The 2015-2016 Blues Discussion Thread - Part I ‎

BlueBeard

Registered User
Aug 17, 2008
2,958
0
Gap closure can be an individual problem, however, when the entire defensive corps is backing off at the blueline I'm inclined to believe it's a coaching issue.

Maybe something changed but Hitch(and Pang for Hitch) talks about being so strong in the areas surrounding the Blue lines on a frequent enough basis it just doesn't jive for him(or Shaw) to tell the d-men to not do that.

Something was different this year and the more I think about it I just wonder if it was just a whole lot of things adding up. Petro and Jbo didn't start the year out on a great note, Cole was pretty meh, Jackman was continuing to decline, Polak out Gunnarson in coming off an injury, so on and so forth. Outside of Shatty having a damn good first half and Petro having a great second half(where he was much better about holding the line) the defensive unit wasn't really at it's best at any point this year. I don't know how you would track it to see if it was true but to me it seemed like the forwards left the D out to dry by getting too cute with the puck more this year. Maybe they did tweak some things from a coaching standpoint as well but I think there was a lot more there than just a change in the X's and O's.
 

Dbrownss

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
31,359
8,734
Maybe something changed but Hitch(and Pang for Hitch) talks about being so strong in the areas surrounding the Blue lines on a frequent enough basis it just doesn't jive for him(or Shaw) to tell the d-men to not do that.

Something was different this year and the more I think about it I just wonder if it was just a whole lot of things adding up. Petro and Jbo didn't start the year out on a great note, Cole was pretty meh, Jackman was continuing to decline, Polak out Gunnarson in coming off an injury, so on and so forth. Outside of Shatty having a damn good first half and Petro having a great second half(where he was much better about holding the line) the defensive unit wasn't really at it's best at any point this year. I don't know how you would track it to see if it was true but to me it seemed like the forwards left the D out to dry by getting too cute with the puck more this year. Maybe they did tweak some things from a coaching standpoint as well but I think there was a lot more there than just a change in the X's and O's.
I agree...the defense would collapse down to the top of the circles and the idea is the forwards backcheck and strip the opposition of the puck or at least remove the passing plays, They rarely did. Now when they did...it was beautiful.

With that said, the defense should be aware of their support to an extent and if they don't see the forwards coming back then they need to hold the line. Also coaching should have made adjustments. Just a systems failure to me
 

Multimoodia

Sicker Than Usual
Nov 6, 2010
3,187
101
The Range
As a competitive hockey player, im telling you that gap closure doesnt fall into that category. Gap closure is a skill that has to be developed. Coaches cant do everything for players. They have to read plays on their own most of the time.

As a former very competitive hockey player I can tell you scheme matters just as much, if not more, than the developed skill.

Notice how the Blues defensemen almost always angled the rushing forward the same way every time? That's a scheme, and that's why players who hadn't been on the Blues for an extended period of time (Bortuzzo, Lindbohm, etc.) tended to look better when they joined the Blues. They hadn't been exposed to Hitch/Shaw's system enough so they did what very talented players do until fully enmeshed in the scheme...they went with their instinctual play which is to force gap closure at the blue line as almost every system ever created ever does.
Ever.

Hitch's system is built around a slower defensive pairing and high pursuit forwards creating an enormous amount of pressure and forcing a poor shot or pass from above the circles. It gives the appearance of having room, sort of like a goalie pretending to give a five-hole then taking it away.
The defense giving up the linear control typically afforded by the blueline and instead converting that control to essentially create a wedge toward the center of the ice keeps the opposition from driving down the sidewall, doing a cross-corner dump-in or doing anything fancy once the blueline has been gained. This final part is disrupted by the returning forwards and only by the returning forwards.

The issue is that with a fairly mobile defense, you really don't need to use that system and in fact it becomes harder to truly enforce. Using the blueline as a control point with a semi-active forward return is fine because it forces the opposition to dump the puck in allowing the other defenseman to turn and burn to grab the puck and force the attack the other way.

Hitch's plan works well when the other team doesn't have enough time to learn how to explicitly beat it or if the other team doesn't have a large enough amount of speed/skill to collapse the wedge. The Blues have issues with the latter against Chicago (and the former, but the latter especially) and this year's playoff against Minnesota proved that the former is true as well.

So, sorry but you're wrong. I was forced to play in a system very similar to the one Hitch is currently using and I can assure it might have very well been the most maddening thing to play I can remember. Even the coach who told us we were too talented for a system (came in at the half-way point due to some issues between the management and the outgoing coach) was less frustrating to deal with.
 

Renard

Registered User
Nov 14, 2011
2,150
761
St. Louis, MO
As a former very competitive hockey player I can tell you scheme matters just as much, if not more, than the developed skill.

Notice how the Blues defensemen almost always angled the rushing forward the same way every time? That's a scheme, and that's why players who hadn't been on the Blues for an extended period of time (Bortuzzo, Lindbohm, etc.) tended to look better when they joined the Blues. They hadn't been exposed to Hitch/Shaw's system enough so they did what very talented players do until fully enmeshed in the scheme...they went with their instinctual play which is to force gap closure at the blue line as almost every system ever created ever does.
Ever.

Hitch's system is built around a slower defensive pairing and high pursuit forwards creating an enormous amount of pressure and forcing a poor shot or pass from above the circles. It gives the appearance of having room, sort of like a goalie pretending to give a five-hole then taking it away.
The defense giving up the linear control typically afforded by the blueline and instead converting that control to essentially create a wedge toward the center of the ice keeps the opposition from driving down the sidewall, doing a cross-corner dump-in or doing anything fancy once the blueline has been gained. This final part is disrupted by the returning forwards and only by the returning forwards.

The issue is that with a fairly mobile defense, you really don't need to use that system and in fact it becomes harder to truly enforce. Using the blueline as a control point with a semi-active forward return is fine because it forces the opposition to dump the puck in allowing the other defenseman to turn and burn to grab the puck and force the attack the other way.

Hitch's plan works well when the other team doesn't have enough time to learn how to explicitly beat it or if the other team doesn't have a large enough amount of speed/skill to collapse the wedge. The Blues have issues with the latter against Chicago (and the former, but the latter especially) and this year's playoff against Minnesota proved that the former is true as well.

So, sorry but you're wrong. I was forced to play in a system very similar to the one Hitch is currently using and I can assure it might have very well been the most maddening thing to play I can remember. Even the coach who told us we were too talented for a system (came in at the half-way point due to some issues between the management and the outgoing coach) was less frustrating to deal with.

I don't have your experience as a player and can't dispute your comments. But the hockey world views Hitchcock as a first-rate hockey mind. He also has Muller and MacInnis to help him. If Hitch is running a system that doesn't fit his players, why is he sticking to it? To use a football analogy, why would a coach with gifted running backs and a bad quarterback try to insist on running a passing offense?
 

Alklha

Registered User
Sep 7, 2011
16,875
2,751
I don't have your experience as a player and can't dispute your comments. But the hockey world views Hitchcock as a first-rate hockey mind. He also has Muller and MacInnis to help him. If Hitch is running a system that doesn't fit his players, why is he sticking to it? To use a football analogy, why would a coach with gifted running backs and a bad quarterback try to insist on running a passing offense?

It isn't a system that doesn't fit the players, the regular season shows that it does. The problem is that during the season teams don't worry about other teams as much as you do when you are playing a series against them. When we get into the post-season, teams are making more adjustments to us. Hitchcock hasn't shown capable of making similar adjustments.

I think it is more about Hitchcock and the inflexibility of the roster. When you have a coach who can't make effective short-term adjustments and a roster than doesn't make that easy, you aren't going to win in the playoffs. That's not an excuse for the players, they should still have had enough to beat Minnesota before getting destroyed by Chicago. But, I do think the talent level of the team is the least of the problems.
 

Artorius Horus T

sincerety
Nov 12, 2014
19,396
12,032
Suomi/Finland
Any predictions how Jori Lehtera's 15-16 season will go?
its his 10th pro career season (Finland+KHL+NHL).

609 games, 143 goals, 331 assists,
+/- +128, with 400 penalty minutes.

After 44 point season,can he push for 55,60 point season?
or even more? in a assumption that he continues to play
with Tarasenko and Schwartz.
 

Blanick

Winter is coming
Sep 20, 2011
15,878
10,829
St. Louis
Any predictions how Jori Lehtera's 15-16 season will go?
its his 10th pro career season (Finland+KHL+NHL).

609 games, 143 goals, 331 assists,
+/- +128, with 400 penalty minutes.

After 44 point season,can he push for 55,60 point season?
or even more? in a assumption that he continues to play
with Tarasenko and Schwartz.

I could see him eclipsing the 50 point mark this year as he will be a little more accustomed to the NA schedule. Outside of just production I would like to see him involve Schwartz in the offense a little more if that line stays together. As well as cutting down on the offensive zone penalties. There were times where he was utterly infuriating last year with untimely Ozone penalties.
 

Artorius Horus T

sincerety
Nov 12, 2014
19,396
12,032
Suomi/Finland
I could see him eclipsing the 50 point mark this year as he will be a little more accustomed to the NA schedule. Outside of just production I would like to see him involve Schwartz in the offense a little more if that line stays together. As well as cutting down on the offensive zone penalties. There were times where he was utterly infuriating last year with untimely Ozone penalties.

I see that as well.

All the other stuff comes with time,
i think,...learning takes time, even for the experienced
Europeans

I think "stupid" penalties is
easiest thing to fix.
 

Majorityof1

Registered User
Mar 6, 2014
8,385
6,926
Central Florida
Any predictions how Jori Lehtera's 15-16 season will go?
its his 10th pro career season (Finland+KHL+NHL).

609 games, 143 goals, 331 assists,
+/- +128, with 400 penalty minutes.

After 44 point season,can he push for 55,60 point season?
or even more? in a assumption that he continues to play
with Tarasenko and Schwartz.

One of the things I have been thinking about and hoping for is limiting Lehtera's games played this coming regular season. He fell off the earth in the back half of the season. We don't need our guys exhausted heading into the playoffs. To do this, we'd need a serviceable 13th forward who we can plug into the top 9. That could be tough salary capwise unless we use our young guys.

So a lineup like (trades will mix things up):

Schwartz Stasny Tarasenko
Steen Backes Oshie
Jaskin XXX YYY
Porter Ott Reaves
Press box: ZZZ

Obviously, any trades would shake things up. But we would rotate Fabbri, Rattie and Lehtera in the XXX YYY and ZZZ spot to all get somewhat equal playing time. So 82 games x 2 spots / 3 players = approx. 55 games each. Hopefully this would allow Fabbri to break into bigs easier, and make it less likely for Lehtera to hit a wall. Then we take the best 12 into the playoffs. The down side is injuries would obviously mess things up and it could mess with line chemistry to have different lines every night.
 

2 Minute Minor

Hi Keeba!
Jun 3, 2008
15,615
124
Temple, Texas
I feel like I'm the only Blues fan who isn't eager to see Lehtera in the same role that he was in last year.

I think Tarasenko on Lehtera's line is way too limiting going forward. They aren't guys that should be in the same role, and the "chemistry" doesn't outweigh the problems created (especially the defensive liability).

Lehtera can be a 3rd line player. Tarasenko needs to be with Stastny. Maybe Fabbri is on Lehtera's wing.
 

bleedblue1223

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
51,936
14,916
I feel like I'm the only Blues fan who isn't eager to see Lehtera in the same role that he was in last year.

Yes and no. I want to see what Lehtera is like next season, more specifically, the 2nd half. He's either going to be a 3rd line type or he's going to be able to last a full season and would be a legitimate 2nd line center.

If we don't get an Eberle type, then we have to give Stastny and Tarasenko a legitimate shot together.
 

BlueDream

Registered User
Aug 30, 2011
25,815
14,257
It will be interesting to see what happens with the lines. I kind of believe the Blues need to load up their top 6 (meaning Stastny and Tarasenko together) and go with a more traditional energy/checking line as the 3rd line. It seems like our 3rd line never really has an identity - it's just the spare parts like Lindstrom, Berglund, etc. that get thrown together. If Lehtera is centering that unit and we have Fabbri or Rattie also on that line, I'm not really sure how that will work out. It could, but it usually seems like it's lacking chemistry.
 

bleedblue1223

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
51,936
14,916
Right, we need a 3rd line with an identity. Play like an energy line, but with skill. Jaskin can be the physical force and maybe Fabbri can be the pest type, more like Schwartz and less like a Marchand.

Now for the unknown, who's the center? Until moves are done, we really won't know.
 

EastonBlues22

Registered User
Nov 25, 2003
14,807
10,496
RIP Fugu ϶(°o°)ϵ
Assuming Hitchcock isn't going to drastically change his MO, I'd like to see Lehtera in the role Stastny had last year, with basically neutral usage as he spells the centers who are being significantly zone-matched (Stastny in the offensive zone, and Backes in the defensive zone).

Assuming Oshie is gone, the RW's for the Lehtera/Backes lines can alternate somewhat depending on where the draw is being taken, with the intention of giving Jaskin more defensive zone draws and Fabbri/Rattie (or new guy) more offensive zone draws.

Berglund/Schwartz can split time on the LW of those two lines, depending on matchups and how guys are playing. I'd like to see Steen spend a lot of time with Stastny and Tarasenko.
 

Ranksu

Crotch Academy ftw
Sponsor
Apr 28, 2014
19,709
9,330
Lapland
I feel like I'm the only Blues fan who isn't eager to see Lehtera in the same role that he was in last year.

I would give all icetime to Schwartz - Stastny - Tarasenko if that line up works. Maybe they just need 1 season to play together until they build up chemistry.
 

KirkOut

EveryoneOut
Nov 23, 2012
14,548
3,757
USA
I would give all icetime to Schwartz - Stastny - Tarasenko if that line up works. Maybe they just need 1 season to play together until they build up chemistry.

I agree. This was the reason they signed Stastny in the first place. I don't think it's fair to throw that line away because it didn't click in the handful of games they tried it last season.
 
Apr 30, 2012
21,052
5,434
St. Louis, MO
Assuming Hitchcock isn't going to drastically change his MO, I'd like to see Lehtera in the role Stastny had last year, with basically neutral usage as he spells the centers who are being significantly zone-matched (Stastny in the offensive zone, and Backes in the defensive zone).

Assuming Oshie is gone, the RW's for the Lehtera/Backes lines can alternate somewhat depending on where the draw is being taken, with the intention of giving Jaskin more defensive zone draws and Fabbri/Rattie (or new guy) more offensive zone draws.

Berglund/Schwartz can split time on the LW of those two lines, depending on matchups and how guys are playing. I'd like to see Steen spend a lot of time with Stastny and Tarasenko.

That's pretty much exactly how I see it too. I really don't like the idea of Lehtera being attached at the hip to Tarasenko. Frankly, that hurts us.
 

2 Minute Minor

Hi Keeba!
Jun 3, 2008
15,615
124
Temple, Texas
The quotes from Armstrong in the recent JR piece were interesting. "I talked to Hitchcock about it. [Stastny] needs to be in that role." Basically summarized how he got shuffled to the 3rd line due to his injury, then the SOB/STL lines clicking. But that going forward he needs to be a top center (and I think the point is, play with top wingers).

I'm really starting to think that Armstrong is going to deal Backes. Is Lehtera a good bet at the 2C?
 

ManyIdeas

Registered User
Feb 14, 2012
6,356
915
St. Louis
the issue is that you can't safely say lehtera is a legit option until basically the trade deadline and his potential slowdown due to a long season. say we trade backes and lehtera is tired at the end of the season and 6 pregolf hockey games, berglund or a trade would be the only options to fill in.

that being said hitch would not make any adjustments either way, so it doesnt matter.
 

EastonBlues22

Registered User
Nov 25, 2003
14,807
10,496
RIP Fugu ϶(°o°)ϵ
The quotes from Armstrong in the recent JR piece were interesting. "I talked to Hitchcock about it. [Stastny] needs to be in that role." Basically summarized how he got shuffled to the 3rd line due to his injury, then the SOB/STL lines clicking. But that going forward he needs to be a top center (and I think the point is, play with top wingers).

I'm really starting to think that Armstrong is going to deal Backes. Is Lehtera a good bet at the 2C?
I'm not in love with the idea of Lehtera as the #2 center, especially given that our hope for an improved impact when it matters largely rests on the relatively tenuous notion of "improved conditioning."

He has second line ability, and we could certainly do worse there, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable having him as our third best center going into next year. If he showed well all the way through next year (playoffs included), it would be a lot easier to pencil him into the top 6 moving forward.
 

BlueDream

Registered User
Aug 30, 2011
25,815
14,257
I'm glad to hear Stastny will be in an offensive role and be a primary piece next season. He's scored 70 points before multiple times, if we're going to be good then we need him leading the way at the center position.
 

Majorityof1

Registered User
Mar 6, 2014
8,385
6,926
Central Florida
I feel like I'm the only Blues fan who isn't eager to see Lehtera in the same role that he was in last year.

Written right after I said I wanted Lehtera as a 3rd line center playing only 55 games a year. I have also stated several times that Lehtera, while a good player, holds us back because he is a not good enough scorer to be second line or near good enough defensively to be shut-down and is holding Tarasenko back due to "chemistry". Guess that's evidence someone skips my posts :laugh:
 

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