Prospect Info: The all-encompassing Sam Morin thread [began in 2017]

[MorgantiDrinksBlood]

Wait wait. Hagg being acceptable or just enough as your last defensemen is fine. But the thing is we put a first round pick in Morin he has the physical tools to be special. You see every once in awhile all a guy needs is a few good games at the nhl or pro level to boost their confidence and start to develop into something. We really don’t know what we have 100% I’m Morin and I think it would be worth just giving him a shot. It’s not like Hagg’s dominating and making an impact, he’s a #6 on pretty much any nhl team that’s decent. Give Morin a shot, shit even limit it to 8-10 games but give the kid a shot.

 

[Deadpool8812]

Wait wait. Hagg being acceptable or just enough as your last defensemen is fine. But the thing is we put a first round pick in Morin he has the physical tools to be special. You see every once in awhile all a guy needs is a few good games at the nhl or pro level to boost their confidence and start to develop into something. We really don’t know what we have 100% I’m Morin and I think it would be worth just giving him a shot. It’s not like Hagg’s dominating and making an impact, he’s a #6 on pretty much any nhl team that’s decent. Give Morin a shot, **** even limit it to 8-10 games but give the kid a shot.

I'm sure everyone agrees with this....except AV

 

[Don Nachbaur 26]

Wait wait. Hagg being acceptable or just enough as your last defensemen is fine. But the thing is we put a first round pick in Morin he has the physical tools to be special. You see every once in awhile all a guy needs is a few good games at the nhl or pro level to boost their confidence and start to develop into something. We really don’t know what we have 100% I’m Morin and I think it would be worth just giving him a shot. It’s not like Hagg’s dominating and making an impact, he’s a #6 on pretty much any nhl team that’s decent. Give Morin a shot, **** even limit it to 8-10 games but give the kid a shot.

I've been waiting patiently to see him get a shot. Starting to get upset that we haven't really seen it yet.

 

[David St Hubbins]

Now this is where people get ridiculous, hoping that Morin proves he is the better choice.

Why not hope that Hagg is as good as he looks so far AND that Morin can still push him for the #6 D-man spot.

That is, instead of rooting for a player to fail, root for both players to succeed?

Hagg has had his chance. He is who he is. And who is is a replacement level player, objectively #7 or 8 - at best -in talent. Despite this he has been given every opportunity to fail, and he has taken advantage of it.

So, hoping for an upgrade means either Morin, Myers or Friedman. And given the experience over the last few years, short of Hagg totally shitting the bed or being caught in AVs new car with a sheep, we dont get an upgrade.

Notice that this was a logical extrapolation based on observation and perhaps a bit of optimism (specifically with regards real upside of Morin and Freidman). No appeals to false authority, no ipse dixit tirades, no barrage of questionable statistics. Nor was there any assertion that people with contrary views are "ridiculous" or "haters" or otherwise behaving irrationally.

 

[flyersnorth]

Here's Bill M's take on the Morin situation in his blog this morning
HockeyBuzz.com - Bill Meltzer - Quick Hits: Chicago Prep, Lines, Morin, and More

* Vigneault said that he'd like to get defenseman Samuel Morin into a game but the defenseman will have to remain patient as the coach is not currently inclined to scratch any of the six defensemen playing above him. It's hard not to feel for Morin, an unbeat, exuberant and positive-focused young man who simply ran into horrific luck with injuries at the precise time in his development cycle when he'd gotten to the brink of getting an opportunity to stake down an NHL job.

Due to recurring core muscle issues in the fall of 2017 through spring of 2018, a torn ACL suffered in the first period of his third game of the playoffs, ACL reconstruction surgery and rehab that lasted three-quarters of the 2018-19 season and then seven healthy scratches to start the current season, Morin has only played in a total of 27 regular season and playoff games -- finishing 24 of them, and have to leave 3 due to injury -- in two calendar years. Seven of the games (two in 2017-18 and five last season) were in the NHL, while the other 20 were with Lehigh Valley.

Now 24, Morin is fully healthy but has missed so much hockey over the last two years that it's hard to know what he actually is as a candidate to play regularly in the NHL. He was still something of a work in progress before all the injuries but had made major strides. After all the setbacks and lost time, he's in an unenviable situation.

Something else that works against Morin to a certain degree is that he exclusively plays the left side on any defense pair. That can be worked around by pairing him with a right-handed D or a fellow left-handed shooter who is comfortable on his off-side but if there's a right D opening, it could go instead to waiver exempt Phantoms third-year defenseman Phil Myers, who is also awaiting his break to get back to the NHL with the Flyers.

While he's eligible (with his consent) to go to the Phantoms for a 14-day conditioning assignment, Morin can't stay there without clearing waivers. That, however, is probably what's best for him; to get in about 20 AHL games, and show that he's not just healthy but is playing consistently within his strengths.

The Flyers are reluctant to waive Morin because there is a risk that another organization will take on the 6-foot-6+ defenseman as a reclamation project and how they can make a Jamie Oleksiak type out of him if he stays healthy. With all of the resources the Flyers have been invested in his development and the fact that it's still not too late for him to make a career for himself, the Flyers have kept him on the NHL roster. At the same time, there isn't enough body of work the last two years to have confidence in dressing the player in the NHL starting six barring injuries elsewhere in the lineup.

Morin's sunny off-ice personality -- almost always smiling, enthusiastic and optimistic -- remains the same but he has to be feeling some frustration even if he understands the situation. One thing that works in his favor, though, is that he exudes work ethic. During training camp this September, on a day where all non-injured players had the day off (with the exception of Konecny, who had just arrived at camp one day earlier after signing his new contract), Morin worked out with Ricci. He does so almost daily in addition to taking the requisite extra skating and participation in every optional practice, which is pretty much expected of any player who is not in the starting lineup.

At some point soon, something has to give. Whether it's getting his permission to assign him to the Phantoms for a conditioning stint and then making a decision on waivers or keeping him with the big team, Morin deserves a chance to play somewhere. If he gets waived and claimed, at least he won't be stuck in limbo.

 

[deadhead]

Back to the original point - I believe you've mentioned before that you've got a PhD, and if that is the case, i greatly respect that. I'm sure theres a lot of work that goes into that, something im not sure i could ever dedicate myself to. I hope one day you are able to appreciate the simple humility of respecting the dedication and work that other people put into their professions, instead of pretending as though the life you've led is that of some sort of mid 19th century laborer.

My point is simply that there is no reason to feel sorry for Morin because he has some bad injury luck and hasn't got a shot at the big contract that would set him for life at a lifestyle that most, if not all of us, will never experience. At worst he spends a decade as a top AHL player, making $200-700K a year until his early 30s, then has to get a "real" job, clearing a total of $4-5 million by the time he's 35 years old. Life is hard for everyone, but it's a lot easier for those (unless they're idiots who piss away their good fortune) who don't have to face the wolf at the door. I'll save my sympathy for those who put in the dedication and work and still end up with the short end of the stick.

No, I never got one of those cushy tenured positions, they're almost impossible to get these days (academia has become a two tiered system, with a small group of tenured professors, a larger group of assistant professors who will be denied tenure and forced to leave academia or work as adjuncts at low pay and no benefits). Much of the economy these days is composed of "tournaments" where you have to not only work hard, but be lucky to find the right position at the right time (i.e. that doesn't collapse in the next recession or b/c political winds shifted). The few who get to the top prosper, the rest find themselves thrown on the street at some point - and yes, age discrimination is a bitter reality. There are millions who got crushed by the Great Recession, thrown out of work in their 50s, never to get a "real" job again. It turns out in this new economy, earnings peak in your 40s, then decline as companies push out older workers.

 

[deadhead]

Hagg has had his chance. He is who he is. And who is is a replacement level player, objectively #7 or 8 - at best -in talent. Despite this he has been given every opportunity to fail, and he has taken advantage of it.

So, hoping for an upgrade means either Morin, Myers or Friedman. And given the experience over the last few years, short of Hagg totally ****ting the bed or being caught in AVs new car with a sheep, we dont get an upgrade.

Notice that this was a logical extrapolation based on observation and perhaps a bit of optimism (specifically with regards real upside of Morin and Freidman). No appeals to false authority, no ipse dixit tirades, no barrage of questionable statistics. Nor was there any assertion that people with contrary views are "ridiculous" or "haters" or otherwise behaving irrationally.

Hagg is 24, I think any objective observer of NHL hockey would admit that he's at an age where he can significantly improve under the right coach, maybe not into a Norris candidate, but into a solid, reliable third pair defenseman. The same holds for Morin and Friedman. "Can" doesn't mean "will."

"False authority" is simply false, to become a NHL HC you have win an extremely competitive tournament, so it's logical to presume that generally NHL HCs have more knowledge and analytical skill (with reference to hockey judgments) than amateurs on a HF board. Doesn't mean they're always right, just that they're more likely to be right than people on this board. And HCs are far more motivated to make the right decision (their careers are on the line) than HF posters (their egos are on the line).

If three HCs conclude Hagg is a better player than Morin, odds are they're right and this board is wrong.
Same way if three HCs conclude NAK isn't a NHL starter.

Not only is it unlikely that all three are wrong, but the fact that different HCs, running different schemes, come to the same conclusion eliminates HC specific judgements (i.e. different HCs may value different qualities in players).

AV has zero commitment to Hagg (i.e. not his player, not his draft pick), so if he's playing Hagg over Morin, it's because he's concluded Hagg gives him a better chance of winning games right now. And it's not even a style thing since the two players have a similar playing style and skill set (i.e. neither is a good puck handler).

 

[Appleyard]

You are an absolute trip, man. Your presumptuous tone is unbecoming of a man of your 'education'.

I routinely work 70+ hours a week in a 'professional' job, living comfortably in downtown Philadelphia, formerly in downtown LA/Long Beach. I also dedicated my younger life to hockey, playing at a very high level, until concussions and the subsequent post concussion symptoms forced me to 'retire' from the game. I'm well aware of, and painfully familiar with, the arduous tasks that are required of both. While I have absolutely no intention of ignorantly accusing you of never holding a professional job ( i actually hold the education field in high esteem), I think you are grossly and incredibly ignorant of the amount of work that goes into the life of dedicating yourself to being a professional athlete.

I don't think I ever worked harder than training at age ~15-17. Like 25-28 hours a week training plus a couple of games. Always having at best slight aches, tiredness etc, and at worst hiding in the toilets before training with head in hands trying to eke out an extra five minutes because my body was screaming at me before I even got in the pool. And I did not have the work ethic to get past the level of a jr. national team "squad" member, not even a guy who played, just on the ~25-30 man squad for camps and in selection pool. I trained with/played with 5 of the guys who went to the Olympics in 2012, ~4 years after I pretty much dropped off, and all of them just had a different gear, unreal dedication (and we lost every game still). I mean, the physical challenge ofc is hard, but for me the mental aspect was harder. Constantly motivating yourself to do things you "have" to do that hurt/are physically unpleasant. I mean, I LOVED playing, but training could be complete hell.

For me working - now - ~40 hours a week requires less effort and is not as taxing, same goes for when I first left Uni and was working 45 hours with a 2 hour commute every day in a job I hated. Getting a Law degree and then a Masters degree was also easier.

Now I would counter that to a degree by saying that 28 year old me is way more equipped for the mental challenges that playing sport to a high level throws at you than I was at 15-17 (I could certainly train harder now than back then and "enjoy" it, I know my body better for one, and mentally being this age is waaaay easier than a teenager due to a fully developed brain, hormone differences etc!)... but that is the same for everyone, and the reason so many athletes drop out in their teens... but the ones who stay are generally, 90% of the time or so, guys with simply immense work ethics and mental strength, who as a teenager can push themselves to a degree that most cant. (talent of helps too!)

It prepared me really well for the "real" world though (though I am also pretty lucky to do a job I enjoy!). Discipline, self-motivation, self-respect, work-ethic etc.

 

[Curufinwe]

Getting Ghost back on the right side would be a nice bonus to Morin replacing Hagg in the lineup.

 

[deadhead]

Here's Bill M's take on the Morin situation in his blog this morning
HockeyBuzz.com - Bill Meltzer - Quick Hits: Chicago Prep, Lines, Morin, and More

Something else that works against Morin to a certain degree is that he exclusively plays the left side on any defense pair.

This is probably why Hagg beat him out initially in 2017-18 (Hextall had said all three rookies would play, and Morin would have played if he hadn't got injured). From a HC standpoint, if there isn't a clear talent gap between two players, the more versatile player will win out because it gives the HC more flexibility to deal with injuries, slumps, etc.

It works for all players, Twarynski has a better shot of returning to the NHL if he can play RW as well as LW, and it certainly makes Lindblom and Farabee more valuable. York will get to the NHL faster if he shows himself just as comfortable at RHD as LHD.

As much as AV would like to balance his team LH/RH, the reality is there are more LH players in the NHL, so LH players can gain an edge showing they're comfortable on both sides.

 

[Starat327]

My point is simply that there is no reason to feel sorry for Morin because he has some bad injury luck and hasn't got a shot at the big contract that would set him for life at a lifestyle that most, if not all of us, will never experience. At worst he spends a decade as a top AHL player, making $200-700K a year until his early 30s, then has to get a "real" job, clearing a total of $4-5 million by the time he's 35 years old. Life is hard for everyone, but it's a lot easier for those (unless they're idiots who piss away their good fortune) who don't have to face the wolf at the door. I'll save my sympathy for those who put in the dedication and work and still end up with the short end of the stick.

No, I never got one of those cushy tenured positions, they're almost impossible to get these days (academia has become a two tiered system, with a small group of tenured professors, a larger group of assistant professors who will be denied tenure and forced to leave academia or work as adjuncts at low pay and no benefits). Much of the economy these days is composed of "tournaments" where you have to not only work hard, but be lucky to find the right position at the right time (i.e. that doesn't collapse in the next recession or b/c political winds shifted). The few who get to the top prosper, the rest find themselves thrown on the street at some point - and yes, age discrimination is a bitter reality. There are millions who got crushed by the Great Recession, thrown out of work in their 50s, never to get a "real" job again. It turns out in this new economy, earnings peak in your 40s, then decline as companies push out older workers.

All of that is a fair viewpoint i guess, and I dont think Morin is expecting your sympathies. But you've really gotta start getting in the habit of saying what you mean, cause theres a world of difference between "not giving him sympathy" and the bolded below.

It's interesting to me that you talk about how unfortunate it is that there are upper tiers to education and how lower people get squeezed out of the profession after dedicating their lives to it via years of studying and learning. Yet, you've got no sympathy for a hockey player who has dedicated his life to one singular purpose as well, but has the unfortunate luck of being injured during development years, and eventually potentially being squeezed out. The player likely has even less to fall back on than someone who has gone in to the education field, but to each their own, I suppose.

This poor young man is making $2+M for 3 years, I'll save my tears.
I've barely made that for a lifetime of harder work than he'll ever see.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

"Vigneault said that he'd like to get defenseman Samuel Morin into a game"

"Morin's sunny off-ice personality -- almost always smiling, enthusiastic and optimistic -- remains the same but he has to be feeling some frustration even if he understands the situation"

Two things that trigger me pretty badly.

1. Put him the **** in then, you dumb slob.

2. No one understands the situation. No one.

 

[Starat327]

I don't think I ever worked harder than training at age ~15-17. Like 25-28 hours a week training plus a couple of games. Always having at best slight aches, tiredness etc, and at worst hiding in the toilets before training with head in hands trying to eke out an extra five minutes because my body was screaming at me before I even got in the pool. And I did not have the work ethic to get past the level of a jr. national team "squad" member, not even a guy who played, just on the ~25-30 man squad for camps and in selection pool. I trained with/played with 5 of the guys who went to the Olympics in 2012, ~4 years after I pretty much dropped off, and all of them just had a different gear, unreal dedication (and we lost every game still). I mean, the physical challenge ofc is hard, but for me the mental aspect was harder. Constantly motivating yourself to do things you "have" to do that hurt/are physically unpleasant. I mean, I LOVED playing, but training could be complete hell.

For me working - now - ~40 hours a week requires less effort and is not as taxing, same goes for when I first left Uni and was working 45 hours with a 2 hour commute every day in a job I hated. Getting a Law degree and then a Masters degree was also easier.

Now I would counter that to a degree by saying that 28 year old me is way more equipped for the mental challenges that playing sport to a high level throws at you than I was at 15-17 (I could certainly train harder now than back then and "enjoy" it, I know my body better for one, and mentally being this age is waaaay easier than a teenager due to a fully developed brain, hormone differences etc!)... but that is the same for everyone, and the reason so many athletes drop out in their teens... but the ones who stay are generally, 90% of the time or so, guys with simply immense work ethics and mental strength, who as a teenager can push themselves to a degree that most cant. (talent of helps too!)

It prepared me really well for the "real" world though (though I am also pretty lucky to do a job I enjoy!). Discipline, self-motivation, self-respect, work-ethic etc.

Agreed. There's obviously degree of mental preparation that will play a pretty huge part, but as a goalie, I was often at the rink by 4 am, and I often wouldnt get home from school and then second practice.private sessions until 730. Then it was a matter of doing schoolwork, and restarting the next day.

I think in general, there's an allure that comes with the idea of playing sports 'professionally', but very few who haven't put the time in understand all that goes in to it. It's definitely more 'Hollywood' than your typical 9 to 5, but there's so much that people don't understand about it. And for those who go on to make it a career, there's very little fall back. People like yourself who are intelligent can audible and go to Uni/College and make a separate career out of it. But your 'common' athlete is usually too dedicated to their sport to really become "educated" enough to make that transition. It's very much boom or bust for most of these guys.

 

[Appleyard]

Agreed. There's obviously degree of mental preparation that will play a pretty huge part, but as a goalie, I was often at the rink by 4 am, and I often wouldnt get home from school and then second practice.private sessions until 730. Then it was a matter of doing schoolwork, and restarting the next day.

I think in general, there's an allure that comes with the idea of playing sports 'professionally', but very few who haven't put the time in understand all that goes in to it. It's definitely more 'Hollywood' than your typical 9 to 5, but there's so much that people don't understand about it. And for those who go on to make it a career, there's very little fall back. People like yourself who are intelligent can audible and go to Uni/College and make a separate career out of it. But your 'common' athlete is usually too dedicated to their sport to really become "educated" enough to make that transition. It's very much boom or bust for most of these guys.

Yeh, I dont miss getting to the pool at 5am!

I also sometimes wonder if I had not put it on the backburner a bit at age 17 (after ACL tear, plus training so much affecting my relationship at the time) would I have actually got the grades to go to a good University and do what I wanted to... first year of our "sixth form" (age 17) I got ~BCD I believe in grades, had to argue with the academic adviser to put down my predicted grades higher than they were to get offers for the Unis I wanted (as our system works on "predicted" grades to begin with)... she ceded and I finished second year (age 18) with AAC. A big part of that was cutting down from ~24-28 hours a week training to around 12.

 

[Starat327]

Yeh, I dont miss getting to the pool at 5am!

I also sometimes wonder if I had not put it on the backburner a bit at age 17 (after ACL tear, plus training so much affecting my relationship at the time) would I have actually got the grades to go to a good University and do what I wanted to... first year of our "sixth form" (age 17) I got ~BCD I believe in grades, had to argue with the academic adviser to put down my predicted grades higher than they were to get offers for the Unis I wanted (as our system works on "predicted" grades to begin with)... she ceded and I finished second year (age 18) with AAC. A big part of that was cutting down from ~24-28 hours a week training to around 12.

Yeah, I was fairly diligent (i think, anyway) in making sure I kept myself somewhat grounded in studies through high school, because while I had dreams of 'making it', I understood the odds were pretty slim. I skipped my first year at college to pursue the dream, and it didn't work out. So i went back to community school and had to play catch up. It took me a little longer than most because my post concussion stuff was way worse back then, and I often had to drop classes, etc due to not being able to keep up. I consider myself one of the lucky ones.

 

[David St Hubbins]

Hagg is 24, I think any objective observer of NHL hockey would admit that he's at an age where he can significantly improve under the right coach, maybe not into a Norris candidate, but into a solid, reliable third pair defenseman. The same holds for Morin and Friedman. "Can" doesn't mean "will."

"False authority" is simply false, to become a NHL HC you have win an extremely competitive tournament, so it's logical to presume that generally NHL HCs have more knowledge and analytical skill (with reference to hockey judgments) than amateurs on a HF board. Doesn't mean they're always right, just that they're more likely to be right than people on this board. And HCs are far more motivated to make the right decision (their careers are on the line) than HF posters (their egos are on the line).

If three HCs conclude Hagg is a better player than Morin, odds are they're right and this board is wrong.
Same way if three HCs conclude NAK isn't a NHL starter.

Not only is it unlikely that all three are wrong, but the fact that different HCs, running different schemes, come to the same conclusion eliminates HC specific judgements (i.e. different HCs may value different qualities in players).

AV has zero commitment to Hagg (i.e. not his player, not his draft pick), so if he's playing Hagg over Morin, it's because he's concluded Hagg gives him a better chance of winning games right now. And it's not even a style thing since the two players have a similar playing style and skill set (i.e. neither is a good puck handler).

Lots of unfounded assumptions here:
1. Coaches are infallible: This is especially egregious with regards to Hak and Gordon, who demonstrated that that we subpar - at best - professional coaches. Hence the appeal to false authority
2. Decision based solely on perception of talent/ability (A): the fact that Hagg has more games almost certainly plays into the decision, and as noted above, the individuals who established the number of games played were poor examples of professional coaching. The "veteran effect" has been seen too many times to need further explanation, but maybe we could find a recent example of a forward with little upside, minimal talent, and not alot of speed being signed, promoted and played over younger, faster, and more talented players, with the reason given "veteran presence."
3. Decision based solely on perception of talent/ability (B): installing a new system puts a large number of variables into play. To properly diagnose problems and drive improvement, minimizing these variables and addressing the higher (perceived) priority/value issues is fundamental to any change management exercise and transcends sports. Ergo, it is not uncommon to not address an under-performing, short runway employee so long as their are bigger fish to fry. The perception that "it's only a #6 d" slot while the PP, PK, transition, etc. are in need to attention would lead towards benign neglect. Again, this is common across the world, regardless of industry. It is also the only justification I accept for keeping Hagg in place.
4. AV "has concluded": you dont know what he has concluded. None of us do. But, as he is quoted as saying he'd like to get Morin in games, it seems any "conclusion" is temporary and based on something other than "Hagg is better than Morin." Perhaps the points I raised above.

Note: While I can understand argument 3, I think it's wrong because improving on Hagg would positively impact the offense (Ghost back while Hagg in low, driving the net, of Hagg firing shots into shinpads, etc., plus being able to ditch Stewie for an actually talented player since Morin can police things), the PK (Morin's wingspan and strength in clearing the porch), and transition (Morin was easily as good as Hagg in puck movement at LV, so reasonable to expect as good or better at NHL level, given playing time).

And as for Hagg developing further, what aspects of his game do you think show runway? Speed? Offensive ability? Intelligence? Is he showing flashes of brilliance (or just significnatly better play) that can become more consistent? Does he make periodic mistakes that show signs of abating? Because at age 24, the first 2 arent gonna improve. The 3rd might, but hasnt shown to be improving much, if at all. And as to flashes of brilliance (which Provorov, Sanheim and Ghost all show) or avoiding mistakes (which Ghost has shown uneven growth in, and Provorov and Sanheim both have significantly shown), Hagg hasnt shown it.

Like I said, he is what he is - highly replaceable. Morin might be a solid, mean, top end PKer that fills out the bottom pair and keeps jackasses from running G, Ghost, TK and the other skills players. It's time we found out.

 

[MorgantiDrinksBlood]

Yeh, I dont miss getting to the pool at 5am!

I also sometimes wonder if I had not put it on the backburner a bit at age 17 (after ACL tear, plus training so much affecting my relationship at the time) would I have actually got the grades to go to a good University and do what I wanted to... first year of our "sixth form" (age 17) I got ~BCD I believe in grades, had to argue with the academic adviser to put down my predicted grades higher than they were to get offers for the Unis I wanted (as our system works on "predicted" grades to begin with)... she ceded and I finished second year (age 18) with AAC. A big part of that was cutting down from ~24-28 hours a week training to around 12.

I love you low-key. I also respect you so much and you're a bit horrifying because i'd never try to get in an argument. You answered my last post about advanced stats, thanks i read it! wtf how do you know all this shit!?!?! What are your thoughts on Hagg vs Morin, do you think we should give Morin a shot at the pro-level or is Hagg earning his 6 spot? Help!?!?!

 

[phillydownsouth]

I don't think I ever worked harder than training at age ~15-17. Like 25-28 hours a week training plus a couple of games. Always having at best slight aches, tiredness etc, and at worst hiding in the toilets before training with head in hands trying to eke out an extra five minutes because my body was screaming at me before I even got in the pool. And I did not have the work ethic to get past the level of a jr. national team "squad" member, not even a guy who played, just on the ~25-30 man squad for camps and in selection pool. I trained with/played with 5 of the guys who went to the Olympics in 2012, ~4 years after I pretty much dropped off, and all of them just had a different gear, unreal dedication (and we lost every game still). I mean, the physical challenge ofc is hard, but for me the mental aspect was harder. Constantly motivating yourself to do things you "have" to do that hurt/are physically unpleasant. I mean, I LOVED playing, but training could be complete hell.

For me working - now - ~40 hours a week requires less effort and is not as taxing, same goes for when I first left Uni and was working 45 hours with a 2 hour commute every day in a job I hated. Getting a Law degree and then a Masters degree was also easier.

Now I would counter that to a degree by saying that 28 year old me is way more equipped for the mental challenges that playing sport to a high level throws at you than I was at 15-17 (I could certainly train harder now than back then and "enjoy" it, I know my body better for one, and mentally being this age is waaaay easier than a teenager due to a fully developed brain, hormone differences etc!)... but that is the same for everyone, and the reason so many athletes drop out in their teens... but the ones who stay are generally, 90% of the time or so, guys with simply immense work ethics and mental strength, who as a teenager can push themselves to a degree that most cant. (talent of helps too!)

It prepared me really well for the "real" world though (though I am also pretty lucky to do a job I enjoy!). Discipline, self-motivation, self-respect, work-ethic etc.

bender

 

[Appleyard]

I love you low-key. I also respect you so much and you're a bit horrifying because i'd never try to get in an argument. You answered my last post about advanced stats, thanks i read it! wtf how do you know all this ****!?!?! What are your thoughts on Hagg vs Morin, do you think we should give Morin a shot at the pro-level or is Hagg earning his 6 spot? Help!?!?!

Haha, thanks. But if people have a differing opinion I would always say state it! As I might be wrong about something tbh, or a counter point might make me think of something I overlooked etc.

As for the stats, when I was 16-17 I intended to be an aerodynamicist. So have a decent foundation in Maths, neglected it a lot once I realised my ability in terms of Maths+Physics was not good enough to pursue that career, but then worked a decent amount with SPSS doing some statistical modelling during Masters degree (on crime) and then in a research role once graduated. I would not consider myself an expert in stats etc, as tbh I don't do too much myself in that area anymore as it is time consuming and can be boring, and my job now does not require it, so don't practice enough to remain current. But that base knowledge+love of hockey means feel pretty confident for the most part with hockey stats+interpreting them.



As for Morin vs Hägg. I think Morin is likely the better player. He was better in the AHL for me when they played together, and he is a better skater than Hägg who is more aggressive at the blue-line and arguably has slightly better puck-skills. Plus in his limited NHL sample he has done a solid job. I dont think he has more upside at this point than a solid - if unique - #5, but Hägg at his best so far has been a passable #6, and at his worst replacement level.

That being said Hägg has had an okay start to the season. I think a decent amount of that is being paired with Ghost (who has actually always brought Hägg's numbers to a respectable level), and getting a lot easier minutes than usual, but he has not made too many mistakes, and while for me he has been the Flyers worst D this year I CAN understand why they have not taken him out, even if that would not be my decision and I dont think his play is super sustainable.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Really wish NHL coaches didn’t have some sort of superstitious view on rotating guys out of the lineup. Scratching Hagg for Morin isn’t going to make the team spiral out of control

 

[deadhead]

All of that is a fair viewpoint i guess, and I dont think Morin is expecting your sympathies. But you've really gotta start getting in the habit of saying what you mean, cause theres a world of difference between "not giving him sympathy" and the bolded below.

It's interesting to me that you talk about how unfortunate it is that there are upper tiers to education and how lower people get squeezed out of the profession after dedicating their lives to it via years of studying and learning. Yet, you've got no sympathy for a hockey player who has dedicated his life to one singular purpose as well, but has the unfortunate luck of being injured during development years, and eventually potentially being squeezed out. The player likely has even less to fall back on than someone who has gone in to the education field, but to each their own, I suppose.

I'll save the sympathy for the minor league baseball players who give it their all and hit 30 broke with no future in baseball.
Or the college football players who are pushed to the limit and discouraged from "wasting" time doing school work when they need extensive remedial help just to get to a 12th grade level. Then find out they're not NFL material. Same with basketball players.

Hockey players who get a cup of coffee in the NHL and are solid AHL players can have a good life, playing the game they love, and making a few million dollars - TJ Brennan is doing all right.
It's the guys who never get past the ECHL who hit 30 with few life options.

Relative to "real people," Morin has it made in the shade, it's only relative to his peers that he's had bad luck.

 

[Starat327]

I'll save the sympathy for the minor league baseball players who give it their all and hit 30 broke with no future in baseball.
Or the college football players who are pushed to the limit and discouraged from "wasting" time doing school work when they need extensive remedial help just to get to a 12th grade level. Then find out they're not NFL material. Same with basketball players.

Hockey players who get a cup of coffee in the NHL and are solid AHL players can have a good life, playing the game they love, and making a few million dollars - TJ Brennan is doing all right.
It's the guys who never get past the ECHL who hit 30 with few life options.

Relative to "real people," Morin has it made in the shade, it's only relative to his peers that he's had bad luck.

Yeah... again, this isnt about where your sympathies lie. Literally nobody cares. It's about you having this completely and utterly bogus idea that isnt even remotely objective that you've somehow worked harder to get where you have than Morin will ever work in his life. Again, you clearly have no idea what rigors a professional athlete goes through to get where they are and the sacrifices they make to get there. Is his end result better than yours? Maybe, if you believe in comparing peoples lives.

But you have approximately 0 right to presume how much work Morin has put in to get where he is, or the amount of work he'll continue to put in to make it as an NHL regular.

I'm actually embarrassed for you after reading your comments in this thread. The level of self righteousness needed to presume someone who you don't even know's level of effort and how inferior it is to yours is...something else.

 

[deadhead]

Lots of unfounded assumptions here:
1. Coaches are infallible: This is especially egregious with regards to Hak and Gordon, who demonstrated that that we subpar - at best - professional coaches. Hence the appeal to false authority
2. Decision based solely on perception of talent/ability (A): the fact that Hagg has more games almost certainly plays into the decision, and as noted above, the individuals who established the number of games played were poor examples of professional coaching. The "veteran effect" has been seen too many times to need further explanation, but maybe we could find a recent example of a forward with little upside, minimal talent, and not alot of speed being signed, promoted and played over younger, faster, and more talented players, with the reason given "veteran presence."
3. Decision based solely on perception of talent/ability (B): installing a new system puts a large number of variables into play. To properly diagnose problems and drive improvement, minimizing these variables and addressing the higher (perceived) priority/value issues is fundamental to any change management exercise and transcends sports. Ergo, it is not uncommon to not address an under-performing, short runway employee so long as their are bigger fish to fry. The perception that "it's only a #6 d" slot while the PP, PK, transition, etc. are in need to attention would lead towards benign neglect. Again, this is common across the world, regardless of industry. It is also the only justification I accept for keeping Hagg in place.
4. AV "has concluded": you dont know what he has concluded. None of us do. But, as he is quoted as saying he'd like to get Morin in games, it seems any "conclusion" is temporary and based on something other than "Hagg is better than Morin." Perhaps the points I raised above.

Note: While I can understand argument 3, I think it's wrong because improving on Hagg would positively impact the offense (Ghost back while Hagg in low, driving the net, of Hagg firing shots into shinpads, etc., plus being able to ditch Stewie for an actually talented player since Morin can police things), the PK (Morin's wingspan and strength in clearing the porch), and transition (Morin was easily as good as Hagg in puck movement at LV, so reasonable to expect as good or better at NHL level, given playing time).

And as for Hagg developing further, what aspects of his game do you think show runway? Speed? Offensive ability? Intelligence? Is he showing flashes of brilliance (or just significnatly better play) that can become more consistent? Does he make periodic mistakes that show signs of abating? Because at age 24, the first 2 arent gonna improve. The 3rd might, but hasnt shown to be improving much, if at all. And as to flashes of brilliance (which Provorov, Sanheim and Ghost all show) or avoiding mistakes (which Ghost has shown uneven growth in, and Provorov and Sanheim both have significantly shown), Hagg hasnt shown it.

Like I said, he is what he is - highly replaceable. Morin might be a solid, mean, top end PKer that fills out the bottom pair and keeps jackasses from running G, Ghost, TK and the other skills players. It's time we found out.

1) you totally misunderstand the point about coaches - it's not that they're infallible, it's that they're specialists who won a very competitive contest (actually a series of contests to get various jobs) so it's almost certain their judgment is superior to anyone posting on a HF Board, no matter how convinced that poster is of his infallibility. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes, doctors make mistakes but I'll take professional medical advice over my neighbor's opinion. And when 3 different HC's have a similar opinion about a player, it's extremely unlikely this board knows better.

2) veteran presence is a cliche used for the media, it has more to do with veterans actually knowing what they're doing, fans are often ignorant of mistakes in any sport b/c they don't know what the player was coached to do, sometimes a rookie will screw up, get lucky and fans think it was a great play. This feeds into (3) better a reliable but limited veteran over a talented but erratic rookie when you don't have an established scheme where veterans are comfortable and can cover for rookie mistakes. Hagg wins ties over Morin for that reason (but not if Morin was actually clearly superior), and Stewart wins over Twarynski. Stewart wins over Pitlick only b/c Pitlick missed a month of practice and is behind picking up the schemes and probably in his conditioning. Myers is a different issue, he obviously was making repeated mistakes, he had to have really pissed off AV to get demoted.

4) I go by "revealed preference." Hagg has played every game, so that's pretty obvious. Doesn't mean it's Hagg's job, far from it, if one thing is obvious, no one's job is safe on this team (ok, Couts, Hayes, TK, Lindblom, Provorov and Niskanen can sleep easy). AV can say all the nice things about Morin, but the litmus test is when he gets into games, and the judgment on his play will be whether he gets into more games.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Morin has always been clearly superior. He was only sent back down because Hextall wanted him to feel like he earned it. Recall that Berube wanted him on the roster.

Then after that Hagg had "veteran presence."

The whole process has been a man-high heap of rotting moles. The textbook guide for how not to develop talent or rebuild via draft.

 

[deadhead]

Yeah... again, this isnt about where your sympathies lie. Literally nobody cares. It's about you having this completely and utterly bogus idea that isnt even remotely objective that you've somehow worked harder to get where you have than Morin will ever work in his life. Again, you clearly have no idea what rigors a professional athlete goes through to get where they are and the sacrifices they make to get there. Is his end result better than yours? Maybe, if you believe in comparing peoples lives.

But you have approximately 0 right to presume how much work Morin has put in to get where he is, or the amount of work he'll continue to put in to make it as an NHL regular.

I'm actually embarrassed for you after reading your comments in this thread. The level of self righteousness needed to presume someone who you don't even know's level of effort and how inferior it is to yours is...something else.

You're projecting something your life that I have no interest in knowing.

My point was simply that Morin is going to be financially secure for life, so whether he doesn't get to make in the NHL and make mega-bucks simply isn't something that I consider life changing, he'll still play the game he loves and make enough money to retire at 35 if he so wishes (just not in a mansion). It's like a musician that doesn't make it big but still sells enough tickets in mid-sized venues to have a nice life, too bad he didn't get his big break, but he's not 40 driving an econoline van to small clubs and barely making gas money.

The guys who have it tough are the ones who almost make it but can't even get a series of two way contracts and make a living at hockey, or who have devastating injuries that end their pro career before it starts.

"Is a dream a lie if it don't come true. Or is it something worse?"