The All-Encompassing Mike Gillis Thread - Part II

[mriswith]

Hodgson is still a significantly better player than Kassian right now. That's a terrible trade, and he was easily worth far more at the time too. Still is.

I would never undo that trade and Kassian is looking like he'll eventually make it as a top 6 winger, which is a huge win for us.

The problem with that trade was always the type of return, rather than the amount we got. We should have packaged Cody for something to help win now, rather than trading our one young chip for an even younger player that wasn't going to contribute to the current core.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Booth was nothing special with us before he got injured. He was on what, a 40 to 45 point pace? Serviceable? Yes. Good? Nope. And not even worth the salary at that rate. Not in those days anyway. It was a bad trade, no matter how you slice it.

Hodgson is still a significantly better player than Kassian right now. That's a terrible trade, and he was easily worth far more at the time too. Still is.

Please explain how Hodgson is a "significantly better player than Kassian". This should be interesting.

That 40-45 point pace Booth was heading towards 23 goals. His direct style was also a reason he was brought in. Are 23 goal PWFs common place in the NHL?

 

[Raincouver]

He's talking Minny and the Burke/Nonis teams. Their teams only made the second round twice, odd that Gillis has a much higher standard.

Gillis has one playoff win in the past three years.


Dave Nonis missed the playoffs twice in his 3 years.



How many years can Gillis' teams be awful for before we stop saying "BUT 2011!!!!!!!!!!"


Saying Gillis is a good GM because his team was good in 2011 is like voting Republican because they used to have Lincoln. Since then, he has had 3 offseasons as well as in-season deals, coaching changes, etc, and the team has gone from Game 7 of the Cup Final to missing the playoffs on his watch. The Canucks have gotten revenue from 3 playoff home games in 3 seasons. Aquilini can't be happy about that.

 

[Raincouver]

Please explain how Hodgson is a "significantly better player than Kassian". This should be interesting.

That 40-45 point pace Booth was heading towards 23 goals. His direct style was also a reason he was brought in. Are 23 goal PWFs common place in the NHL?

David Booth ain't one of them.

 

[Bleach Clean]

David Booth ain't one of them.

We are projecting his performance that year, before his knee on knee hit, not the one now. You are missing the context.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Hodgson is still a significantly better player than Kassian right now.

uh...no he isn't.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Hodgson is still a significantly better player than Kassian right now. That's a terrible trade, and he was easily worth far more at the time too. Still is.

Nope.

Obviously you have not watched him play in Buffalo. Hodgson is a disaster as a centre and now they are trying to cover his major defensive liabilities by moving him to the the wing.

Defense is a huge negative in Hodgson’s game and according to Nolan, playing on the wing may help, “He’s not known for his great defense and we don’t want him to play great defense, we want him to score offensively, but you have to be reliable defensively and one thing about the wing position, it’s not as complicated as playing center ice.â€
...
Hodgson has been in a prolonged slump with no goals and two assists in 11 games. Overall he has 16 goals and 20 assists for 36 points in 63 games.​

http://www.wgr550.com/pages/18694591.php?contentType=4&contentId=14963197

 

[I in the Eye]

Nope.

Obviously you have not watched him play in Buffalo. Hodgson is a disaster as a centre and now they are trying to cover his major defensive liabilities by moving him to the the wing.

Defense is a huge negative in Hodgson’s game and according to Nolan, playing on the wing may help, “He’s not known for his great defense and we don’t want him to play great defense, we want him to score offensively, but you have to be reliable defensively and one thing about the wing position, it’s not as complicated as playing center ice.â€
...
Hodgson has been in a prolonged slump with no goals and two assists in 11 games. Overall he has 16 goals and 20 assists for 36 points in 63 games.​

http://www.wgr550.com/pages/18694591.php?contentType=4&contentId=14963197

Wasn't Hodgson tried as a winger here, and it didn't work all that well? That was part of the problem, if I recall correctly. As a center, Hodgson wasn't going to displace Kesler, and yet, Hodgson couldn't play in the top 6 because he wasn't effective as a winger.

 

[Wisp]

Hodgson wasn't fast enough to play wing when he was hear. He did get faster in Buffalo after putting some distance from his back injury.

 

[Upoil]

People can make all the excuses they want and dissect all the moves but at the end of the day the ONLY thing that matters is that Mike Gillis has won 1 playoff game in three years. Between June 15th 2011 and mid April 2015 Gillis will have ONE playoff game victory. He has failed miserably at his job.

In 6 years on the job he's made it out of the second round 1 time, while spending right up to the cap with a core many considered to be very good(he didn't even have to build it) and now is apparently re-tooling us, well he's got the tool part right.

Althought I don't disagree with you, why do you quite obviously fail to mention the best two years in franchise history? I agree the last couple haven't been a waltz but you are quite obviously avoiding the positives that are coincided with GMMG's reign.

A level handed assessment this is not.

 

[Upoil]

Gillis has one playoff win in the past three years.


Dave Nonis missed the playoffs twice in his 3 years.



How many years can Gillis' teams be awful for before we stop saying "BUT 2011!!!!!!!!!!"


Saying Gillis is a good GM because his team was good in 2011 is like voting Republican because they used to have Lincoln. Since then, he has had 3 offseasons as well as in-season deals, coaching changes, etc, and the team has gone from Game 7 of the Cup Final to missing the playoffs on his watch. The Canucks have gotten revenue from 3 playoff home games in 3 seasons. Aquilini can't be happy about that.

I am sorry you aren't satisfied.

Some of us didn't jump on the bandwagon during/after the most current cup run.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Hodgson wasn't fast enough to play wing when he was hear. He did get faster in Buffalo after putting some distance from his back injury.

In the games I have watched he is just as slow as when he was in Vancouver after he rehabbed his injury.

 

[Zarpan]

Booth was nothing special with us before he got injured. He was on what, a 40 to 45 point pace? Serviceable? Yes. Good? Nope. And not even worth the salary at that rate. Not in those days anyway. It was a bad trade, no matter how you slice it.

Hodgson is still a significantly better player than Kassian right now. That's a terrible trade, and he was easily worth far more at the time too. Still is.

Nah, Hodgson hasn't been anywhere near as good as I thought he'd be. He's putting up numbers similar to Booth before Booth got injured. 50 to 55 point pace while playing 20% more minutes per game than Booth did in his first season, so the points per 60 minutes are equivalent. Not to mention he had top linemates before Buffalo traded everyone, and gets lots of PP time. Hodgson also bring nothing to the table other than offence (not physical, weak board play, etc...) and is a minus minus minus defensive player. I suppose you could say that Hodgson is serviceable, but not good. I'd take pre-knee injury Booth over current Hodgson actually.

Plus if you figure Hodgson would have demanded the same sort of contract here, you're significantly overpaying for a serviceable player.

 

[me2]

Gillis has one playoff win in the past three years.


Dave Nonis missed the playoffs twice in his 3 years.

Nonis missed the playoffs twice with a team that should have been entering its prime.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the team bounce back or flop again next year, the team has exited it's prime. Gillis is in a different situation where missing the playoffs is more understandable.

 

[Royal Canuck]

In the games I have watched he is just as slow as when he was in Vancouver after he rehabbed his injury.

Yeah, Hodgson is still just as slow as he was in Vancouver.

However, his hockey IQ has increased since leaving, and including that with added TOI, his numbers have risen.

 

[torlev*]

Nah, Hodgson hasn't been anywhere near as good as I thought he'd be. He's putting up numbers similar to Booth before Booth got injured. 50 to 55 point pace while playing 20% more minutes per game than Booth did in his first season, so the points per 60 minutes are equivalent. Not to mention he had top linemates before Buffalo traded everyone, and gets lots of PP time. Hodgson also bring nothing to the table other than offence (not physical, weak board play, etc...) and is a minus minus minus defensive player. I suppose you could say that Hodgson is serviceable, but not good. I'd take pre-knee injury Booth over current Hodgson actually.

Plus if you figure Hodgson would have demanded the same sort of contract here, you're significantly overpaying for a serviceable player.

I never claimed he was good. But people calling Kassian better? He's a bottom six plug. Yes defense matters, (not that Kassian is great either at it) but you want some kind of production from a top six guy and Kassian produces at this pount like a fourth liner. Hes 23, and his career best is 26 points, likely to end up around 30. That's not remotely close to top six production.

 

[Tiranis]

I never claimed he was good. But people calling Kassian better? He's a bottom six plug. Yes defense matters, (not that Kassian is great either at it) but you want some kind of production from a top six guy and Kassian produces at this pount like a fourth liner. Hes 23, and his career best is 26 points, likely to end up around 30. That's not remotely close to top six production.

His ES production is better than Hodgson's — 21 points for Hodgson VS 25 for Kassian. He doesn't play on the PP, through no fault of his own.

At this stage, Hodgson is worth very little. He's so bad defensively that he had to be moved to the wing and with his production, he's basically a Chris Higgins who is less versatile but getting paid almost double.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I never claimed he was good. But people calling Kassian better? He's a bottom six plug. Yes defense matters, (not that Kassian is great either at it) but you want some kind of production from a top six guy and Kassian produces at this pount like a fourth liner. Hes 23, and his career best is 26 points, likely to end up around 30. That's not remotely close to top six production.

Who called Kassian better? This claim wasn't made.

I asked you to prove: "Hodgson is a significantly better player than Kassian". Please elaborate and show the logic behind that assertion.

Defense definitely matters when you are talking about a player who was once ranked the 6th worst defensive player in the entire NHL (over 70 games). Yes, it matters a lot. It's just not as easily quantified so it gets brushed aside. What good is a higher production rate if the same player is bleeding goals faster than he produces? (Lupul anyone?)

And on production: Kassian has outpaced Hodgson at ES this year, getting 25 points to Hodgson's 21 ES points... This, with 3rd line level linemates and 2:35~ less ice per game. Yet, one guy is a 'top6er' and the other a "bottom 6 plug"? Indeed.

The difference is opportunity on the PP. Hodgson has garnered 17 PPPs in 171:10 total PP time, 2:45 avg per game. Kassian only has 1 PPP while averaging only 0:38 PP time per game (mostly 2nd unit), 43:08 in total PP time. In other words, Hodgson gets almost 4 times as much time 5on4. This, coupled with Hodgson getting 1st unit action, leads to the discrepancy in their production.


Edit: And Tiranis beats me to it...

 

[Lundface*]

I never claimed he was good. But people calling Kassian better? He's a bottom six plug. Yes defense matters, (not that Kassian is great either at it) but you want some kind of production from a top six guy and Kassian produces at this pount like a fourth liner. Hes 23, and his career best is 26 points, likely to end up around 30. That's not remotely close to top six production.

You have very little sense if you can't understand that Kassian is trending up. He has improved a ton this season, and looks like he's on the verge of breaking out. Hodgson has stagnated and though everyone desperately wanted him to move quicker, looks like he simply can't. Give it a few more years and Kassian will be the more valuable asset. I liked Hodgson and wasn't happy he was let go especially since he was breaking out...but I'll admit I was wrong since he has improved very little since that time.

Try and imagine Hodgson in the playoffs against Getzlaf, Thornton, Kopitar etc he would be badly exposed. And it isn't like you can hide him on the wing he doesn't have the speed to do that. He's a pp specialist at this point in his career....very talented offensively but terrible defensively.....as a center you can't have that.

 

[dave babych returns]

Yeah, Hodgson is still just as slow as he was in Vancouver.

However, his hockey IQ has increased since leaving, and including that with added TOI, his numbers have risen.

I thought it was interesting in the article someone posted in Around the League about his position change, Cody was quoted basically saying that on the wing you don't have to be around the puck as much and you can get a head start on the play - iirc his issue was always that while his top speed was not bad his first few steps and acceleration were really poor.

If that's still the case and if this move allows him to take those first few strides in less crucial circumstances (away from the puck) more often then it will be interesting to see how it works out.

 

[tantalum]

In the games I have watched he is just as slow as when he was in Vancouver after he rehabbed his injury.

Agreed. I don't see much of an improvement in his speed. More importantly I see nothing in the way of improvement in his acceleration which has always been an issue. It compounds his already apparent defensive deficiencies because any offensive player can get a quick step on him in the zone. It allows the opposition to get open far too easily.

If I'm Hodgson I'd be a bit "worried". A move like this coupled with an extension for the coach says "we don't want you at center, and really aren't sure we see a future for you in this organization at center". He needs to adapt or it'll change to a simple "we don't want you".

Could be an interesting summer for the Hodgson camp in discussing the future of their 45 point pace superstar.

 

[Zarpan]

I never claimed he was good. But people calling Kassian better? He's a bottom six plug. Yes defense matters, (not that Kassian is great either at it) but you want some kind of production from a top six guy and Kassian produces at this pount like a fourth liner. Hes 23, and his career best is 26 points, likely to end up around 30. That's not remotely close to top six production.

If the Canucks had needed to put Kassian in a top six position, he'd probably end up around 40 points just from the increased ice time. Maybe not great for a top 6 player right now, but Hodgson is barely better offensively.

If you gave Kassian the same time on ice as Hodgson, here's what their stats would look like:

Kassian: 18 goals and 18 assists for 36 points in 1177 minutes.
Hodgson: 17 goals and 21 assists for 38 points in 1177 minutes.

So Hodgson has certainly not been "significantly better" this season.

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

If the Canucks had needed to put Kassian in a top six position, he'd probably end up around 40 points just from the increased ice time. Maybe not great for a top 6 player right now, but Hodgson is barely better offensively.

If you gave Kassian the same time on ice as Hodgson, here's what their stats would look like:

Kassian: 18 goals and 18 assists for 36 points in 1177 minutes.
Hodgson: 17 goals and 21 assists for 38 points in 1177 minutes.

So Hodgson has certainly not been "significantly better" this season.

That's flawed. Hodgson gets first unit pp time. Kassian gets no pp time. Pus, he's played most of his time on the third line.

 

[Tiranis]

I thought it was interesting in the article someone posted in Around the League about his position change, Cody was quoted basically saying that on the wing you don't have to be around the puck as much and you can get a head start on the play - iirc his issue was always that while his top speed was not bad his first few steps and acceleration were really poor.

If that's still the case and if this move allows him to take those first few strides in less crucial circumstances (away from the puck) more often then it will be interesting to see how it works out.

His defensive issues have in large part stemmed from getting that head start despite playing center. He cheats out of the zone more than any center (that I know of) in the NHL. I doubt this helps him in any way other than not being as much of a liability defensively.

 

[dave babych returns]

Yeah I suppose it's more accurate to say the move will shelter the team (to some extent) from the repercussions of what he's already doing, moreso than that it enables him to do anything new.