THE All Encompassing Jim Benning Thread Part III (Mod Post #175, 464, 625)

[TheWanderer]

Thanks for coming out.



Every topic has already been beaten to death. Most of us repeat ourselves daily on the same subject.

But the beat must go on

e/ wow I'm tired, grammatical errors.

I'd better watch out for PETA, then, because apparently I'm beating a lot of senseless horses.

 

[VanillaCoke]

I feel like the Garrison discussion has been beaten to death like a dead horse... it can only be resolved on ice. If Vey and Sbisa provide some decent flow and chemistry for this team, that's more than can be said about Garrison.

It has for sure.
I'm just so angry at it I can't let it
go.
And when ppl try to rationalize it with cap space and such fodder it really grinds my gears.

If garrison never made it to ufa and gillis got him and two other pieces for a late second it would be hailed as one of the greatest trades in franchise history

 

[MS]

Yes it is. Garrison was moved because we have too many LH D on larger contracts and a weak RH 3rd pairing. So they dump Garrison and proceed to race out and grab another LH D on a $2m+ contract. We shifted out Garrison and replaced him with Ballard 2.0. Between Ballard 2.0 and yet another LH D (which was a balance problem supposedly) it made no sense. I think people would be more forgiving of Sbisa, struggling player and all, if he was a RH/RS D.

Exactly.

If Sbisa were a RHS and/or on a reasonable-value deal, fair enough. Not a great player but decent defensive depth.

But he's horribly overpaid, plays the wrong side, and if he pushes Stanton to the sidelines after what Stanton showed last year ... it's just ridiculous.

__________

Going back to square 1, though, the bigger problem is that Linden/Benning identified the wrong player to move in the first place. Should have been Edler on the first bus out of town.

 

[TheWanderer]

Exactly.

If Sbisa were a RHS and/or on a reasonable-value deal, fair enough. Not a great player but decent defensive depth.

But he's horribly overpaid, plays the wrong side, and if he pushes Stanton to the sidelines after what Stanton showed last year ... it's just ridiculous.

__________

Going back to square 1, though, the bigger problem is that Linden/Benning identified the wrong player to move in the first place. Should have been Edler on the first bus out of town.

Ugh, don't get me started on Edler... I could fill another page of thread topics...

 

[VanillaCoke]

Atleast Edler can't possibly have a worse season....

 

[TheWanderer]

At least Edler can't possibly have a worse season....

Yeah, but whoever his partner is could because of him...

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

"Likely inferred" and "I sincerely doubt".

Again, things you feel could be extremely inaccurate. Nobody knows what went on in the negotiations. It's laughable when people say "Benning could have got more or he could have got X player". Unless you were on the phone with the GMs, it's pure baseless speculation.

When you're trying to get younger, it's always going to be risky because you don't know how young players are going to turn out. They might be great but they also might bust, you have to live with that. You can't acquire young players who already look good, those are usually way too expensive.

Indeed they could. I never disputed that fact, hence the reason I worded it the way I did. Without knowing the precise details of what went on, we can only assess what we do know and make speculative opinions based off that information. Benning's remarks subsequent to the trade imply he was interested in Bonino from the onset and with the near constant reminder we were not rebuilding, but re-tooling. It stands as a prime example of more likelier than not, thus the opinion.

In layman's terms. I am critical of Benning's moves now because he has not provided me any reason to the contrary. If Bonino's success last season is not an anomaly or Sbisa does become a capable top four defenseman, then my opinion will defer. Likewise, it will further deteriorate if Garrison goes on to have an excellent season and/or Santorelli outperforms Bonino.

 

[TheWanderer]

It's pretty reasonable to feel neutral about the situation - a lot of change has occurred. (mod)

 

[F A N]

Yes it is. Garrison was moved because we have too many LH D on larger contracts and a weak RH 3rd pairing. So they dump Garrison and proceed to race out and grab another LH D on a $2m+ contract. We shifted out Garrison and replaced him with Ballard 2.0. Between Ballard 2.0 and yet another LH D (which was a balance problem supposedly) it made no sense. I think people would be more forgiving of Sbisa, struggling player and all, if he was a RH/RS D.

What makes sense is to plan for the future. We knew that if Edler was staying Garrison was likely the odd man out if one of our defensemen making $4M+ needed to be moved. Benning also saved the owners $1.5M by dealing Garrison before his signing bonus kicks in.

Benning likes physical defensemen on his bottom pairings. Sbisa fits that description. Depth is good, but not every GM likes having 5 defensemen making top 4 money. If Benning likes Tanev and intends to lock him up by the end of next summer, then naturally Benning knows the type of money required to get Tanev signed. There is a significant difference between a $4.6M cap hit for a #5 defenseman and even a $3M cap hit.

Sbisa isn't Ballard 2.0. Ballard is small. Sbisa is big. As Benning likes to say, Sbisa "plays a heavy game."

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Sbisa isn't Ballard 2.0. Ballard is small. Sbisa is big. As Benning likes to say, Sbisa "plays a heavy game."

I am not sure how effective Sbisa's "heavy game" is. He lost his spot on the roster to Bryan Allen, a "heavy game" player who is past his prime, has no knees left, can't skate and brings absolutely zero offensive ability to the table.

Allen ended up playing 13 playoff games to Sbisa's 2.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I think there is a bit if a disconnect with Edler vs Garrison and who should have been moved. Everything we read says that GM's are high on Edler and want to acquire him. Garrison was prepared to go to two teams and only one wanted him. That tells me that Edler has higher value among NHL GM's. You can argue whether it's justified given his play but guys who assess talent for a living place a higher value in Edler.

 

[Shareefruck]

I place higher value on Edler as well, personally. His value is low relative to where it should be, and I do feel that Edler can turn it around (at least enough to get his value up, anyways)

Personally, I don't think Garrison was much of a fit even when he was playing well.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

Going back to square 1, though, the bigger problem is that Linden/Benning identified the wrong player to move in the first place. Should have been Edler on the first bus out of town.

Take out Edler and throw Garrison onto the defense with Sbisa and you have no offensive ability to speak of on the backend. A complete dearth of talent.

Trying to play a fast, up-tempo system with that collection would be a nightmare. As good as Garrison is defensively, he's not suited to play the system the Canucks will look to integrate over the next few years.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

I think there is a bit if a disconnect with Edler vs Garrison and who should have been moved. Everything we read says that GM's are high on Edler and want to acquire him. Garrison was prepared to go to two teams and only one wanted him. That tells me that Edler has higher value among NHL GM's. You can argue whether it's justified given his play but guys who assess talent for a living place a higher value in Edler.

Actually, he waived for three teams: Florida, Tampa and Montreal. Only Florida passed and we dealt him to Tampa because Montreal was trying to negotiate.

 

[moog35]

Apology accepted.

I know what Benning ****ing said. And that is he wanted bonino and luca "top 4 D" sbisa.
When there were better options available.
There's no way ANA wouldn't trade a rookie small 4th round pick defender and a 1st for kesler if Benning had targeted such.

Keeping bonino to play with kesler is better for ANA
Keeping sbisa instead of signing a plug like stoner is better for ANA.
They also have Theodore who can fill vatanens hole.

Benning just wanted odd players from them.

He said that in a 30 second Canucks promo video, of course he's gonna say he's targeting the players that are being acquired and then say something nice about them.

Who were the better options left on the table? You must know exactly who they are based on how good you are at analyzing a couple of clips or interviews with Benning

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Actually, he waived for three teams: Florida, Tampa and Montreal. Only Florida passed and we dealt him to Tampa because Montreal was trying to negotiate.

Montreal was trying to negotiate a lower cost than a 2nd round pick?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Montreal was trying to negotiate a lower cost than a 2nd round pick?

Montreal didn't have a 2nd because of the Vanek trade. So I suspect they were trying to parley a prospect or defer to 2015. It's also possible they wanted us to take Gorges back given they were heavily shopping him a week later.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Unrelated to the above, but this is interesting for those who haven't seen it.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

I am trying to word this without veering into ad hominem territory, but you listen to how Benning talks and ... forget about how he is relative to other GM's, he just doesn't come across as a bright human being.

"Boninio scored 22 goals last year so if he scores 20 goals for us...he gives us goals." Thanks Jim. I am holding out hope that he's just not the best speaker, but it's painful to listen to these sound bits.

Dear Lord what has happened to this Franchise. And how many players did we acquire just because "the coach" likes him? And man, I just remembered our coach is a 65-year old NHL rookie. The more I think about this team the more depressed I get. Sadface.

 

[LiquidSnake]

If you don't get it by now then there's no point in me wasting anymore time on it.

I'd also like to hear how Yzerman is a great GM.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I am trying to word this without veering into ad hominem territory, but you listen to how Benning talks and ... forget about how he is relative to other GM's, he just doesn't come across as a bright human being.

"Boninio scored 22 goals last year so if he scores 20 goals for us...he gives us goals." Thanks Jim. I am holding out hope that he's just not the best speaker, but it's painful to listen to these sound bits.

Dear Lord what has happened to this Franchise. And how many players did we acquire just because "the coach" likes him? And man, I just remembered our coach is a 65-year old NHL rookie. The more I think about this team the more depressed I get. Sadface.

I feel exactly the opposite.
I feel that this franchise has really started moving in the right direction after a couple of years of drifting in no mans land. Last year was the worst season of Canucks hockey I've watched and not just because we were bad but because we were boring as hell!
With the best prospect pool we've had in over a decade things are looking better for the future. Already planning a trip to watch the young stars tourney.
One more solid offseason with another solid draft and I think we could start to be on the rise again.
Im excited to see Willy bring in a more uptempo game and start to see the young guys come up from Utica.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Yeah, yeah. It's the best prospect pool we've had since the last one.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Yeah, yeah. It's the best prospect pool we've had since the last one.

Well the last good prospect pool got us to game seven of the SCF.
So hopefully you're right!

It's refreshing to compare this pool to the last number of years and look at who ended up in the top 10 in the prospect polls.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Montreal didn't have a 2nd because of the Vanek trade. So I suspect they were trying to parley a prospect or defer to 2015. It's also possible they wanted us to take Gorges back given they were heavily shopping him a week later.

I would have taken a 2015 2nd round pick, that seems palatable. However it seems the entire intention of getting a 2014 2nd was to acquire Vey.

If the 2015 draft is as good as they say, a 2nd round pick will be quite valuable.

 

[kanucks25]

Unrelated to the above, but this is interesting for those who haven't seen it.

It's about the opposite of interesting.

I'd also like to hear how Yzerman is a great GM.

He busted out the "do you even watch hockey?" and "if you don't know I'm not going to tell you" quickly. Usually this means the person can't support his argument because he has no real reasons so he's just going to end the discussion and pretend he won.