bottom six, showed up when he was needed and had surprising skill for a bottom six center. I would go so far as to argue his presence helped insult Horvat a good deal.

Why did this guy get let go without another word. I would argue we let our two most useful depth players walk for nothing and trading our young power forward for worse than nothing.

Who's carrying the defensive duties down the middle next season? Its not going to be Sedin or Bonino and it better not be Horvat. So who does that leave?

We definitely still need a replacement/substitute for Richardson somewhere in the mix at Center.

But he walked because he wanted term that they didn't want to give him. It's not like they didn't bother talking with his agent and keeping the door open on that...but 3 years is at least 1 too many.

By 2017-18, at least one, if not hopefully BOTH of Cassels and McCann are going to be pushing for NHL roster spots. That'd be 2 years in the AHL for Cassels, and another year of Jrs plus an AHL season for McCann at that point. You hope those guys are close to NHL-ready if they're every going to be. In addition to Bo obviously, and Hank will still be around for another year.

There's a fine line between "insulating" these young prospects, and just cluttering up the openings with mediocre veterans. This is a team that is aiming to get gradually younger...adding a few new players every year. And plugging depth roles with a bunch of long-term contracts just doesn't really mesh with that goal. We've already got Dorsett as a "role player" on a long-term deal, for better or worse. At least he fills a role none of our "closest" prospects really do. I think McCann and Cassels if/when they find their way onto the roster, are going to be looking to fill pretty much the same role as Richardson. Hence the issue with extra term there.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Can you explain how trading the Sedins would compare to Florida??

Yes.

If you move the twins for a bunch of draft picks, prospects, etc., the Canucks will be a team full of young prospects and non-1st line veteran players (i.e. very similar to what the Florida Panthers were all these years).

The result of that would be putting these kids (or vets) into roles that they have no business being in at the current time. You have to let the kids grow, and gradually ease them into those roles.

Whether a team is rebuilding or retooling, you need to have franchise veteran superstars leading the way (like we have the twins). If this is not in place, then you will likely never maximize your prospects' potential.

 

[TARS]

The problem with trading the Sedins is that you will never get anywhere close to value. They're only going to waive to be moved together. And they're likely only able to be moved if we retain a significant portion of their salaries.

Look at the players who are regularly around them in the league leaders for scoring. Think of what you would have to give up to get one of those players. I don't think anybody is going to sell the farm to the degree it would take to acquire two top 15 scorers at reduced salary.

If they ever did get moved, the return would be appallingly low. The chances of it happening are right around 0 anyway, so the point is probably moot.

 

[Horse McHindu]

The only way that I would trade the twins (and no, it's not going to happen and so it's a moot point), was if we were getting Joe Thornton and Patrick Marleau in return (i.e. superstar vets that go up against opposing teams' top lines and top defensive pairings, so that guys like Horvat, Baertschi, etc. can develop properly).

I'd consider Eric and Jordan Staal as well since they are significantly younger, but again - this is all ridiculous talk.

Twins aren't going anywhere, nor should they. Only way I'd be open to that, is if Horvat proves himself worthy of being a #1 center this season (and as much as I love Horvat, I don't think he's quite there yet.........he will be eventually, but not now).

 

[Skirbs1011]

Yes.

If you move the twins for a bunch of draft picks, prospects, etc., the Canucks will be a team full of young prospects and non-1st line veteran players (i.e. very similar to what the Florida Panthers were all these years).

The result of that would be putting these kids (or vets) into roles that they have no business being in at the current time. You have to let the kids grow, and gradually ease them into those roles.

Whether a team is rebuilding or retooling, you need to have franchise veteran superstars leading the way (like we have the twins). If this is not in place, then you will likely never maximize your prospects' potential.

Well personally if a few crappy years whithout Veterans meant we would have a group of players like Kulikov, Bjugstad, Huberdeau, Barkov, Ekblad and Crouse to be the the core of the franchise to 10+ years i would do it.

No harm in trading the Sedins for picks and prospects, struggling for a few years and adding top end picks.

Florida is a good example, they had had some crappy times and now have a solid core of young NHL players, now they have gone out and surrounded those oyung players with the likes of Luongo, Jagr, Mitchell ect ect.

Vancouver will never win a Cup with the Sedins, so why not cash them in for prospects and picks to maybe better your chances in the future?

 

[y2kcanucks]

Would you guys trade:

Sedins @ 25-50%

For

Fiala
Wilson
Ellis
1st 2016

Easily. I think that would be an excellent trade for us. Would try to include Sbisa going back the other way as well though.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

Benning contradicting himself is nothing new.

Wanted to trade a 2015 2nd instead of 2016 2nd for Baertschi because the draft is "deeper" but only would accept a 2015 2nd from San Jose instead of 2016 2nd but then goes on to accept a 2016 2nd from Anaheim that will probably be later....

There are too many unknowns involved in that whole Bieksa trade situation to basically say that Benning contradicted himself with wanting a 2015 2nd in the Bieksa deal. Maybe they had their eye on a player who they wanted.

It's easy to call what happened a contradiction without understanding that there are details to what happened and why it happened that we will never know and sometimes those details are big enough to change how a GM will approach certain situations.

One of the most annoying parts of a lot of these discussions on here is that it's easy to go extreme with opinions and forget that there are way too many grey areas involved for black and white answers to be accurate.

 

[Reign Nateo]

Nashville is not about to add that much in salary...

 

[CanaFan]

I would trade the twins without hesitation because their value to this team over the next 3 years is 'capped' at making us competitive enough to just make or miss a playoff spot. Essentially 3 years of limbo. Yes they are probably good mentors for young kids in terms of work ethic and off-ice training but that has only so much value in my mind. And while I realize they would not return the haul we fans would like or expect, it will certainly not be nothing either (which is what it will be letting them play out their contract).

They've been great players and ambassadors to our city for 16 years now but I would be fine with moving on and honouring them with ROH and jersey retirements.

Let's just not delay this rebuild with mediocrity any more than we have to. There is nothing that kills my interest more than a team that you don't really care if it makes playoffs or not because you just know it can't compete with the teams that it will face.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Well personally if a few crappy years whithout Veterans meant we would have a group of players like Kulikov, Bjugstad, Huberdeau, Barkov, Ekblad and Crouse to be the the core of the franchise to 10+ years i would do it.

And with all of those excellent young players/prospects, exactly how many times has Florida made the playoffs over the past 5 years? 10 years?

The Oilers also had an excellent collection of young talent/prospect this past decade, and look where that has gotten them.

No harm in trading the Sedins for picks and prospects, struggling for a few years and adding top end picks.

The strategy could pan out if you land a legit generational player (i.e. Crosby, Toews, and perhaps McDavid), but far more times than not, teams attempting to employ this strategy miss the playoffs for years upon years on end, while destroying their young players/prospects' confidence. Islanders, Panthers, Oilers, are all poster boys for this failed model.

Florida is a good example, they had had some crappy times and now have a solid core of young NHL players, now they have gone out and surrounded those oyung players with the likes of Luongo, Jagr, Mitchell ect ect.

Time will tell with Florida, but they've almost never made the playoffs all these years. What is it? Like twice in 15 years?

Vancouver will never win a Cup with the Sedins, so why not cash them in for prospects and picks to maybe better your chances in the future?

Again - just because a team has a large number of good promising prospects, doesn't mean that the team has a solid future. Good promising prospects and young players need to be corralled and gradually eased into appropriate roles. If you have a Crosby, Toews, or a McDavid, then perhaps it's a different conversation, but more times than not, you absolutely CANNOT rush kids and put them into roles that they are too green for.

You need to have veteran superstar players to take the brunt, and to take the pressure from opposing top lines, opposing defenders, media, etc., etc.

As it relates to the Canucks - If Bo Horvat proves this year that he is worthy of being the team's top center, or anchoring the team's top line (just as the Sedin twins did during the 2005/2006 season), then yes, by all means, you can start entertaining options about trading the twins for prospects.

 

[Yammer]

I would trade the twins without hesitation because their value to this team over the next 3 years is 'capped' at making us competitive enough to just make or miss a playoff spot. Essentially 3 years of limbo. Yes they are probably good mentors for young kids in terms of work ethic and off-ice training but that has only so much value in my mind.

How much value?

There's the line of thought that Edmonton had, effectively, no mentors/productive NHLers ahead of their kids and left them to sink or swim, mostly sink, for the last howevermany years.

On the other hand, I would be very curious to see the result. Hoo boy. Full tankage in Vancouver. It would be interesting, at least.

 

[PM]

You guys are crazy if you think WeiBenning is going to get anything of value for the Sedins. Maybe a couple 2nd rounders and a few goons/cap-dumps.

 

[Horse McHindu]

I would trade the twins without hesitation because their value to this team over the next 3 years is 'capped' at making us competitive enough to just make or miss a playoff spot. Essentially 3 years of limbo.

The problem with trading the twins for picks/prospects, is that there is no one worthy enough to play on the top line and shelter the kids (from the kids themselves taking on positions that they are too green for - that's the Edmonton Oiler model).

Recognizing the need for veterans to help corral the kids, you end up drastically overpaying in the free agent market for two reasons:

1) To make the cap floor
2) The players have all the bargaining power.

And that right there is how you land your David Bolland's of the world at 5.5 million per season - that's the Florida Panthers model.

Bottom line?

You absolutely do NOT trade the twins unless

1) Bo Horvat takes yet another step this season and proves himself worthy of anchoring the top line - much like Hank and Dan proved in 2005/2006.

2) You are getting equivalent veteran star presence in return (i.e. twins for Joe Thornton/Patrick Marleau).

 

[y2kcanucks]

The problem with trading the twins for picks/prospects, is that there is no one worthy enough to play on the top line and shelter the kids (from the kids themselves taking on positions that they are too green for - that's the Edmonton Oiler model).

Recognizing the need for veterans to help corral the kids, you end up drastically overpaying in the free agent market for two reasons:

1) To make the cap floor
2) The players have all the bargaining power.

And that right there is how you land your David Bolland's of the world at 5.5 million per season - that's the Florida Panthers model.

Bottom line?

You absolutely do NOT trade the twins unless

1) Bo Horvat takes yet another step this season and proves himself worthy of anchoring the top line - much like Hank and Dan proved in 2005/2006.

2) You are getting equivalent veteran star presence in return (i.e. twins for Joe Thornton/Patrick Marleau).

If you trade the Sedins then you give top line minutes to our other veterans.

Assuming the Nashville trade that the poster above proposed, our lineup would look something like this:

Wilson-Bonino-Vrbata
Higgins-Horvat-Burrows
Baertschi-Vey-Virtanen
Prust-McCann-Dorsett
Kenins

Ugly, yes, but it's a clear rebuild.

 

[Skirbs1011]

And with all of those excellent young players/prospects, exactly how many times has Florida made the playoffs over the past 5 years? 10 years?

The Oilers also had an excellent collection of young talent/prospect this past decade, and look where that has gotten them.

Again - just because a team has a large number of good promising prospects, doesn't mean that the team has a solid future. Good promising prospects and young players need to be corralled and gradually eased into appropriate roles. If you have a Crosby, Toews, or a McDavid, then perhaps it's a different conversation, but more times than not, you absolutely CANNOT rush kids and put them into roles that they are too green for.

You need to have veteran superstar players to take the brunt, and to take the pressure from opposing top lines, opposing defenders, media, etc., etc.

1. Who cares how many times they have made the playoffs, I would rather be primed for 10+ years of a young core, then being Vancouver and trying to help an aging core get Bounced in the first round.

2. As for Edmonton there Management has been as incompetent as ares is now. Look at there young roster now, look at what new management is doing. Surrounding the core pieces in Eberle, Hall, Yakupov, RNH and Mcdavid with players like Sekera, Talbot, Gryba, Korpikoski, Letestu, and Reinhart. Filling the holes that previous GM was not doing, and they are primed to be a better team then Vancouver for many years.

3. And like I said before its about balancing young prospects. You dont need Elite superstars on a roster with young kids. You need the right Mentors and right players that fill the necessary roles a team needs. Look at Calgary, who was to say Gaudreau-Monahan-Hudler would be a top line leading that team all year and into the playoffs?? Whos to say next year Virtanen-Horvat-Vrbata couldnt do the same?? We dont know how young players are going to play.

But its still a fact that all theses teams like Edmonton, Calgary and Florida that went through tough times are 10x better off now than Vancouver, we are putting off the inevitable while everyone around us is transitioning. There is no light at the end of the tunnel for the Canucks if they dont start cashing in on players like Vrbata, Hamhuis and the Sedins, because next year 2 will walk for free and in 3 seasons the Sedins will walk and we will be left scratching are heads wondering what the hell we are going to do. Not saying the Sedins need to be traded ASAP, just before its to late

 

[fancouver]

If you trade the Sedins then you give top line minutes to our other veterans.

Assuming the Nashville trade that the poster above proposed, our lineup would look something like this:

Wilson-Bonino-Vrbata
Higgins-Horvat-Burrows
Baertschi-Vey-Virtanen
Prust-McCann-Dorsett
Kenins

Ugly, yes, but it's a clear rebuild.

That is an environment you want to avoid. That's not a roster where you can develop good young players. Every night is going to be a struggle and guys like Vey or McCann are likely to throw in the towel than to compete. Imagine being owned on every board battle, faceoff (outside of Horvat). You need veterans to guide the team. Vrbata is the only proven top 6 there and surely not enough.

 

[y2kcanucks]

That is an environment you want to avoid. That's not a roster where you can develop good young players. Every night is going to be a struggle and guys like Vey or McCann are likely to throw in the towel than to compete. Imagine being owned on every board battle, faceoff (outside of Horvat). You need veterans to guide the team. Vrbata is the only proven top 6 there and surely not enough.

Ideally we could find an upgrade on Bonino at C. If we still had Ryan Kesler I think it would have worked perfectly fine.

 

[Horse McHindu]

If you trade the Sedins then you give top line minutes to our other veterans.

Assuming the Nashville trade that the poster above proposed, our lineup would look something like this:

Wilson-Bonino-Vrbata
Higgins-Horvat-Burrows
Baertschi-Vey-Virtanen
Prust-McCann-Dorsett
Kenins

Ugly, yes, but it's a clear rebuild.

#FloridaPanthers.

We'll have to agree to disagree here I think.

Absolutely no way Bonino should be your #1 center, or even a #2 center on a good team. The best way to maximize prospects/young players on your team, is to have them be lead by example from current/former elite stars.

You think it's just coincidence that all of those past Detroit, Colorado, and New Jersey teams "magically" got good prospects out of thin air? I don't think so. These teams' prospects reached the levels that they did, because they had mentors and leaders such as Yzerman, Lidstrom, Shanahan, Sakic, Forsberg, Roy, Stevens, Niedermayer, Brodeur, etc. leading and mentoring the way.

Even at current with Chicago - Kane, Toews, Keith, Hossa, Seabrook, etc., have all had monumental impacts on guys like Saad, Leddy, Teravainen, etc.

Same thing with LA - guys like Kopitar, Doughty, etc., have all likely had a large degree of impact on the likes of Toffoli, Pearson, etc.

Pure rebuild's always come with very significant risk. For every Chicago Blackhawks team out there that eventually builds a winner/dynasty through a rebuild (and in Chicago's case, they were almost irrelevant for about a DECADE before drafting Patrick Kane), there are at least 3-5x more examples of teams that slip into a deep dark hole (i.e. Edmonton, New York Islanders, Florida, etc., etc.).

Trade the twins if you must, but only if Horvat takes another leap in his development this season (i.e. proves that he's worthy and capable of anchoring the top line, just as the twins supplanted the WCE back in 2005/2006).

 

[Canucker]

If you trade the Sedins then you give top line minutes to our other veterans.

Assuming the Nashville trade that the poster above proposed, our lineup would look something like this:

Wilson-Bonino-Vrbata
Higgins-Horvat-Burrows
Baertschi-Vey-Virtanen
Prust-McCann-Dorsett
Kenins

Ugly, yes, but it's a clear rebuild.

Does this lineup even make the cap floor?

 

[Horse McHindu]

#FloridaPanthers.

We'll have to agree to disagree here I think.

Absolutely no way Bonino should be your #1 center, or even a #2 center on a good team. The best way to maximize prospects/young players on your team, is to have them be lead by example from current/former elite stars.

You think it's just coincidence that all of those past Detroit, Colorado, and New Jersey teams "magically" got good prospects out of thin air? I don't think so. These teams' prospects reached the levels that they did, because they had mentors and leaders such as Yzerman, Lidstrom, Shanahan, Sakic, Forsberg, Roy, Stevens, Niedermayer, Brodeur, etc. leading and mentoring the way.

Even at current with Chicago - Kane, Toews, Keith, Hossa, Seabrook, etc., have all had monumental impacts on guys like Saad, Leddy, Teravainen, etc.

Same thing with LA - guys like Kopitar, Doughty, etc., have all likely had a large degree of impact on the likes of Toffoli, Pearson, etc.

Pure rebuild's always come with very significant risk. For every Chicago Blackhawks team out there that eventually builds a winner/dynasty through a rebuild (and in Chicago's case, they were almost irrelevant for about a DECADE before drafting Patrick Kane), there are at least 3-5x more examples of teams that slip into a deep dark hole (i.e. Edmonton, New York Islanders, Florida, etc., etc.).

Trade the twins if you must, but only if Horvat takes another leap in his development this season (i.e. proves that he's worthy and capable of anchoring the top line, just as the twins supplanted the WCE back in 2005/2006).

Even with non-cup winning teams like a San Jose for instance. Guys like Logan Couture, Marc Edward Vlasic, Tomas Hertl, etc. have all greatly benefitted from the presence of Thornton, Boyle, and Marleau. These young guys have been able to develop slowly, consistently, and gradually, while Thornton and Marleau have taken on the top opposing forwards, defensemen, etc., along with off-ice stuff such as media pressure, etc.

Detroit since 2009 = same thing. Nyquist, Tatar, etc., have all greatly benefitted from the presences' of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, etc.

 

[y2kcanucks]

#FloridaPanthers.

We'll have to agree to disagree here I think.

Absolutely no way Bonino should be your #1 center, or even a #2 center on a good team. The best way to maximize prospects/young players on your team, is to have them be lead by example from current/former elite stars.

You think it's just coincidence that all of those past Detroit, Colorado, and New Jersey teams "magically" got good prospects out of thin air? I don't think so. These teams' prospects reached the levels that they did, because they had mentors and leaders such as Yzerman, Lidstrom, Shanahan, Sakic, Forsberg, Roy, Stevens, Niedermayer, Brodeur, etc. leading and mentoring the way.

Even at current with Chicago - Kane, Toews, Keith, Hossa, Seabrook, etc., have all had monumental impacts on guys like Saad, Leddy, Teravainen, etc.

Same thing with LA - guys like Kopitar, Doughty, etc., have all likely had a large degree of impact on the likes of Toffoli, Pearson, etc.

Pure rebuild's always come with very significant risk. For every Chicago Blackhawks team out there that eventually builds a winner/dynasty through a rebuild (and in Chicago's case, they were almost irrelevant for about a DECADE before drafting Patrick Kane), there are at least 3-5x more examples of teams that slip into a deep dark hole (i.e. Edmonton, New York Islanders, Florida, etc., etc.).

Trade the twins if you must, but only if Horvat takes another leap in his development this season (i.e. proves that he's worthy and capable of anchoring the top line, just as the twins supplanted the WCE back in 2005/2006).

Those teams got their top prospects because they went through years of hardships and rebuilding. That's how they got their stars to begin with.

We had an opportunity to develop players, but unlike Chicago who gave Saad a chance to play with Toews and Kane, we don't create roster spots for our prospects. We send them down to "overcook" for some stupid reason, even if they look like they deserve a shot. Even this year we have a veteran team and no spots for prospects to come into the lineup up front.

Doing what the Canucks are doing is going to turn the team into the Flames/Leafs of old, where we end up having mediocre season after mediocre season. With our recent management purges, I'm also starting to get concerned that we're heading for Oilers-laughing stock territory anyway.

 

[Skirbs1011]

That is an environment you want to avoid. That's not a roster where you can develop good young players. Every night is going to be a struggle and guys like Vey or McCann are likely to throw in the towel than to compete. Imagine being owned on every board battle, faceoff (outside of Horvat). You need veterans to guide the team. Vrbata is the only proven top 6 there and surely not enough.

If you did trade them it would be at a deadline, where you bring up a sheltered line up from the Minors (guys like Grenier, Jones, Jensen ect) and just make it through the rest of the season tanking for a top pick.

If they go say for 50% retained, Hamhuis and Vrbata will be gone as well. Going into the next season the D core is pretty much intact, Re-sign Bartkowski maybe and Corrado and Clendenning both become full time NHLers.

Forward is thin, hope players like Cassels and Gaunce who are more physically mature make the jump. They would have around 20million in Cap Space to sign the right Role players to fill the Holes.


xxx-xxx-Baertschi
Higgins-Horvat-Burrows
Hansen-Bonino-Shinkaurak
Dorsett-Gaunce-Kennins
Cassels

Edler-Tanev
Bartkowski-Corrado
Clendenning-Sbisa


Your Virtually have the same roster as the year before, with 20 Million to fill 2 holes, Benning already wants Lucic, so Unfortunatley we can count on 6 million going there, but with a good group of F/A next year, With the Money we have I am sure we can Lure in a good Center for the top line.