TV: The All - Encompassing Star Trek Thread. Debate Long + Prosper

Jumptheshark

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I've been doing a re-watch of TNG (first time in a while) and am on S3 right now. 15 episodes in and at least 9 of them have been critiques of some element of American society, whether it's the results of extreme individualism (The Survivors), or proxies for runaway speculation in the stock market (The Price), or how we treat our veterans (The Hunted), or how far the US is responsible for the effects of economic imperialism (The High Ground), etc, etc.... its all progressive politics and it always has been.

The people who want progressive politics out of Star Trek make me wonder if we watched the same show.
we are not talking about the show but how THE FANS perceived it. They are two different things.

It is ironic that the fans had problems with Sisko and Janeway on a show that was all about progressiveness. It has been written about in a few different places that as long as it was a Christian, white male in charge or being the hero--it was OKAY.
 

Tawnos

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we are not talking about the show but how THE FANS perceived it. They are two different things.

It is ironic that the fans had problems with Sisko and Janeway on a show that was all about progressiveness. It has been written about in a few different places that as long as it was a Christian, white male in charge or being the hero--it was OKAY.

I know they're two different things... my point is that there's just as much irony in the "get the politics out of my Star Trek" as there is in the casting stuff. It's the same fans who have a problem with both.

TNG's cast was pretty diverse for the late 80s - 2 black men, 3 women (to start) in the cast. But you're right, there were still white men in charge. Plus, the 2 women that they kept on were both slotted into "traditional" (read: outdated) gender roles for most of the run, so of course that's ok!
 
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Jussi

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It's also ironic when fans of a world in which gender and race don't matter are quick to make them the most significant matter during arguments. Apparently, people who weren't fans of Janeway are sexist and people who aren't fans of Burnham are sexist and racist. You might as well be saying that there can be no legitimate criticisms of either. That's not constructive or progressive. If we want a society like Star Trek's, in which gender and race don't matter, we need to stop making them the issue at every opportunity and accept that treating people equally doesn't mean sparing them from criticism.
Well when you have comments like the one in here, it's easy to see why people view these people as racists: Racist Star Trek Fans Decry Discovery's Diversity, Revealing They Know Nothing About Star Trek

And there's also this: New study suggests racism and sexism drive fan backlash against diverse Star Wars characters
 

Osprey

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TNG's cast was pretty diverse for the late 80s - 2 black men, 3 women (to start) in the cast. But you're right, there were still white men in charge. Plus, the 2 women that they kept on were both slotted into normal gender roles for most of the run, so of course that's ok!
Medicine and psychology were not "normal gender roles" for women in the 80s. Women didn't really start going into those fields until the 70s. There's a reason why the doctor in TOS was a man. In fact, the doctor in every other Star Trek series is man, as well, so it's not even a normal gender role for the franchise. Doctor, Counselor and Chief of Security were are all somewhat progressive roles for women in 1987 and two of them were heads of their departments.
 

Osprey

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It's easy to negatively generalize any group of people by a minority of it. That doesn't excuse it.

Also, showing that people who are sexist and racist aren't fans of Burnham doesn't justify the suggestion that "people who aren't fans of Burnham are sexist and racist."
 

Jussi

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It's easy to negatively generalize any group of people by a minority of it. That doesn't excuse it.

Also, showing that people who are sexist and racist aren't fans of Burnham doesn't justify the suggestion that "people who aren't fans of Burnham are sexist and racist."
Not sure I would've gone with that sentence.
 

Tawnos

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It's also ironic when fans of a world in which gender and race don't matter are quick to make them the most significant matter during arguments. Apparently, people who weren't fans of Janeway are sexist and people who aren't fans of Burnham are sexist and racist. You might as well be saying that there can be no legitimate criticisms of either. That's not constructive or progressive. If we want a society like Star Trek's, in which gender and race don't matter, we need to stop making them the issue at every opportunity and accept that treating people equally doesn't mean sparing them from criticism.

The "gender and race don't matter" thing is a misdirection. Nobody wants a society where gender and race don't matter. We want a society where all genders and all races are treated equally and have equal opportunities. It's the whole thing where "I don't see color" is not a positive. You want to acknowledge people's identities and backgrounds as being equal to anyone else's, not ignore it. Race and gender DO matter in Star Trek. They just don't hold people back from reaching their full potentials. In other words, in-world, it matters to the character of Janeway that she's a woman but her being a woman didn't present a challenge to her becoming a captain nor does anyone treat her differently because of it. Or an even more perfect example: Sisko's race didn't hold him back from advancing in Starfleet and no one treats him differently because he's Black, but it's also pretty clearly a deep-rooted part of his identity that he's proud of.

Most importantly, we don't live in a society where all genders and races are treated equally and have equal opportunities. And while we don't, these conversations are important to have. It's not hard at all to tell when someone's dislike of a character is rooted in legitimate critique and not racism of sexism, and they should be challenged on it.

Medicine and psychology were not "normal gender roles" for women in the 80s. Women didn't really start going into those fields until the 70s. There's a reason why the doctor in TOS was a man. In fact, the doctor in every other Star Trek series is man, as well, so it's not even a normal gender role for the franchise. Doctor, Counselor and Chief of Security were are all somewhat progressive roles for women in 1987 and two of them were heads of their departments.

I wasn't really referring to profession when I wrote that. I was more talking about their behavior and attitudes, how those conform to ideas of masculinity and femininity, and the way those interplay with the dynamics of the rest of the crew. In those ways, both Troi and Crusher conformed to traditional feminine gender roles pretty strongly. Pulaski didn't, and in some ways she was a much better character for the show. There's nothing wrong with a woman who conforms strongly to those kinds of gender roles. It's more that having a counterpoint was good. Yar was a good counterpoint in the same way, though she wasn't like Pulaski at all.
 
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Osprey

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The "gender and race don't matter" thing is a misdirection. Nobody wants a society where gender and race don't matter. We want a society where all genders and all races are treated equally and have equal opportunities. It's the whole thing where "I don't see color" is not a positive. You want to acknowledge people's identities and backgrounds as being equal to anyone else's, not ignore it. Race and gender DO matter in Star Trek. They just don't hold people back from reaching their full potentials. In other words, in-world, it matters to the character of Janeway that she's a woman but her being a woman didn't present a challenge to her becoming a captain nor does anyone treat her differently because of it. Or an even more perfect example: Sisko's race didn't hold him back from advancing in Starfleet and no one treats him differently because he's Black, but it's also pretty clearly a deep-rooted part of his identity that he's proud of.
It wasn't a misdirection. It was in the context of what you're talking about, that gender and race don't matter when it comes to opportunities and treatment.
I wasn't really referring to profession when I wrote that. I was more talking about their behavior and attitudes, how those conform to ideas of masculinity and femininity, and the way those interplay with the dynamics of the rest of the crew. In those ways, both Troi and Crusher conformed to traditional feminine gender roles pretty strongly. Pulaski didn't, and in some ways she was a much better character for the show. There's nothing wrong with a woman who conforms strongly to those kinds of gender roles. It's more that having a counterpoint was good. Yar was a good counterpoint in the same way, though she wasn't like Pulaski at all.
Thanks for the explanation. I agree with that.
 

Tawnos

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It wasn't a misdirection. It was in the context of what you're talking about, that gender and race don't matter when it comes to opportunities and treatment.

Thanks for the explanation. I agree with that.

Agreement!

On the first part... again, those things get brought up in conversations today because gender and race do matter in our society when it comes to opportunities and treatment. Star Trek fans who truly buy into the ethos of the future society being portrayed want to get to that, but we know that we're not there now. We live in a societal order that has roots in racism and sexism. Even though we're not close to there yet, we're much closer than we were 50 years ago when the show first came around. Plenty of people who have had problems with the women and Black people we've seen in authority positions, or as the central focus of the stories, are clearly heavily bought into that societal order. Are they explicitly racist or sexist? Sometimes, yeah. Other times it's just an underlying reason why a person might be uncomfortable watching those roles.

The purest hope with bringing race and gender into the conversation is that someone might realize what I just said above applies to them. The problem with bringing race and gender into the conversation is that a lot of people, especially those with the underlying reasons, get their backs up as soon as it's mentioned. That's not a good enough reason to not bring it up though. And not bringing it up because of that will never result in getting to the Star Trek society of the future.

Of course, the reality is that 22nd-24th century Star Trek society represents a post-apocalyptic world far enough removed from the apocalypse to not be dystopic. It's a discussion I was having with someone the other day: do we really need a WWIII to get to the Star Trek future? It's a fascinating and somewhat depressing thought.
 
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Osprey

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I just get a strong vibe of "not all Trump fans are racists but all racist support Trump" from that sentence.
Does that mean that you don't understand the logic? It's the same as "not all rectangles are squares, but all squares are rectangles." Think of a Venn diagram with a circle inside of a much larger circle.
 
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Jumptheshark

Rebooting myself
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DAMMITT!!!! I liked Prodigy

 
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Tawnos

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Also rumors floating around that Netflix is going to buy Paramount, so this could be an attempt to trim some fat in anticipation.
 

Jussi

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FWIW, Bezos is a big ST fan.

I really hope Paramount does get bought out. They've done a terrible job handling the Star Trek franchise.
*looks at Rings Of Power season 1 and the lukewarm reception to that*

Amazon is also looking at Paramount and so is Disney.
I find that hard to believe, Max. They're cutting costs everywhere and a property purchase right now doesn't feel timely.
 

Rpenny

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*looks at Rings Of Power season 1 and the lukewarm reception to that*


I find that hard to believe, Max. They're cutting costs everywhere and a property purchase right now doesn't feel timely.
IP property.
 

johnjm22

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I think Apple makes some sense for Star Trek.

They'll be using Apple products on the bridge of the Enterprise.
 

johnjm22

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They don't exist in the 23rd/24th century.
It was a joke.

But Apple products do seem Star Trek inspired. So it would be ironic if they ended up owning the IP.

And just because a product doesn't make sense in a fictional universe, doesn't mean a corporation would be above shoehorning it in.
 

johnjm22

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"Paramount Falls Apart"

CNBC recently published an article about legacy media and the great trouble they are in. None is crippled as badly managed as Paramount Global (NASDAQ: PARA), which is unlikely to recover from its current problems.

Considering what a massive smash hit these Star Trek shows have been, it's weird that Paramount is having trouble.
 

Jussi

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"Paramount Falls Apart"



Considering what a massive smash hit these Star Trek shows have been, it's weird that Paramount is having trouble.
As much as you and the likes of Nerdrotic, Midnight's Edge etc. like to think, Star Trek is not the reason for it Paramount's trouble. The streaming competition is just too hard right now:

While Warner Bros. Discovery and Disney have viable streaming services, which at least can challenge industry leaders Netflix and Amazon Prime, Paramount does not. It has only 60 million subscribers for its Paramount+ service. Disney+ has 158 million, and Netflix has 232 million. The streaming business suffers greatly from churn. People regularly cancel one service and move to another. The average U.S. household has four services. Paramount is near the bottom of the pyramid.

Even Paramount’s studio operations are in trouble. Revenue dropped 6% in the most recent quarter to $588 million. Adjusted OIBDA showed a loss of $99 million. According to Box Office Mojo, Paramount does not have a movie in the top 10 based in revenue in 2023.

Paramount may simply be too small to compete in either the old media or new media business. That news could hardly be worse for shareholders.
 

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