The Armchair GM Thread - Part CVIII

[Skirbs1011]

Do you know what you have DONE!?!?!? thats the new SBISA-BIEKSA

Not really, Bartkowski can skate, and is more reliable in his own end. Bieksa is a horrible skater and chases in his own end. I watch a ton of boston games and personally think they gave up on Bartkowski for no apparent reason.

If ppl are honestly saying Bartkowski is are new Bieksa they really should do some research and not just check hockeydb for stats

 

[biturbo19]

Not to mention, Oilers were drafting in some of the worst drafts in ages, they got really unlucky.

They finally caught a break with mcdavid.

It's absolutely hysterical that this myth persists.


It doesn't matter how "bad" the drafts the Oilers picked 1st in were, they owned the top of the draft and had their pick of literally any player in the entire draft all of those times. If it takes "getting lucky" with your MULTIPLE 1st overall picks to build a halfway decent team...then we, and pretty much everyone else is completely hooped.

 

[fancouver]

It's absolutely hysterical that this myth persists.


It doesn't matter how "bad" the drafts the Oilers picked 1st in were, they owned the top of the draft and had their pick of literally any player in the entire draft all of those times. If it takes "getting lucky" with your MULTIPLE 1st overall picks to build a halfway decent team...then we, and pretty much everyone else is completely hooped.

Much of Oilers' problems is the lack of leadership surrounding that group. If they had a guy like Hamhuis or the Sedins, their rebuild would have been a lot faster.

But not Andrew Ference....

 

[Horse McHindu]

Not really, Bartkowski can skate, and is more reliable in his own end. Bieksa is a horrible skater and chases in his own end. I watch a ton of boston games and personally think they gave up on Bartkowski for no apparent reason.

If ppl are honestly saying Bartkowski is are new Bieksa they really should do some research and not just check hockeydb for stats

Skirbs,

Buddy,

I'm not sure if you got the memo or not, but around these parts, everything Benning does is "idiotic" and "Corky Thatcher-esque." After the Lack and Kassian moves, Benning is George Bush in the 604 area code and hockeysfuture.com/Canucks.

Benning signing a player with upside and dare I say promise?!?

Fuhgettaboutit!

(sorry mods, I'm only kidding)

 

[biturbo19]

Much of Oilers' problems is the lack of leadership surrounding that group. If they had a guy like Hamhuis or the Sedins, their rebuild would have been a lot faster.

But not Andrew Ference....

I think that's pretty much it.

But it's not even just the lack of "outgoing really old vets", it was the completely lack of a bridge to the team.

They went basically Cup Finals--->Bad Team--->Trade everyone away--->Throw new rookies in every year.

That "first wave" of their rebuild, the Gagner, Cogliano, Nilsson, etc. demographic just didn't really work out quite right there, were thrown to the wolves too soon and frankly just weren't that great. But there was no transition at all. It was just..."Cup Finals Loss", straight to "Tank Nation". None of their young players who are in that 25-27 "young veterans" demographic to help usher things along while having a clue what it takes to win in the league. So they tried to "buy" their "leadership" on the UFA market with mercenaries and blowhard depth players. And there you've got it...a losing culture, and that's a deep pit to climb out of.

Of course, hasn't helped that they've had absolutely no ability to identify and develop defencemen whatsoever along the way.


But it's where i really hope that we can get guys like Bo some more of these playoff games, tight playoff chases, alongside a pair of legitimately outstanding role models like the Twins who have come within a game of being there. Get some of the other young forwards like Baertschi, McCann, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Virtanen, whoever makes it there...and get some of our young defencemen some games alongside a consummate pro like Hamhuis. Real leadership and "Culture" aren't something you just buy up one day when you think you've done enough "tanking" by hiring a washed up 3rd pairing defenceman and a pseudo-enforcer to slot in alongside a collection of 21 other rookies and young players who have never been anywhere themselves.

For me at least, that's what i take away from the whole, "winning is a habit" spiel. And that part of it at least, i totally agree with. Ideally...you want your own homegrown young leadership core to start taking shape before you hit those real awful years of top-5 draft picks that are inevitably coming. To have some of our current youth down in the trenches alongside the quality remnants of the "old core" for last year's run, hopefully another kick or two at the can...i think that's invaluable to the future of this team. And if you come out the other end with a Captain Bo who has seen what it takes with guys like the Sedins right in the heat of battle...that's what you want. Not some washed up greybeard mercenary free agent from afar who saunters in to the locker room full of doe-eyed youth with tales of "the olden days" to tell 'em how it's done. Much better to show, and learn by doing, for our leaders of the future.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Much of Oilers' problems is the lack of leadership surrounding that group. If they had a guy like Hamhuis or the Sedins, their rebuild would have been a lot faster.

But not Andrew Ference....

Yep, you nailed it.

-It's one thing to fill your roster with pube-less 18-22 year old kids and expect them to take on roles that they are too green for (i.e. Edmonton Oilers)

-It's only slightly more intelligent (but still astronomically stupid) to surround said pube-less 18-22 year old kids with medicore vets (i.e. Scottie Upshall, Dave Bolland, etc.). That's the Florida Panthers model.

Truly intelligent organizations that are re-tooling, surround emerging prospects with current/former elite vets that have been at that level, and also vets with true leadership and character. Detroit and San Jose are examples of teams that fit that model.

There's a reason why teams like Detroit and San Jose haven't traded away the likes of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Thornton, and Marleau despite the fact that both these teams could *easily* "sell high" on these players.

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

Yep, you nailed it.

-It's one thing to fill your roster with pube-less 18-22 year old kids and expect them to take on roles that they are too green for (i.e. Edmonton Oilers)

-It's only slightly more intelligent (but still astronomically stupid) to surround said pube-less 18-22 year old kids with medicore vets (i.e. Scottie Upshall, Dave Bolland, etc.). That's the Florida Panthers model.

Truly intelligent organizations that are re-tooling, surround emerging prospects with current/former elite vets that have been at that level, and also vets with true leadership and character. Detroit and San Jose are examples of teams that fit that model.

There's a reason why teams like Detroit and San Jose haven't traded away the likes of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Thornton, and Marleau despite the fact that both these teams could *easily* "sell high" on these players.

lol...Considering San Jose has been trying to trade Thornton and Marleau for years now. They won't waive. Wilson wanted to tear it down.

 

[dave babych returns]

Yeah SJ is a terrible example.

Wilson's been trying to make things uncomfortable for his vets virtually since they signed their last extensions.

And if you believe the talk about why he wanted Bieksa (to further reduce their influence in the room), oh boy.

 

[Skirbs1011]

Skirbs,

Buddy,

I'm not sure if you got the memo or not, but around these parts, everything Benning does is "idiotic" and "Corky Thatcher-esque." After the Lack and Kassian moves, Benning is George Bush in the 604 area code and hockeysfuture.com/Canucks.

Benning signing a player with upside and dare I say promise?!?

Fuhgettaboutit!

(sorry mods, I'm only kidding)

I understand no one likes the moves Benning makes, and therefore any move is a bad one.

But i am not naive and can see when a good deal is done. Benning sucks and I am honestly just tired of reading about him, the guy needs to be fired plain in simple but its beating a dead horse at this point

I just think fans are not really knowledgeable of Bartkowski and already dismissing him because its a Benning Signing, personally I think this could turn out to be the only positive signing Benning makes

 

[Bobby Digital]

I think that's pretty much it.

But it's not even just the lack of "outgoing really old vets", it was the completely lack of a bridge to the team.

They went basically Cup Finals--->Bad Team--->Trade everyone away--->Throw new rookies in every year.

That "first wave" of their rebuild, the Gagner, Cogliano, Nilsson, etc. demographic just didn't really work out quite right there, were thrown to the wolves too soon and frankly just weren't that great. But there was no transition at all. It was just..."Cup Finals Loss", straight to "Tank Nation". None of their young players who are in that 25-27 "young veterans" demographic to help usher things along while having a clue what it takes to win in the league. So they tried to "buy" their "leadership" on the UFA market with mercenaries and blowhard depth players. And there you've got it...a losing culture, and that's a deep pit to climb out of.

Of course, hasn't helped that they've had absolutely no ability to identify and develop defencemen whatsoever along the way.


But it's where i really hope that we can get guys like Bo some more of these playoff games, tight playoff chases, alongside a pair of legitimately outstanding role models like the Twins who have come within a game of being there. Get some of the other young forwards like Baertschi, McCann, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Virtanen, whoever makes it there...and get some of our young defencemen some games alongside a consummate pro like Hamhuis. Real leadership and "Culture" aren't something you just buy up one day when you think you've done enough "tanking" by hiring a washed up 3rd pairing defenceman and a pseudo-enforcer to slot in alongside a collection of 21 other rookies and young players who have never been anywhere themselves.

For me at least, that's what i take away from the whole, "winning is a habit" spiel. And that part of it at least, i totally agree with. Ideally...you want your own homegrown young leadership core to start taking shape before you hit those real awful years of top-5 draft picks that are inevitably coming. To have some of our current youth down in the trenches alongside the quality remnants of the "old core" for last year's run, hopefully another kick or two at the can...i think that's invaluable to the future of this team. And if you come out the other end with a Captain Bo who has seen what it takes with guys like the Sedins right in the heat of battle...that's what you want. Not some washed up greybeard mercenary free agent from afar who saunters in to the locker room full of doe-eyed youth with tales of "the olden days" to tell 'em how it's done. Much better to show, and learn by doing, for our leaders of the future.

I think everyone can agree that you can't have a team full of rookies. However I think what Buffalo's doing is the best blueprint. Sell your assets. Acquire a boatload of picks/prospects. Draft in the top 10 for 2-3 years hopefully 2 of those years being top 5. Then swing trades for younger players like Evander Kane, Ryan O'Reilly or Brandon Saad with boatload of assets you. Also swing a trade or sign a couple veteran players whove been to the Stanley Cup (Sharp, Jagr, Iginla). Now all the sudden you have a well rounded team. This plan is easily do able as long as you have assets to trade and capspace to burn.

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Bartkowski will be great. Very underrated player. Just didn't shown on the stat sheet for him.

 

[Skirbs1011]

Had a discussion with a couple co-workers over the topic of the rebuild. We all agreed we should rebuild and trade assets, but we disagreed on the return. They were adamant that all deals had to be 1st rounders + mid range prospect and wouldn't budge because they wanted 1st rnd picks. My pitch was i would rather take 2nd round picks(teams would be more likely to move a 2nd than 1st.) and a higher end prospect.

So for the sake of the argument I will use Vrbata to Montreal and Hamhuis to Dallas at the deadline both players 50% retained

would you rather do:
Vrbata to Montreal for Dalton Thrower and 1st...Or...Noah Juulsen and a 2nd.


Hamhuis to Dallas for Niklas Hansson and a 1st....or....Julius Honka and a 2nd.


Like I said they were Adamant we do the deals for the 1sts where I was opposed to taking the better prospect and the later pick

 

[PhilMick]

Had a discussion with a couple co-workers over the topic of the rebuild. We all agreed we should rebuild and trade assets, but we disagreed on the return. They were adamant that all deals had to be 1st rounders + mid range prospect and wouldn't budge because they wanted 1st rnd picks. My pitch was i would rather take 2nd round picks(teams would be more likely to move a 2nd than 1st.) and a higher end prospect.

So for the sake of the argument I will use Vrbata to Montreal and Hamhuis to Dallas at the deadline both players 50% retained

would you rather do:
Vrbata to Montreal for Dalton Thrower and 1st...Or...Noah Juulsen and a 2nd.


Hamhuis to Dallas for Niklas Hansson and a 1st....or....Julius Honka and a 2nd.


Like I said they were Adamant we do the deals for the 1sts where I was opposed to taking the better prospect and the later pick

I'd do Thrower and the 1st, and Honka and the 2nd. I loooove Honka and Thrower.

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

Bartkowski will be great. Very underrated player. Just didn't shown on the stat sheet for him.

TBH the Bartkowski and Weber signings are moves I'm very happy with. I think they extracted some good value for the mid-bottom end of the roster.

But it's frustrating because it makes the Sbisa deal seem sillier. Look what you can get for the third pair that's not old, still has some upside and costs <2m.

 

[biturbo19]

Had a discussion with a couple co-workers over the topic of the rebuild. We all agreed we should rebuild and trade assets, but we disagreed on the return. They were adamant that all deals had to be 1st rounders + mid range prospect and wouldn't budge because they wanted 1st rnd picks. My pitch was i would rather take 2nd round picks(teams would be more likely to move a 2nd than 1st.) and a higher end prospect.

So for the sake of the argument I will use Vrbata to Montreal and Hamhuis to Dallas at the deadline both players 50% retained

would you rather do:
Vrbata to Montreal for Dalton Thrower and 1st...Or...Noah Juulsen and a 2nd.


Hamhuis to Dallas for Niklas Hansson and a 1st....or....Julius Honka and a 2nd.


Like I said they were Adamant we do the deals for the 1sts where I was opposed to taking the better prospect and the later pick

I think realistically, the 1st + fringe prospect type deals are far more palatable for the other teams, and thus more likely to happen. For whatever that weighs into the equation.

Teams aren't usually that into trading their freshly drafted 1st round prospects for old, expiring contract players like we'd potentially have to offer in this "rebuild" scenario.

Whether it's endowment effect, or the development time they've put into the prospects, or just the certainty and concrete quality of already drafted prospects (the devil you know sort of thing)...teams tend to value their "recent 1st round prospects" more than a "future 1st round pick"...pretty much right on through to them becoming young NHLers, unless they really struggle making the jump to the Pro game, at which point they don't really have much value and are better off just hanging on to them anyway, so it's a moot point really.


I can't imagine either of those teams would even entertain those example deals for "top prospects".

 

[Nuckles]

On mobile so I can't link, but Pap retweeted that Daniel Sedin's house is for sale. Could be nothing, could be Benning clearing out the old guard

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

Yeah SJ is a terrible example.

Wilson's been trying to make things uncomfortable for his vets virtually since they signed their last extensions.

And if you believe the talk about why he wanted Bieksa (to further reduce their influence in the room), oh boy.

SJ was a good example until like 3 seasons ago when Wilson really started trying to shake things up in an uncomfortable way.

What really bothers me about this organization is expending assets to get more character/leadership etc from the 4th line. Paying over 5m for Dorsett and Prust's intangibles seems dumb when they've got a core of good citizen type veterans already.

The whole advantage of continuity with veteran leaders (Sedins, Hamhuis etc) when they are post-prime is that you should be able to integrate new players and young players more easily without overpaying for veterans on the bottom half of the roster.

 

[Skirbs1011]

I think realistically, the 1st + fringe prospect type deals are far more palatable for the other teams, and thus more likely to happen. For whatever that weighs into the equation.

Teams aren't usually that into trading their freshly drafted 1st round prospects for old, expiring contract players like we'd potentially have to offer in this "rebuild" scenario.

Whether it's endowment effect, or the development time they've put into the prospects, or just the certainty and concrete quality of already drafted prospects (the devil you know sort of thing)...teams tend to value their "recent 1st round prospects" more than a "future 1st round pick"...pretty much right on through to them becoming young NHLers, unless they really struggle making the jump to the Pro game, at which point they don't really have much value and are better off just hanging on to them anyway, so it's a moot point really.


I can't imagine either of those teams would even entertain those example deals for "top prospects".

Yeah you kinda went to far, and like I said sake of the argument I would use those as examples.

Mainly was getting and Opinion on would you rather have a 1st and a prospect with a low chance of panning out or a higher prospect and a 2nd.

Wasnt really looking for the trades to be evaluated, nor was i looking for a counter of opinions on what other teams would likey be offering...Just more or less if the situation was there what would you rather do.

 

[biturbo19]

Yeah you kinda went to far, and like I said sake of the argument I would use those as examples.

Mainly was getting and Opinion on would you rather have a 1st and a prospect with a low chance of panning out or a higher prospect and a 2nd.

Wasnt really looking for the trades to be evaluated, nor was i looking for a counter of opinions on what other teams would likey be offering...Just more or less if the situation was there what would you rather do.

I mean, as a general principal though, that's my answer to the general question posed.

I guess i'd prefer the 1st + fringe prospect deals, because those are ones that might actually be able to happen.

I'd love to pillage other teams of big chunks of their own "rebuilds" already in progress...but for the most part, it doesn't really work that way, unless you're moving really high-end, longer-term, younger pieces.

 

[TLinden]

On mobile so I can't link, but Pap retweeted that Daniel Sedin's house is for sale. Could be nothing, could be Benning clearing out the old guard

Let's reach out to all the BBQ Salespeople located in NHL cities

 

[Canadian Canuck]

On mobile so I can't link, but Pap retweeted that Daniel Sedin's house is for sale. Could be nothing, could be Benning clearing out the old guard

One can dream

 

[Balls Mahoney]

Another thing that really pisses me off is letting Richardson walk for nothing. This guy was the glue of our bottom six, showed up when he was needed and had surprising skill for a bottom six center. I would go so far as to argue his presence helped insult Horvat a good deal.

Why did this guy get let go without another word. I would argue we let our two most useful depth players walk for nothing and trading our young power forward for worse than nothing.

Who's carrying the defensive duties down the middle next season? Its not going to be Sedin or Bonino and it better not be Horvat. So who does that leave?

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Would you guys trade:

Sedins @ 25-50%

For

Fiala
Wilson
Ellis
1st 2016

 

[Horse McHindu]

On mobile so I can't link, but Pap retweeted that Daniel Sedin's house is for sale. Could be nothing, could be Benning clearing out the old guard

I'm not reading much into that. Benning's goal of this team is to re-tool while surrounding promising prospects with solid vets (vets of which that are current/former elite players, or are known for their great character).

If Benning trades the twins, he is contradicting his own philosophy, and you instantly go into rebuild mode (and by trading the twins, it would be a horribly misguided approach to a rebuild - see Florida Panthers of yesteryear).

 

[Horse McHindu]

Would you guys trade:

Sedins @ 25-50%

For

Fiala
Wilson
Ellis
1st 2016

Absolutely not. Bonino is not a number 1 center, and prematurely pushing Horvat into such a role could be disasterous.