Pre-Game Talk: The All-Purpose Mike Sullivan Thread - ALL COMMENTS AND COMPLAINTS HERE

[Turin]

How long does the "he coached them to back to back Cups" have a shelf life? Honestly curious, because that seems to be the one defense for Sullivan whenever any criticism of how the team is performing under him is brought up to suggest you can't put any blame on him.

If the team continues to look like it has this year for the next 3 or 4 seasons, does any talk of him being removed still get met with "back to back Cups, yo!"?

(PS. I still think the defense corps is the #1 issue with this club. But I also don't think having blind faith in the coach because he's "coached them to back to back Cups" should be the catch-all to wave away any blame Sullivan may share in the team's struggles)

No, because the response is clearly the context of Sid and Geno’s attitudes, who’ve both played hard and have had a lot of success under Sullivan. 3-4 seasons ok? We’re talking 1 month of bad play from Malkin.

 

[Gurglesons]

How long does the "he coached them to back to back Cups" have a shelf life? Honestly curious, because that seems to be the one defense for Sullivan whenever any criticism of how the team is performing under him is brought up to suggest you can't put any blame on him.

If the team continues to look like it has this year for the next 3 or 4 seasons, does any talk of him being removed still get met with "back to back Cups, yo!"?

(PS. I still think the defense corps is the #1 issue with this club. But I also don't think having blind faith in the coach because he's "coached them to back to back Cups" should be the catch-all to wave away any blame Sullivan may share in the team's struggles)

Like I said, I’m fine firing Sullivan. I think it is one of the few “nuclear” options with this roster.

That being said, let’s not paint an untrue picture of Sullivan. Go read the Custance book. There’s literally page after page about Kessel. He talks about how he wanted to put HBK together from day one, how Kessel was “okay” with it, but didn’t seem that into it and how Kessel gets a ton of unnecessary crap from the media.

I don’t know. He seems like a pretty straight forward coach. Our team roster is a wreck right now defensively.

Easy to just blame the coach and read too much into media stories. It’s funny how the Despres and Sprong stuff is BS, but when the story suits an agenda it is all true.

I’d also argue that if Sullivan gets fired JR won’t be too far behind. He’s the real culprit in quickly closing our window with the Hunwick, Reaves and Johnson deals.

 

[Hockey Freak 7]

I realized something on here..


Some people on here have very blind eyes with loyalty on here. Big blinders.. You don’t trade players like Malkin and Keesel to accommodate a short shelf life coach

He doesn’t get blame on anything. He’s above criticism and very infallible ... I love the friendliness and chill discussion. it’s like people can’t have their own real reality of Sullivan in their faces..
I get it . You appreciate Mike Sullivan to help them achieve B2B stanley cups with hungry, next man up mentality, great goaltending , great leadership from Sid and Geno..

Mike Sullivan has been very poor for the past two seasons.. what have you done lately? He makes questionable and bone headed decisions over the last three seasons etc..

This isn’t about the past with B2b stanley cups..

Very much the present.
Pens needs new coaching because coaches around here seems to get comfortable after accomplishment, don’t adjust,one dimensional system, ego/favoritism with players, put players place wrong places to succeed and often let the players take the blame
He has been underperforming for a longtime and with issues with players.
Their usages etc..

You want to wasted Sid and Geno more great years to come.. They were already wasted in their younger years..

Every player Sullivan doesn’t like / can’t adjust right in line up due to brutal line combos shouldn’t be traded out of town..

Mike Sullivan on many occasions has forced Rutherford’s hand..

Kessel and Malkin shouldn’t go...
Kessel and Malkin are part of the core, IMO
Kessel should stay til his contract ends.. Quite frankly he give Penguins something unique and one of their best top right wingers that’s a weapon teams can’t handle..

Malkin and Kessel Isn’t the issue here..

This isn’t a Malkin slump.. this Malkin tired of Mike Sullivan and his system is poor with messages..
Rutherford shouldn’t be trading guys that he doesn’t like ..

Nhl coaches come and go..

Mike Sullivan time is up..
He did his very , very good job here two seasons ago with Rick Tocchet..( B2b cups/change the culture )
Penguins are winning 1-3 games then lose a lot critical games for much needed points for playoffs this season that can rest core guys at the end of seasson for playoffs . A lot of lingering issues around Sullivan has been there last season..

Sullivan is one of Pens biggest problems..
It’s over.. he lost pens players long time ago..

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

No, because the response is clearly the context of Sid and Geno’s attitudes, who’ve both played hard and have had a lot of success under Sullivan. 3-4 seasons ok? We’re talking 1 month of bad play from Malkin.

Sid and Geno both played hard and had a lot of success under Bylsma as well. Until they didn't.

I'm not sure why we're judging everything on what they did in the past. I'm not judging Sullivan on the job he did in 2016 or 2017. I'm judging him based on what I'm seeing right now.

Also, my comment wasn't exclusively about Dupuis' latest interview involving Kessel and Malkin. It was a general point about how Sullivan winning back to back Cups seems to always be brought up as a defense for why it's stupid to fire him.

 

[Turin]

I realized something on here..


Some people on here have very blind eyes with loyalty on here. Big blinders.. You don’t trade a players like Malkin and Keesel to accommodate a short shelf life coach

He doesn’t get blame on anything. He’s above criticism and very infallible ... I love the friendliness and chill discussion. it’s like people can’t have their own real reality of Sullivan in their faces..
I get it . You appreciate Mike Sullivan to help them achieve B2B stanley cups with hungry, next man up mentality, great goaltending , great leadership from Sid and Geno..

Mike Sullivan has been very poor for the past two seasons.. what have you done lately? He makes questionable and bone headed decisions over the last three seasons etc..

This isn’t about the past with B2b stanley cups..

Very much the present.
Pens needs new coaching because coaches around here seems to get comfortable after accomplishment, don’t adjust,one dimensional system, ego/favoritism with players, put players place wrong to succeed and often let the players take the blame
He has been underperforming for a longtime and with issues with players.
Their usages etc..

You want to wasted Sid and Geno more great years to come.. They were already wasted in their younger years..

Every player Sullivan doesn’t like / can’t adjust right in line up shouldn’t be traded out of town..

Mike Sullivan on many occasions has forced Rutherford’s hand..

Kessel and Malkin shouldn’t go...
Kessel and Malkin are part of the core, IMO
Kessel should stay til his contract ends.. Quite frankly he give Penguins something unique and one of their best top right wingers that’s a weapon teams can’t handle..

Malkin and Kessel Isn’t the issue here..

This a Malkin slump.. this Malkin tired of Malkin Sullivan and his system is poor with messages..
Rutherford shouldn’t be trading guys that he doesn’t like ..

Nhl coaches come and go..

Mike Sullivan time is up..
He did his very good job here two seasons ago with Rick Tocchet..
Penguins are winning 1-3 games then lose a lot critical games for much needs points for playoffs that can rest core guys at the end of seasson for playoffs . A lot of lingering issues around Sullivan has been there last season..

Sullivan is one of Pens biggest problems..
It’s over..

So you follow up “everybody who disagrees with me has blinders on” with an entire book of pure rhetoric and speculation.

Ok. I’m open to “everybody hates Sully”. I just need more evidence than JR trading a guy they thought they weren’t going to sign and Malkin having a bad month. Just give me something of substance.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Like I said, I’m fine firing Sullivan. I think it is one of the few “nuclear” options with this roster.

That being said, let’s not paint an untrue picture of Sullivan. Go read the Custance book. There’s literally page after page about Kessel. He talks about how he wanted to put HBK together from day one, how Kessel was “okay” with it, but didn’t seem that into it and how Kessel gets a ton of unnecessary crap from the media.

I don’t know. He seems like a pretty straight forward coach. Our team roster is a wreck right now defensively.

Easy to just blame the coach and read too much into media stories. It’s funny how the Despres and Sprong stuff is BS, but when the story suits an agenda it is all true.

I’d also argue that if Sullivan gets fired JR won’t be too far behind. He’s the real culprit in quickly closing our window with the Hunwick, Reaves and Johnson deals.

Seems, as in current? Or seemed, as in when we were having success? Coaches can change, just like players can. I'm sure if someone wrote a book about Bylsma in 2009, he'd come across as much more brilliant and the kind of coach any franchise would love as opposed to if a book was written about Bylsma around 2013 and on.

I have no doubt Sullivan has many good qualities. My fear is he's starting to believe his own hype and his bad qualities, which he was willing to change/alter in the past if they weren't working, are now ones he sticks with because after all he's a back to back Cup winning coach and so how can he be wrong about anything?

Again, that's my fear based on what I'm seeing in terms of a disorganized team and certain player usage. It may be 100% incorrect and this might be completely roster construction related. But coaches having a shelf life is a thing for a reason. Even the best wear out their welcome eventually.

 

[Turin]

Sid and Geno both played hard and had a lot of success under Bylsma as well. Until they didn't.

I'm not sure why we're judging everything on what they did in the past. I'm not judging Sullivan on the job he did in 2016 or 2017. I'm judging him based on what I'm seeing right now.

Also, my comment wasn't exclusively about Dupuis' latest interview involving Kessel and Malkin. It was a general point about how Sullivan winning back to back Cups seems to always be brought up as a defense for why it's stupid to fire him.

Well, what is a good reason to trust a coach? You obviously believe there are none since 2017 was apparently a very long time ago. Even when the roster is severely flawed and the metric shifts downward can be directly pointed to changes in the lineup and poor goaltending. Sid is playing some of his best hockey in a while right now, Geno has been bad for a month. Lost the room? Think we need more evidence mate.

 

[Turin]

If you want to fire Sully and hire Q, you’ve bought enough success to take that risk. Fine. But just firing Sully for anyone as if he’s the big problem is hilarious. These reasons to oust him are mostly incredible stretches and paranoia about a one dimensional wing prospect or somebodies favourite Russian centre.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Confirmed: Pascal Dupuis is @Honour Over Glory

YOU CAN'T PROVE SHIT!

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Exactly
Pascal Dupuis is very close Malkin and Crosby.. Kessel to a certain extent..

Duper was just in town with his som’s youth hockey team , wife and other kids .. Got a really another great standing ovation

He was around the building with Players and other people in locker room .. behind the scenes etc.. that’s nothing new.. he has that luxury..

I mean, he comes in town, sees his best buds and asks them hows everything? I can 100% see a few that are frustrated and close to him just laying it all out because speaking to some of the players might not be easy if they're a split room.

Granted, Madden is a tool, but he also mentioned there was a rift between JR and Sully as well.

Both are tools, so its whatever.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

And part of that was our PK getting eaten alive and Cole was leading defensemen at minor penalties if I recall correctly.

Eh, he had a few bad games and wasn't looking good, but he was benched so long, he never had a proper shot to play out of it, then he finally did get a shot likely just to show case him just enough to get him out of town.

Then he goes on to have a solid season elsewhere and has been a fantastic cog in the Avs rise.

Cole also had a partner he started to look good with prior to that season, Schultz, he was constantly split up from him as well.

 

[EightyOne]

I don't put any stock in what Dupuis is saying.

Hes not even claiming he knows anything, hes just giving an opinion.

If he actually claimed he knew something then i could take it more seriously.

Why would Dupuis say it?
The quote even has him hesitate, he could have switched directions, right?

It is funny how quick some are to discredit a coach who took a team that underachieved for nearly ten years and instilled a system and culture that led to the first back to back cup performance in twenty years.

The culture and system have been eroding....

Confirmed: Pascal Dupuis is @Honour Over Glory

HoG wishes!!

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Nothing really earth breaking there... he has his own thoughts on the matter, and voiced a suggestion. But he doesn't really hint at anything concrete or suggest that this is anything other than his own thoughts.

I have not heard the actual clip, but knowing the host, he probably led Dupuis to speculate and he probably asked something like: "You were just in Pittsburgh, do you think Malkin and Kessel, who are having bad stretches, are tiring of the coach."

If that was the line of questionning, Duper probably tried to be as evasive as possible. He is a member of the family and still very close to our leadership group AND openly cheers for us on Québécois TV.

I would have to see the French clip and I'd know for sure. DK does not speak French so he got his info from a third party.

Gosh I wish I had seen the clip. Looked on TVA Sports social media and website and found nothing

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

After Dupuis’ comments, that story is blowing up on DK’s site right now. It’s the perfect chance for the media to create a dying alive narrative.

Malkin played his most complete game 2016-2017 under Sullivan. Tremendous in 2017-2018. Now we should believe that Sullivan simply lost him?

Feels like this starts and ends with Kessel. There’s a reason he doesn’t last on any team.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

After Dupuis’ comments, that story is blowing up on DK’s site right now. It’s the perfect chance for the media to create a dying alive narrative.

Malkin played his most complete game 2016-2017 under Sullivan. Tremendous in 2017-2018. Now we should believe that Sullivan simply lost him?

Feels like this starts and ends with Kessel. There’s a reason he doesn’t last on any team.

I hate the god damn media.

One ex players says something in a language none of those losers speak and they run a story and make it viral. Of course, DK being the "dying for attention" loser that he is probably did not WANT context. Saying that there is a rift is a much better way to drive up subscriptions...

I repeat, I must see the clip and when I do, I'll be able to say what Dupuis meant, if he was speculating, if the host led him, etc.

 

[ronduguayshair]

The fire Sullivan opinion needs put on blast.

Same people that complain about his system don't know what it is outside of speed. Our breakout is the number #1 issue with the team. Teams are playing our winger aggressively along the boards. Over and over again the winger cough up the puck here (everyone's favorite prospect was king of this) and we get pinned in, the center and off side winger help out and our defensive structure breaks down. Is this a Sullivan problem? I thought it could be. Why doesn't he change? Well its because 3 of his defensemen can't do anything but throw the puck of the boards because their first pass and awareness is so bad. How is this Sullivan's fault?

Our second periods are our second biggest issue. Our first and second lines have no interest in strong changes. Guentzel, Kessel, and the king Malkin shine here. Bad dumps, drop passes when the rest of the team is changing, and general lack of hustle. Team know that they can aggressively counter attack us all second period. Some of you stat chasers should make yourself useful and see our goal differential in the second period. I am sure its a bloodbath. How is the Sullivan's fault?

Third our biggest issue is a lack of focus. A penalty at the beginning of the second period, the every game lazy "forecheck" penalty by Malkin, the opposing team's offside defenseman wide open barreling down the slot, or our specialty "hope" passes through three players . Is this Sullivan's fault? It could be said so but I tend to think its more on all on the players in the room. Why does this group have a lack of focus and end up killing coaches? Why does Malkin say he has a commitment to winning at the beginning of the year but then makes continually loser plays out there? Why is our commitment not to winning hockey? Sullivan doesn't preach dumb passes and loser hockey? How is this Sullivan's fault?

Finally we have a flawed roster and some significant injuries. People want to complain about Garrett Wilson but our 4th line has looked best with him on it. He has drawn penalties in back to back games with what under 8 minutes of ice time? How many penalties have our stars drawn this year? You have to have a fourth line with an identity. Assembling a fourth line like your playing a video game doesn't work in real life. People complain about ZAR's and Rust's ice time but these guys kill penalties for you. Again this isn't a video game. He has shown a commitment to youth and it is what put us over the edge in our last two cup runs. Simon has continued this run of success. People that point to player's being miscast aren't taking the time to look at our injuries and the bigger picture. You can't always have a healthy lineup.

The one's wanting Sullivan fired can't argue a viable reason to do so. Reality not fantasy. I guess it is easier to get rid of coach than I player that you might own a jersey of. If you want Sullivan gone then you really don't deserve the last two cups. It is a real amateur opinion. If we ran our team like some of the more outspoken posters here want with no loyalty and with knee jerk reactions then we would be Philadelphia. You don't get it. Cheer for the logo not your favorite player or prospect. Otherwise it is a bad look.

PS - I don't pretend to know much about Q as a coach but from what I hear is that he wasn't adapting to the way the NHL has changed. So you want to bring a coach in that is exactly your complaint of Sullivan? Amateurs. Do you think our dumb, lack of focus players will be able to adapt to his complex break ins? Amateur idea.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Oh boy, looks like I missed people running with Dupuis' speculation to further their own agenda. Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. All of the people who want to ***** about Sullivan are quoting the opinion of a guy who hasn't even been in the Penguins locker room for 3 years.

The people who want to fire Sullivan 18 months after winning a second of back to back cups have no grasp on reality. There's really nothing else to say about it.

 

[EightyOne]

The fire Sullivan opinion needs put on blast.

Same people that complain about his system don't know what it is outside of speed. Our breakout is the number #1 issue with the team. Teams are playing our winger aggressively along the boards. Over and over again the winger cough up the puck here (everyone's favorite prospect was king of this) and we get pinned in, the center and off side winger help out and our defensive structure breaks down. Is this a Sullivan problem? I thought it could be. Why doesn't he change? Well its because 3 of his defensemen can't do anything but throw the puck of the boards because their first pass and awareness is so bad. How is this Sullivan's fault?

Our second periods are our second biggest issue. Our first and second lines have no interest in strong changes. Guentzel, Kessel, and the king Malkin shine here. Bad dumps, drop passes when the rest of the team is changing, and general lack of hustle. Team know that they can aggressively counter attack us all second period. Some of you stat chasers should make yourself useful and see our goal differential in the second period. I am sure its a bloodbath. How is the Sullivan's fault?

Third our biggest issue is a lack of focus. A penalty at the beginning of the second period, the every game lazy "forecheck" penalty by Malkin, the opposing team's offside defenseman wide open barreling down the slot, or our specialty "hope" passes through three players . Is this Sullivan's fault? It could be said so but I tend to think its more on all on the players in the room. Why does this group have a lack of focus and end up killing coaches? Why does Malkin say he has a commitment to winning at the beginning of the year but then makes continually loser plays out there? Why is our commitment not to winning hockey? Sullivan doesn't preach dumb passes and loser hockey? How is this Sullivan's fault?

Finally we have a flawed roster and some significant injuries. People want to complain about Garrett Wilson but our 4th line has looked best with him on it. He has drawn penalties in back to back games with what under 8 minutes of ice time? How many penalties have our stars drawn this year? You have to have a fourth line with an identity. Assembling a fourth line like your playing a video game doesn't work in real life. People complain about ZAR's and Rust's ice time but these guys kill penalties for you. Again this isn't a video game. He has shown a commitment to youth and it is what put us over the edge in our last two cup runs. Simon has continued this run of success. People that point to player's being miscast aren't taking the time to look at our injuries and the bigger picture. You can't always have a healthy lineup.

The one's wanting Sullivan fired can't argue a viable reason to do so. Reality not fantasy. I guess it is easier to get rid of coach than I player that you might own a jersey of. If you want Sullivan gone then you really don't deserve the last two cups. It is a real amateur opinion. If we ran our team like some of the more outspoken posters here want with no loyalty and with knee jerk reactions then we would be Philadelphia. You don't get it. Cheer for the logo not your favorite player or prospect. Otherwise it is a bad look.

PS - I don't pretend to know much about Q as a coach but from what I hear is that he wasn't adapting to the way the NHL has changed. So you want to bring a coach in that is exactly your complaint of Sullivan? Amateurs. Do you think our dumb, lack of focus players will be able to adapt to his complex break ins? Amateur idea.

So you've recognized stupid plays.

Why doesn't Sullivan stop these stupid plays? Makes no sense for him to just sit back and go "I dunno what they're doing out there" does it?

If it's the players, then why don't the Pens just blow it all up and trade everybody? They clearly haven't learned hockey over the last two years, what makes you think they will over the next three months?

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Pascal Dupuis suggests disconnect between Mike Sullivan and Evgeni Malkin/Phil Kessel

Mike Sullivan is a good coach, yeah he’s made some poor decisions but I don’t think he’s lost that room. He never had Kessel to begin with. People can say what they want, but players like that don’t fit in Sullivan’s plan. Malkin only fits when he simplifies the game, but he’s capable. Kessel isn’t going to change.

 

[ronduguayshair]

So you've recognized stupid plays.

Why doesn't Sullivan stop these stupid plays? Makes no sense for him to just sit back and go "I dunno what they're doing out there" does it?

If it's the players, then why don't the Pens just blow it all up and trade everybody? They clearly haven't learned hockey over the last two years, what makes you think they will over the next three months?

I can’t tell if you are serious and think he just sits there and let’s it happen.

Sullivan sat Guentzel last game for a stupid play. Sullivan isn’t going to bench a star veteran though. You just can’t bench a 7+ million dollar player. That’s not the way it works. I’m sure he wants to.

I’d trade Kessel. He’s not a good 5 on 5 player on this team. I feel Guentzel can fill his role adequately in the power play. If you can’t get the right value then go with what you got and hope this broken team can get hot.

After this season I’d see where are at and if it continues broken as I see it I’d sit Malkin down and ask him if he wants to be a part of this team. Does he still want to do what it takes to win. Not because Sullivan is more important than him but is he still worth his salary as a ghost five on five. Will he be a leader or continue to play selfish unfocused hockey.

 

[Icarium]

I love how so many posters claim to know what's going on in the Pens dressing room and it is somehow exactly what they want to be going on to confirm their negative opinions about certain players and coaches. Dupuis maybe, sort of hinted something - must be gospel truth. Okay...

 

[WayneSid9987]

All i can say is that it does make some sense.
And if it's true, the core + Sully need to iron it out or get him outta here.
Especially the part where you can move forward with a Q or AV vs leaving it unresolved and missing out on both.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Like I said, I’m fine firing Sullivan. I think it is one of the few “nuclear” options with this roster.

That being said, let’s not paint an untrue picture of Sullivan. Go read the Custance book. There’s literally page after page about Kessel. He talks about how he wanted to put HBK together from day one, how Kessel was “okay” with it, but didn’t seem that into it and how Kessel gets a ton of unnecessary crap from the media.

I don’t know. He seems like a pretty straight forward coach. Our team roster is a wreck right now defensively.

Easy to just blame the coach and read too much into media stories. It’s funny how the Despres and Sprong stuff is BS, but when the story suits an agenda it is all true.

I’d also argue that if Sullivan gets fired JR won’t be too far behind. He’s the real culprit in quickly closing our window with the Hunwick, Reaves and Johnson deals.

The Reaves trade was basically a mandate from higher powers to protect Crosby/Malkin. Sullivan was obviously not pleased and treated Reaves like a goon, but he’s done quite well for the Blues and is on pace to obliterate his career high in points with the Knights.

So all things considered (orders from above and a coach being stubborn) blaming JR for how things went with Reaves isn’t fair IMHO.

The Hunwick mistake he cleaned up, and JJ doesn’t look like a good signing, but there will be buyouts in the new CBA, so he won’t be an albatross on the org for five years like people keep saying.

He and Sullivan both seem to have gotten away from their identity of skill and speed, but which guy is the most guilty, I dunno.

All i can say is that it does make some sense.
And if it's true, the core + Sully need to iron it out or get him outta here.
Especially the part where you can move forward with a Q or AV vs leaving it unresolved and missing out on both.

I think we just have to be careful about running Sullivan out of town because of moody superstars. The same thing happened with Bowman, and I’m thoroughly convinced it cost the Pens at least 1-2 extra cups.

I’d like to see this roster fixed first, especially the D... then see what happens before they do anything rash with Sullivan.

 

[Pens x]

Where there is smoke there is fire.

Are we going to trade Malkin and Kessel now since they don’t get along with that piece of trash Sully?

Can we please just rid of this bum? Keeping him is almost as bad as the Steelers keeping Boswell.

Are we really going to waste this season because Sully was successful almost two years ago? Are we going to trade everyone except ZAR and Simon to make our awful coach happy?

 

[ronduguayshair]

Where there is smoke there is fire.

Are we going to trade Malkin and Kessel now since they don’t get along with that piece of trash Sully?

Can we please just rid of this bum? Keeping him is almost as bad as the Steelers keeping Boswell.

Why is Sullivan trash?

Thought is to trade Kessel or Malkin because they are selfish and think they are more important than the team. This is only an issue now because the team is broken. Cheer for the logo not the player.