The All Encompassing Dion Phaneuf Discussion Thread

[HockeyGuy82]

So you can't name 3?

I'm one of them.

Let's all agree that Phaneuf is making too much. 6 mil. would be a good number. Even 5.5 to make you guys happy.Is that extra million on the cap hit really hurting us that much?

-Are we one player away to be a contender?
-Is his salary holding us back to get that missing piece at the deadline to make it to the cup?
-Do we have a bunch of good players to sign next year?
-Will we have cap problems next year?
-And who is there to replace him, except Reilly or Gardiner, maybe, one day. Still to be determined.

I don't think it's a bad contract. It's a little high at the moment, yes. But i like Phaneuf. The cap will rise, more players will get big contracts, and Phaneuf's contract will get more and more easier to look at for you guys.

We need a partner just as good as him so they can handle the workload together. Gunnarsson was a good #3 or #4 defenseman. We need to get a #1 or #2 for Phaneuf. Not another Gunnarsson. Polak or Robidas are not better then Gunnarsson either. Very good depth.

I think the only solution is to hope Gardiner or Reilly become that player. UFA are too expensive, look at what Edmonton and Whashington payed. Crazy!

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

I'm one of them.

Let's all agree that Phaneuf is making too much. 6 mil. would be a good number. Even 5.5 to make you guys happy.Is that extra million on the cap hit really hurting us that much?

People keep bringing this up along with the cap rising in the next few years, but you can't keep using this reasoning for every contract or you wind up in cap hell like the Flyers.

Is the .5-1M on Komarov going to hurt? The extra 1-however much you want on Clarkson? The extra year on Robidas' contract? Individually, probably not. Collectively, they sure can.

I also probably would have preferred getting a couple of years off Phaneuf's contract over cutting down the AAV if I had to choose between the two. I don't think he's going to hold up well in 4-5 years. We'll see.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm sure that in the confines of an NHL locker room the only reason it matters at all is to decide who is buying dinner.

And if it did matter wouldn't Kessel then be the problem? Or Clarkson? What about Lupul when he's struggling?

The NHL CBA is designed to essentially give the majority of the money to players between the ages of 25-35 or so during UFA years. Of course players like Phaneuf and Subban are going to have big deals compared to others signed under the past CBA, put Doughty and Keith on the market and see what they command, it's above $10 mil per.

So simple. So logical. Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

Was it so hard to read my original post that you quoted? I didn't think so, but oh well. That is one of the questions, but I also asked how one should value contracts of current top 10 dmen who were signed off of their ELC or a short bridge. Is Hedman worth double his actual contract of 4 (8 per, then), or more or less? Is McDonagh worth 9.4? Or should we just never compare contracts unless they were signed in nearly identical circumstances?

I ask about Letang because he was signed as a pending UFA just like Dion and to a very similar contract. So either he's not a top 10 D - or wasn't considered one at the time - or his contract is a fair marker for what top 10 UFA dmen are worth.

For what it's worth, Letang finished 7th (behind retired Lidstrom) in a 2012 top defenseman poll. He had a very good 12-13 season before being re-signed in the summer of 2013. Phaneuf finished 25th in that same poll. You can move Doughty, Keith and Hedman ahead of him and he's still top 10.

It wasn't hard to read your post, it might have been harder to find though. Was it so hard to repeat your question?

As far as Hedman and McDonagh, not good comparables, see Jack Bauer's answer (which I will quote below and agree with).

Letang IMHO is another bad comparable because of his injury history. If he had no issues, then I think it's safe to say he would have gotten a bigger contract.

Here a question for you. Read the bolded text below. Do you agree or disagree that if Doughty was in the same spot as Phaneuf and signed a new deal this season than he would have gotten much more then the 7 million that he gets paid now, probably more like 10 million? And if you agree with that then the follow up question is do you understand that comparing the contracts of Doughty and Phaneuf makes no sense?

Ask yourself this - if Drew Doughty was 2 years away from UFA status (like Subban was) and signed a new deal today, what would the cap hit be? Would it be 7 million? Or is 10 million a more likely number?

Then take whoever you consider to be the top 10 d-men and go through the same exercise. Other than age considerations, there isn't one top 10 d-man that could be signed for 7 million dollars. Subban got 9. Doughty, Keith, Weber etc. you're dreaming if you think these guys would cost less than Subban.

Phaneuf got paid like someone who's maybe top 20-25 d-man.

Honestly, yes.

Subban a year from UFA instead of 2 likely gets an extra mil.

Subban signed 2 years ago likely gets a Keith kind of deal around a $6 mil cap hit.

Comparing contracts to find out who is a better player is pointless without knowing the context of the contracts you're comparing or the cap situation of the team signing the deal.

Again perfect. So simple and logical.

I'm one of them.

Let's all agree that Phaneuf is making too much. 6 mil. would be a good number. Even 5.5 to make you guys happy.Is that extra million on the cap hit really hurting us that much?

-Are we one player away to be a contender?
-Is his salary holding us back to get that missing piece at the deadline to make it to the cup?
-Do we have a bunch of good players to sign next year?
-Will we have cap problems next year?
-And who is there to replace him, except Reilly or Gardiner, maybe, one day. Still to be determined.

I don't think it's a bad contract. It's a little high at the moment, yes. But i like Phaneuf. The cap will rise, more players will get big contracts, and Phaneuf's contract will get more and more easier to look at for you guys.

We need a partner just as good as him so they can handle the workload together. Gunnarsson was a good #3 or #4 defenseman. We need to get a #1 or #2 for Phaneuf. Not another Gunnarsson. Polak or Robidas are not better then Gunnarsson either. Very good depth.

I think the only solution is to hope Gardiner or Reilly become that player. UFA are too expensive, look at what Edmonton and Whashington payed. Crazy!

Exactly. If you sort by salary, Dion is top 10 today but his place in those standings will go down every year. 5 years now he might not even be top 40.

 

[Bullseye]

Reposted from other closed Phaneuf thread:

I've been saying this for awhile but not many peeps take me seriously b/c of all the anti-Phaneuf railing:

Who was the MVP of the Leafs last year? My initial answer is always Jay McClement b/c of the myriad of situations he was thrown into to stop the bleeding... but I will argue that Dion Phaneuf was the MVP last season. Why?

Phaneuf had a great season statistically but also defensively. How does that make him the MVP? Phaneuf carried the Leafs - Yes - carried the Leafs. He got tired inevitably and the Leafs crash coincided with Phaneuf's fatigue.

So who was the most impactful player to the Leafs last year - Dion Phaneuf. So goes Dion Phaneuf, so go the Leafs.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

As far as Hedman and McDonagh, not good comparables, see Jack Bauer's answer (which I will quote below and agree with).

If there are no good comparables then why did you say he's not a top 10 cap D in the first place, since that statement requires comparing every defenseman?

Letang IMHO is another bad comparable because of his injury history. If he had no issues, then I think it's safe to say he would have gotten a bigger contract.

What, the concussions? The injuries he suffered this season came after he signed his contract. So if Letang and Bouwmeester are out, what good comparables are left?

Then take whoever you consider to be the top 10 d-men and go through the same exercise. Other than age considerations, there isn't one top 10 d-man that could be signed for 7 million dollars. Subban got 9. Doughty, Keith, Weber etc. you're dreaming if you think these guys would cost less than Subban.

Phaneuf got paid like someone who's maybe top 20-25 d-man.[/B]

Again perfect. So simple and logical.

Exactly. If you sort by salary, Dion is top 10 today but his place in those standings will go down every year. 5 years now he might not even be top 40.

Okay, so go through this exercise.

Subban, Weber, Suter are already paid more. Campbell and Letang very slightly more, Doughty exactly the same. Pietrangelo and Karlsson are a little behind. They should be getting more but aren't. Keith got term instead of cash. Hedman and McDonagh are way underpaid and should probably fire their agents.

I count 5 who are getting more, 3 who are getting pretty close but should be getting more, and 3 more who are getting way less and should be getting more. That puts Phaneuf 12th in this fairly nonsensical hypothetical scenario. How many more defensemen can you put ahead of him to get to 20-25? OEL to the currently underpaid pile gets him 13th. Vlasic? Kronwall? Still only 15. I can add a bunch of offensive defensemen like Yandle and Shattenkirk who are also making significantly less, would that make Dion's contract look better?

 

[Morbo]

J-Bo was not a UFA when he went to St. Louis.

...yes...and?

 

[Mess]

Reposted from other closed Phaneuf thread:

I've been saying this for awhile but not many peeps take me seriously b/c of all the anti-Phaneuf railing:

Who was the MVP of the Leafs last year? My initial answer is always Jay McClement b/c of the myriad of situations he was thrown into to stop the bleeding... but I will argue that Dion Phaneuf was the MVP last season. Why?

Phaneuf had a great season statistically but also defensively. How does that make him the MVP? Phaneuf carried the Leafs - Yes - carried the Leafs. He got tired inevitably and the Leafs crash coincided with Phaneuf's fatigue.

So who was the most impactful player to the Leafs last year - Dion Phaneuf. So goes Dion Phaneuf, so go the Leafs.

Definitely impactful.

Leafs gave up 252 goals against last year and Dion was on the ice for 101 of them = 39.4%. (tied for #7 most in the NHL).

No Maple Leaf player was on the ice for more while watching pucks being dug out of their own net than Phaneuf.

Franson #2 (89), JVR #3 (87) and Kessel #4 (82).

 

[HockeyGuy82]

People keep bringing this up along with the cap rising in the next few years, but you can't keep using this reasoning for every contract or you wind up in cap hell like the Flyers.

Is the .5-1M on Komarov going to hurt? The extra 1-however much you want on Clarkson? The extra year on Robidas' contract? Individually, probably not. Collectively, they sure can.

I also probably would have preferred getting a couple of years off Phaneuf's contract over cutting down the AAV if I had to choose between the two. I don't think he's going to hold up well in 4-5 years. We'll see.

Komarov and Clarckson are not good contracts. I am happy to see Komarov back, but not at that price.

I'm not saying it's ok to do it when you want any player. For Phaneuf, i'm happy we kept him. There's nobody to replace him.

 

[Gallagbi]

Definitely impactful.

Leafs gave up 252 goals against last year and Dion was on the ice for 101 of them = 39.4%. (tied for #7 most in the NHL).

No Maple Leaf player was on the ice for more while watching pucks being dug out of their own net than Phaneuf.

Franson #2 (89), JVR #3 (87) and Kessel #4 (82).

Not really surprising. Suter, Weber, Chara, Doughty and Karlsson were all on for a higher % of their team and most of them also lead their team in GA.

 

[Leafidelity]

Definitely impactful.

Leafs gave up 252 goals against last year and Dion was on the ice for 101 of them = 39.4%. (tied for #7 most in the NHL).

No Maple Leaf player was on the ice for more while watching pucks being dug out of their own net than Phaneuf.

Franson #2 (89), JVR #3 (87) and Kessel #4 (82).

Goals against? Those stats are the equivalent of banging rocks to make a fire when there's a zippo in your pocket.

 

[Gary Nylund]

If there are no good comparables then why did you say he's not a top 10 cap D in the first place, since that statement requires comparing every defenseman?

What, the concussions? The injuries he suffered this season came after he signed his contract. So if Letang and Bouwmeester are out, what good comparables are left?

Can you please show me where I said there are no good comparables because I don't believe I said that.

I'll try to find you a link later re. Letang.

There is only one good comparable at the moment IMO and that is Subban.

Okay, so go through this exercise.

Subban, Weber, Suter are already paid more. Campbell and Letang very slightly more, Doughty exactly the same. Pietrangelo and Karlsson are a little behind. They should be getting more but aren't. Keith got term instead of cash. Hedman and McDonagh are way underpaid and should probably fire their agents.

I count 5 who are getting more, 3 who are getting pretty close but should be getting more, and 3 more who are getting way less and should be getting more. That puts Phaneuf 12th in this fairly nonsensical hypothetical scenario. How many more defensemen can you put ahead of him to get to 20-25? OEL to the currently underpaid pile gets him 13th. Vlasic? Kronwall? Still only 15. I can add a bunch of offensive defensemen like Yandle and Shattenkirk who are also making significantly less, would that make Dion's contract look better?

Perhaps you misunderstood what I posted. The exercise was not to look at what they are paid today, but to think about what they would be paid if they were pending UFA's and signed new deals today. But never mind, what I was really interested in was this which you seem to have skipped over, here it is again:

Ask yourself this - if Drew Doughty was 2 years away from UFA status (like Subban was) and signed a new deal today, what would the cap hit be? Would it be 7 million? Or is 10 million a more likely number?

That was what I posted yesterday and if I recall correctly, it was directed at someone else. My question to you was this:

Do you agree or disagree that if Doughty was in the same spot as Phaneuf and signed a new deal this season than he would have gotten much more then the 7 million that he gets paid now, probably more like 10 million? And if you agree with that then the follow up question is do you understand that comparing the contracts of Doughty and Phaneuf makes no sense?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Goals against? Those stats are the equivalent of banging rocks to make a fire when there's a zippo in your pocket.

Nice! I would also mention that the Zippo is relatively crude but within a few years we should have flame-throwers to work with.

 

[yubbers]

Reposted from other closed Phaneuf thread:

I've been saying this for awhile but not many peeps take me seriously b/c of all the anti-Phaneuf railing:

Who was the MVP of the Leafs last year? My initial answer is always Jay McClement b/c of the myriad of situations he was thrown into to stop the bleeding... but I will argue that Dion Phaneuf was the MVP last season. Why?

Phaneuf had a great season statistically but also defensively. How does that make him the MVP? Phaneuf carried the Leafs - Yes - carried the Leafs. He got tired inevitably and the Leafs crash coincided with Phaneuf's fatigue.

So who was the most impactful player to the Leafs last year - Dion Phaneuf. So goes Dion Phaneuf, so go the Leafs.

 

[diceman934]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=88661551&postcount=936

I re-posted them a page ago. You quoted that post!

It is his game.....he claims you do not answer question while ignoring yours. I am not playing his game any longer. I know the question you posed anyone who reads the posts do.

 

[Bullseye]

Phaneuf was used in short handed TOI a ton - his goals per shifts was 27th in the league - Suter was number 1.

But as Boston demonstrates year I year out - plus/minus & goals against is a team not individual stat.

Swap Johnny Boychuk for Dion Phaneuf and watch the stats change for both players.

How well did Andrew Ference do in Edmonton after leaving the Bruins? Looked different didn't he?

 

[Mess]

Goals against? Those stats are the equivalent of banging rocks to make a fire when there's a zippo in your pocket.

Relevancy: Hockey 101 .. When the opposition puts more pucks in your net then you do in theirs they win and you lose.

Phaneuf 23:33 time of ice / game = 33rd among NHL Dmen, and he is #7 in most goals against while on the ice.

Seems to be disproportionate to ice-time in comparison to goals against to others playing the same position and many getting more time on the ice.

You don't see how this might be tied to Leafs win-loss record or can you explain how this isn't relevant?.

Leafs aren't a very good team because they give up too many goals against (5th worst overall) and unfortunately Leafs best players are on the ice when the highest % of goals are going into Leafs net, non more than Dion.

 

[ACC1224]

1000 posts already. Looking forward to the next installment of this comedy series.

 

[glue]

In answer to your question, I am neither blind or a jackass. If you have other questions the tell me what they are and I will try to answer. Instead of typing over and over again WHY DONT YOU ANSWER BLAH BLAH BLAH why not just restate your question, seems like it would be much less time consuming.



I respect those opinions (even if I don't agree with them). Everyone's entitled to their opinion and if people make a reasonable argument I am happy to listen to it. It seems like most arguments are fueled by some sort of irrational hatred and are completely devoid of context and thus hard to take seriously.



He is loved, you really think that's why they're not complaining about his contract? Interesting theory, I would say that there's some merit in what you say but I also think he's such a good player that I'm not sure they'd be complaining anyway. And there is such a huge (and relatively intelligent) fan base, no way everyone is blinded by their love. If the contract was a bad one I'm sure many would say so.

Totally agree if they collapse everyone gets criticism. MTL fans are much less tolerant than Leaf fans!

I only brought up Subban because he just signed a new contract and there are some good comparison points there.



Could well be. I'm trying to work and waste time here at the same time. I'm not claiming I never miss anything. If he re-states his question, I will try to answer (despite his rudeness). I think that's more than fair. It seems he would rather spend his time repeating over and over "why won't you answer ..." then simply asking again, that's his call.



Yes it seems you did finally give a clear answer. Not sure why that was so difficult for you. It only took what, 2 weeks or so?

Good day to you also.

Gary..my bone of contention with you earlier was for the same reason as how you've responded here...I suggested you were cherry picking earlier in one of my posts or perhaps a better way to say it is that you weren't reading to my post in its entirety and responding to only part of it...based on your response here regarding Subban being loved...you appear to have only commented on that part of my post without taking into consideration my post in its entirety...yes..I believe Subban being liked/loved has a role to play in how habs fans are likely to respond to him being signed for 9 Mil..but thats hardly the main point of my response...I went on to suggest the following "and very few people are going to complain about his contract because he hasn't given habs fans much reason to question his worth to the team...he's a Norris winner, selected to make team Canada, was a beast for the habs during the playoffs and is only 25 with still more potential..

Clearly as you can see i'm giving reasons why the habs fanbase is likely to be ecstatic with Subban's contract and not complain about the amount whereas with Dion neither his off ice demeanor/personality, nor his play on the ice thus far (part of 3 straight collapses where his play as a 'leader' has been less then flattering in those trying times) gives him much leighway to not be critisized for a 7 mil contract..heck he would probably be critsized even if he was signed for 6 mil...because his play as a leader has been put in question. If Subban does the same...watch that fanbase absolutely explode with negativity of the 9 mil salary.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It is his game.....he claims you do not answer question while ignoring yours. I am not playing his game any longer. I know the question you posed anyone who reads the posts do.

His question was asked and answered already, "wake up and smell the coffee" is the saying I believe.

As for your question, you asked me to "prove" something, I asked you what you would consider to be "proof" and you never responded but that's your game now isn't it.

Good thing you're not playing any more though as it seems to be a complete waste of time.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Gary..my bone of contention with you earlier was for the same reason as how you've responded here...I suggested you were cherry picking earlier in one of my posts or perhaps a better way to say it is that you weren't reading to my post in its entirety and responding to only part of it...based on your response here regarding Subban being loved...you appear to have only commented on that part of my post without taking into consideration my post in its entirety...yes..I believe Subban being liked/loved has a role to play in how habs fans are likely to respond to him being signed for 9 Mil..but thats hardly the main point of my response...I went on to suggest the following "and very few people are going to complain about his contract because he hasn't given habs fans much reason to question his worth to the team...he's a Norris winner, selected to make team Canada, was a beast for the habs during the playoffs and is only 25 with still more potential..

Clearly as you can see i'm giving reasons why the habs fanbase is likely to be ecstatic with Subban's contract and not complain about the amount whereas with Dion neither his off ice demeanor/personality, nor his play on the ice thus far (part of 3 straight collapses where his play as a 'leader' has been less then flattering in those trying times) gives him much leighway to not be critisized for a 7 mil contract..heck he would probably be critsized even if he was signed for 6 mil...because his play as a leader has been put in question. If Subban does the same...watch that fanbase absolutely explode with negativity of the 9 mil salary.

I'm not sure whay we're arguing about here. Subban is better than Phaneuf, no argument there. He is also getting paid about 28% more per year than Dion. And if plays poorly, the fanbase will not be happy, agreed again. Not sure what you think I'm not addressing, from what I can tell we're on the same page.

 

[JoeyBeans]

So you can't name 3?

I'm sure they will quote you and let you know.

 

[Bullseye]

Relevancy: Hockey 101 .. When the opposition puts more pucks in your net then you do in theirs they win and you lose.

Phaneuf 23:33 time of ice / game = 33rd among NHL Dmen, and he is #7 in most goals against while on the ice.

Seems to be disproportionate to ice-time in comparison to goals against to others playing the same position and many getting more time on the ice.

You don't see how this might be tied to Leafs win-loss record or can you explain how this isn't relevant?.

Leafs aren't a very good team because they give up too many goals against (5th worst overall) and unfortunately Leafs best players are on the ice when the highest % of goals are going into Leafs net, non more than Dion.

Not arguing with you but isn't this a team game? Dion was one of the very few players on this team with a plus rating by the time it was said and done. No-one will argue that he really tailed-off in the last dozen games and a good portion of those ugly stats you mention occurred in that span.

We need the whole team improve defensively -- either by system change and player change. I can't even remember when the Leafs had a strong defensive team - maybe Burns...

 

[Stephen]

Not arguing with you but isn't this a team game? Dion was one of the very few players on this team with a plus rating by the time it was said and done. No-one will argue that he really tailed-off in the last dozen games and a good portion of those ugly stats you mention occurred in that span.

We need the whole team improve defensively -- either by system change and player change. I can't even remember when the Leafs had a strong defensive team - maybe Burns...

We also need accountability, so the guy who is paid $7.5 million can't be one of the pieces that always breaks down.

 

[Bullseye]

They all broke down! All of them.

 

[glue]

I'm not sure whay we're arguing about here. Subban is better than Phaneuf, no argument there. He is also getting paid about 28% more per year than Dion. And if plays poorly, the fanbase will not be happy, agreed again. Not sure what you think I'm not addressing, from what I can tell we're on the same page.

You zero'd in on my suggestion that Subban is loved and thats why he is not critisized as much...i just pointed out that it is only part of what I said and not the whole thing...thats why I responded.

Perhaps you're right that we're basically on the same page (minus that I'm not a fan of Dion and definitely not at 7 mil, but we can agree to disagree there )..but your quote here is what I was commenting on initially:

"I didn't see one person making ridiculous contract comparisons such as Subban's/Doughty or Subban/Keith or whoever else. Not one person who didn't understand that Subban having the highest cap hit of any d-man in the NHL doesn't mean that MTL mngmnt considers him to be the best d-man in the NHL. Or to put it another way, MTL fans seem to understand the context in which it was decided that it was OK to pay him 9 million a year while many Leaf fans still don't understand that kind of context when it comes to Dion's contract."

I was giving you reasoning for the above. I believe that more then the lack of understanding of context CBA and contracts etc., the reason habs fans didn't make a big deal of Subban's contract is for the reasons I've stated already regarding Subban..he's basically been awesome for Montreal and still has tons of upside...whereas with Dion he's now 29 and signed to a 7 year deal and definitely not going to be the same player at 35/36 that he is now (which is very scary for some us)...furthermore, he's become a target for even 'irrational' criticisms because he's been less then awesome at critical times for the leafs..forget at 7 mil...some folks just don't want him on the team period..when they see him they're reminded of the bone head plays in important games/situations...which is bound to happen in such a passionate hockey market with the largest fan base and yet constant failures