THE All Encompassing Jim Benning Thread Part III (Mod Post #175, 464, 625)

[TheWanderer]

Wouldn't you say the positive Polly's and the kool aid drinkers are also speculating the other way?

I would.

I'm with Canucks in regards to the notion that at least there is some change here. If we needed a gm who would have kept guys like Kesler and Garrison around and taken nothing but a bunch of safe but meaningless moved, GMMG would still be here.

 

[ddawg1950]

Wouldn't you say the positive Polly's and the kool aid drinkers are also speculating the other way?

I would.

I don't think it breaks down in such simple terms.

Many fans look at the changes and will wait to see what shows up on the ice.

 

[Trelane]

I guess the perception of it being younger is where we disagree. Instead of seeing how Lack progresses, I have to watch Ryan ****ing Miller. Our major scoring addition was 33-year old Vrbata. Okay, yes, we have Linden Vey. Maybe Horvat makes the team, that would be cool. But otherwise? the roster construction makes me want to vomit.

Miller and Vrbata didn't cost anything except cap space. If it weren't filled by them it would have been taken up by someone comparable (e.g., Iginla). Signing FAs doesn't matter except in direct comparison with other FAs (who's the best bang for the buck of those available) or if they are taking positions from youngsters that are ready. We will have that debate in pre-season. Willie is on record that a "tie will go to the rookie." We shall see. Last year it was plain as day that neither Shinkaruk or Horvat were ready.

The Benning moves, presumably following ownership mandate of competing for playoffs every year, were made with an eye for present (23-27 age bracket) and future (extra picks). A process which really already started with Gillis, though he was forced into it.

Notables: IN -- OUT
Horvat (18) -- Schneider (27)
Bonion (26) -- Kesler (30)
Sbisa (24) -- Garrison (29)
Vey (23) -- Santorelli (28)
McCann (18)

By any measure the team is getting or trying to get younger. If it doesn't happen it will be because our drafting blows, not because of want of effort.

Don't much care for age of goalies. Totally different animal. Performance and age is too erratic to worry about. Just try and have a better than average combo, take it year-by-year, and if you're spending too much be sure it's because you have nothing else to spend it on.

 

[VanillaCoke]

I'm with Canucks in regards to the notion that at least there is some change here. If we needed a gm who would have kept guys like Kesler and Garrison around and taken nothing but a bunch of safe but meaningless moved, GMMG would still be here.

I'm happy about the changes, less happy how they were executed

 

[Shareefruck]

I'm sick of this notion that "this smelly old GM that we used to have would have stood still and done nothing" but "this new one is all about making changes!"

It's a joke, really. Gillis came in and made changes on the same scale as we're seeing now, and we were saying the same about Nonis. Nonis came in and did the same thing, and Burke before him and so on.

I don't see any reason to think Benning is any more ballsy than Gillis is at this point, and once he has the group he wants, he'll probably be very safe, reserved, and hesitant to mess with what he has like everyone else.

 

[arsmaster*]

I don't think it breaks down in such simple terms.

Many fans look at the changes and will wait to see what shows up on the ice.

I disagree. Wholeheartedly. Many fans think change for the sake of it is positive, see thewanderer's post above.

I also think the expectation of waiting and seeing is silly.

I've already admitted I'm willing and hopeful to eat crow about all the moves I have questioned.

Waiting and seeing is fine. But I think questioning the moves so far is perfectly warranted. That's the purpose of a discussion forum.

Lapping up everything as positive or taking everything as a positive while you wait and see is yours and whoevers prerogative. I don't think it discounts the opinions of those who disagree with the moves.

I'll reminisce to the signing of Marco sturm. Everyone hated it right off the hop. It ended up being a dreadful signing. Of course we all hoped it would turn out positively, but most or us called that spade a spade.

 

[The Stig]

I disagree. Wholeheartedly. Many fans think change for the sake of it is positive, see thewanderer's post above.

I also think the expectation of waiting and seeing is silly.

I've already admitted I'm willing and hopeful to eat crow about all the moves I have questioned.

Waiting and seeing is fine. But I think questioning the moves so far is perfectly warranted. That's the purpose of a discussion forum.

Lapping up everything as positive or taking everything as a positive while you wait and see is yours and whoevers prerogative. I don't think it discounts the opinions of those who disagree with the moves.

I'll reminisce to the signing of Marco sturm. Everyone hated it right off the hop. It ended up being a dreadful signing. Of course we all hoped it would turn out positively, but most or us called that spade a spade.

Why is waiting and seeing what the team does, silly? We have no idea what the team will do. It's all just speculation until we see the on ice product. So waiting and seeing before passing judgement is a smart move in my opinion.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Why is waiting and seeing what the team does, silly? We have no idea what the team will do. It's all just speculation until we see the on ice product. So waiting and seeing before passing judgement is a smart move in my opinion.

Waiting and seeing BEFORE making a decision on each move is what I think he means.
When it's perfectly justifiable to form an opinion on them as they happen.

If it turns out better than the initial judgement then great, if not then not.

 

[Canuckz]

I don't think it breaks down in such simple terms.

Many fans look at the changes and will wait to see what shows up on the ice.

This, most of the Nostradamusitis on here the past month has been pretty comical.
I'd rather be overly optimistic than overly pessimistic.

My biggest face palm is the armchair commandos who think they know more than a guy who lives and breathes hockey. Who has actively been doing that for all his life....instead of an outside observer speculating what takes place on the inside.

 

[Trelane]

I'm sick of this notion that "this smelly old GM that we used to have would have stood still and done nothing" but "this new one is all about making changes!"

It's a joke, really. Gillis came in and made changes on the same scale as we're seeing now, and we were saying the same about Nonis. Nonis came in and did the same thing, and Burke before him and so on.

I don't see any reason to think Benning is any more ballsy than Gillis is at this point, and once he has the group he wants, he'll probably be very safe, reserved, and hesitant to mess with what he has like everyone else.

It's always like that. The newcomer is free to make tons of changes because none of the outgoing pieces are "his guys" and there are no previous transactions to give testimony to his lack of "asset management." The test will come three years later when Benning has to make changes to cope with unforeseen circumstances. It will be easy to tally up the number and type of moves over the years for comparison.

I was a Gillis guy. Best record in Nuck history by a mile. Think he got a raw deal, particularly considering the scale of probable ownership involvement. He was ready to make wholesale changes this summer based on his original up tempo philosophy. Alas, he's gone. Time to move on. Pray as I do that the new guy only sounds like Forrest Gup but is actually a good judge of talent, much like Sutter only sounds like psychosis suffering Rambo but is actually a decent coach.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Why is waiting and seeing what the team does, silly? We have no idea what the team will do. It's all just speculation until we see the on ice product. So waiting and seeing before passing judgement is a smart move in my opinion.

I agree. Happens all the time with draft picks. Many ducks fans cried fowl when they picked hampus lindholm who is shaping up to be a fantastic player.

Having an opinion doesn't mean you can't reserve judgement at the same time. I think we should have taken ehlers, but I can't say for sure if virtanen will be a better player in the future or not. Opinions are subjective, facts are facts. Fact is, the upcoming season isn't even close to starting.

Still hate the garrison trade though.

 

[ddawg1950]

I disagree. Wholeheartedly. Many fans think change for the sake of it is positive, see thewanderer's post above.

I also think the expectation of waiting and seeing is silly.

I've already admitted I'm willing and hopeful to eat crow about all the moves I have questioned.

Waiting and seeing is fine. But I think questioning the moves so far is perfectly warranted. That's the purpose of a discussion forum.

Lapping up everything as positive or taking everything as a positive while you wait and see is yours and whoevers prerogative. I don't think it discounts the opinions of those who disagree with the moves.

I'll reminisce to the signing of Marco sturm. Everyone hated it right off the hop. It ended up being a dreadful signing. Of course we all hoped it would turn out positively, but most or us called that spade a spade.

You can call my position silly if you wish, but it doesn't really advance the debate, does it?

I am fine with you attacking Benning and these changes.

The reason I am waiting and not commenting too much on these recent changes, is that I still don't truly understand last year's epic disaster.

I have never seen an entire team, so recently successful (at least in the regular season) go off the cliff like that.

Was it just coaching...injuries? Age? Bad luck? Some combination?

I don't discount the negativos. There are too many posters that I have absolute respect for that don't like many of these moves. And yet, neither do I buy into the Everything is Sunny in Vancouver crowd.

I will wait and see because there are just too many unknowns for me to take a strong position either way.

Have there been some bad moves? Certainly. Has there been some good ones? Again, most certainly. But how this will affect what we are going to see in the 2014/15 season is beyond my Kreskin-like powers of prediction.

If you want to take a more black and white approach, that's fine with me.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

Miller and Vrbata didn't cost anything except cap space. If it weren't filled by them it would have been taken up by someone comparable (e.g., Iginla). Signing FAs doesn't matter except in direct comparison with other FAs (who's the best bang for the buck of those available) or if they are taking positions from youngsters that are ready. We will have that debate in pre-season. Willie is on record that a "tie will go to the rookie." We shall see. Last year it was plain as day that neither Shinkaruk or Horvat were ready.

The Benning moves, presumably following ownership mandate of competing for playoffs every year, were made with an eye for present (23-27 age bracket) and future (extra picks). A process which really already started with Gillis, though he was forced into it.

Notables: IN -- OUT
Horvat (18) -- Schneider (27)
Bonion (26) -- Kesler (30)
Sbisa (24) -- Garrison (29)
Vey (23) -- Santorelli (28)
McCann (18)

By any measure the team is getting or trying to get younger. If it doesn't happen it will be because our drafting blows, not because of want of effort.

Don't much care for age of goalies. Totally different animal. Performance and age is too erratic to worry about. Just try and have a better than average combo, take it year-by-year, and if you're spending too much be sure it's because you have nothing else to spend it on.

None of the players in the left column figure to have prominent roles on this Canucks team.

 

[RandV]

I'm with Canucks in regards to the notion that at least there is some change here. If we needed a gm who would have kept guys like Kesler and Garrison around and taken nothing but a bunch of safe but meaningless moved, GMMG would still be here.

That notion that Gillis can't make moves is nonsense, the only reason he gained that rep was Luongo and there was a whole lot of extraordinaire circumstances around Luongo. Who people seem to conveniently forget he as able to move in the end. And if you read between the lines he had Kesler traded last deadline, until the owners nixed it. There's no reason to think he couldn't have moved Kesler before the draft had he been kept on.

The one thing you can comment on is whether you think it's right or wrong Gillis explicitly stated that he wouldn't ask a player to waive his NTC, so no he wouldn't have traded Garrison. I know a lot of people are critical that he didn't trade Edler before his NTC kicked in, but if you consider the interpersonal relationship between a GM and a player doing so is outright stabbing a guy in the back. Of course it's simple enough to do as an armchair GM, but when you're working with actual real people it's another thing altogether.

Back to Benning, it's easy for any new GM to step in and start throwing chairs around. You're taking over another man's work, so you get a lot of extra leeway in tearing things down. Like when Gillis first stepped into the job and made the decision to let Naslund and Morrison walk, who it appeared Nonis was going to resign. Many posters here like to complain about how many NTC's Vancouver has, but Benning's coming from an organization with just as many and handed them out just as easily this summer. At some point he's going to settle in and make the team 'his guys', the same way Gillis did. Generally that's how most GM's work.

 

[RandV]

You can call my position silly if you wish, but it doesn't really advance the debate, does it?

I am fine with you attacking Benning and these changes.

The reason I am waiting and not commenting too much on these recent changes, is that I still don't truly understand last year's epic disaster.

I have never seen an entire team, so recently successful (at least in the regular season) go off the cliff like that.

Was it just coaching...injuries? Age? Bad luck? Some combination?

I don't discount the negativos. There are too many posters that I have absolute respect for that don't like many of these moves. And yet, neither do I buy into the Everything is Sunny in Vancouver crowd.

Yeah last season was odd. It was basically 2 decent months, then 1 great month, then 2 horrible months, then 1 final mediocre month where the team had to sputter along knowing they royally screwed up and weren't going to make the playoffs.

 

[Lindgren]

I agree. Happens all the time with draft picks. Many ducks fans cried fowl when they picked hampus lindholm who is shaping up to be a fantastic player.

Having an opinion doesn't mean you can't reserve judgement at the same time. I think we should have taken ehlers, but I can't say for sure if virtanen will be a better player in the future or not. Opinions are subjective, facts are facts. Fact is, the upcoming season isn't even close to starting.

Still hate the garrison trade though.

Very good. Did you think you could slip that one past us?

 

[putridgasbag]

Sometimes they don't.

Well then hit the bottle hard.

 

[The Stig]

Since people cannot help but discuss other posters instead of the team, I'm closing this thread.