team usa can only blame team usa
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Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
nomorekids said:
Well, that goes without saying. How about this group:
Suter
Hagemo
Borer
Byfuglien
Johnson
Thelen
Lashoff
Goligoski
What could have been!
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USA had the top players in the country on the team and had an unbelievable amount of offensive skill that sat on the bench. I would have like to have seen 4 lines rotating with enough time to set-up and execute a play.
nomorekids said:
Ahhh, duh!!
We were only saying that since before the tourney started and the selections came out! Byfuglien was named WHL player of the month yesterday and today said he was glad the USA team lost in the semi yesterday. The guy is leading the PG Cougars in goals and points and is like 6'3 250lbs! He has the hardest shot in the league and plays 30+ minutes a night. IMO, the USA brass made a huge mistake overlooking Zack Fitzgerald and Dustin Byfuglien this year!
I am not saying they would have brought back a gold medal, cuz Canada was just too strong, but they would have put up a better fight I can guarantee that! Brian Lee was a huge mistake, just huge, he never played and you can't say he gained any experience from the tourney, other that sitting on the bench. As some from the USA posted before the tourney that this USA team would very quick and fast and move the puck before any trouble started were so wrong. I could not imagine what the score would have been between USA and Canada!penkil2 said:
I think there is a significant difference of opinion that all the top players were there. Particularly on the defensive selections. Many argued the point before and during the tournament.
The play proved that out. A few dings and illnesses led to the already weak defense being severly outgunned. As the article in ESPN suggests the problem is even deeper than just player selection. It seems that the USA hockey coaching selection, Management and Player selection are all flawed.
Too much is done by comittee. No one person is really in charge or held accountable. If you go to the USA Hockey website and just peruse the organizational chart it's impossible to determine who decides what regarding international teams. It appears to be a unfocused monster of an organization, like the US government. Need to streamline it more like a focused business unit, heck like an NHL team organization.
They need one person (GM) in charge of selecting international teams, one coach dedicated to each team and input from others (Coach,Scouts,Comittees) only prior to the team selection. Let the coach select the assistants with the GM. The GM has to have complete authority and accountability for final player selection.
No politics, just a good hockey man making decisions at the top for selection. You saw what EJ's article is hinting toward in the movie the Miracle. Bunch of guys patting each other on the back, holding meetings, having lunches trying to pick a team. Herb Brooks went against them, appears nothing has changed or been learned from that.
As far as rolling 4 lines and running a play, I'm not sure there were any plays worked on enough to run... If you can't count on the guys behind you or rely on them to start the play... Mostly all I saw was chaos most times in their zone.
The first game I saw Brian Lee play I commented on here that his selection was unfair to the team and him. He definitely was not ready for prime time international tournament play. The poor kid was scared stiff anytime the puck or an opposing player got near him. Thats just because of nerves and lack of experience. I'm sure he had the talent or he wouldn't have even been considered.
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bleedgreen
Registered User
i dont like to hear that players who had "coaching conflicts" get left off. people have to put crap like that behind them in these situations...both ways. i can hear someone saying johnson was too young or something, but how did lee fit in then? thelen has struggled this season, but surely it would better him than lee? i guess the only arguement is you like to have young guys there just for the experience, to help lead next year...ala suter, but i have a problem with the lee part overall. the kid barely played. i think the early poor play by montoya put all the d into a no-error mode that is impossoble and actually creates more errors. the whole thing snowballed and no one stepped up to stop it, or could. how do you turn a tourny gone wrong around? kessel did his part to awaken the o, but no one on d could turn it around...or in net. i dont like people dumping on montoya, but its hard to say he played up to expectations. and schneider? holy cow. he looked like a deer in the headlights. i hope he gets somo good experience before next year. hes the man then, right? whos the other guy you guys mentiioned? another usdt guy is up for the draft this year, mckeens has him in the third round presently....is he an option? forgot his name.
i used to live in CO springs (home to usa hockey), and worked in hockey, getting to know some of the guys there. the main complaint was always that the old timers that arent changing with the times are hanging around, instead of new blood coming in. i know a number of people who left or were fired from usa in the last year. i think its a pretty unstable environment right now. the usdt is obviously a great idea, and its hard to argue with its success. i think the usa hockey problem starts from the top.
i used to live in CO springs (home to usa hockey), and worked in hockey, getting to know some of the guys there. the main complaint was always that the old timers that arent changing with the times are hanging around, instead of new blood coming in. i know a number of people who left or were fired from usa in the last year. i think its a pretty unstable environment right now. the usdt is obviously a great idea, and its hard to argue with its success. i think the usa hockey problem starts from the top.
BackToTheBrierePatch
Nope not today.
orangeandblack said:
Jack Johnson getting left off the team was a big oversite, the USA definitly could have used his grit on the blueline.
ClarkeMustGoDotCom said:
He would not have made a difference! Get off the Jack Johnson thing! He would have sat on the bench like Lee and watched as a spectator! Team USA made a mistake bringing a 17 yr old to the tourney and maybe they will learn from it. The 7th D-man is very important in a tourney like this, in case of an injury or if someone is not playing well or even PP work. That's all Cam Barker was really doing until his illness.
Hablover, once you got past Suter, Hagemo and Borer the defense was very poor. Hagemo was dinged and Borer had the flu making it worse. Likens played terrible, Hunwick was marginal and Gogiloski never seemed to meld with the USA system. Lee is a no brainer, he just wasn't ready for this, not enough experience and scared to death.
I'm not sure that they ever implimented what they intended on defense. They illuded to a defensive system based on speed and quick puck movement. Instead showed tenativeness and poor puck movement most of the games I saw. The younger guys seemed worried about making mistakes, taking penalties and thus played way too passive a game.
I honestly believe there had to be more defensive prospects available and legitimately considered. Not just Johnson. I also believe they needed more work together/coaching.
If you read the ESPN article it describes how the USA Hockey organization needs to improve the player selection process for international tournament teams. It also talks about a weakness in international coaching experience.
For the most part I thought the forwards were spending too much time bailing the defense out. I saw guys coming back, not to pick up an open man, but to cover guys a defenseman should have already had or help get the puck out of the zone.
The Russian defense looked like this in game one, they improved, USA regressed.
Montoya started playing on pins and needles early. Lost his confidence and at times nearly collapsed. Just a bad scenario all around when you can't rely on your defensemen.
I'm not sure that they ever implimented what they intended on defense. They illuded to a defensive system based on speed and quick puck movement. Instead showed tenativeness and poor puck movement most of the games I saw. The younger guys seemed worried about making mistakes, taking penalties and thus played way too passive a game.
I honestly believe there had to be more defensive prospects available and legitimately considered. Not just Johnson. I also believe they needed more work together/coaching.
If you read the ESPN article it describes how the USA Hockey organization needs to improve the player selection process for international tournament teams. It also talks about a weakness in international coaching experience.
For the most part I thought the forwards were spending too much time bailing the defense out. I saw guys coming back, not to pick up an open man, but to cover guys a defenseman should have already had or help get the puck out of the zone.
The Russian defense looked like this in game one, they improved, USA regressed.
Montoya started playing on pins and needles early. Lost his confidence and at times nearly collapsed. Just a bad scenario all around when you can't rely on your defensemen.
HabLover said:
Yeah maybe they should've left that 17 yr old Kessel home as well by your logic!!!
I dunno if he thought of this, but imo its alot easier for a young forward to play against older competition than it is a youg d-man.JR#9 said:Yeah maybe they should've left that 17 yr old Kessel home as well by your logic!!!
Sammy said:
Thank you....anyone with half a brain would know that! It's easier to hide a 17 yr old forward on the 4th line or as the 13th forward, not that Kessel was, but if they are unsure, as was the case with Lee. The problem was the rest of the D on Team USA were having difficulties and they were unable to replace any of them with the 7th D-man.
I think that article is very accurate. I watched team USA's first game, a thrilling 5-4 win over Russia, and saw what I expected from the Americans. High intensity, good speed and skill...all played at a very high pace. From that game on the Americans got worse. I know Montoya's poor play took the air out of some of his teammates, but a coach is supposed to keep the team's spirit and intensity up. The team should feel like a team(pull for one another). In a Patrick O'Sulllivan interview, he was asked why this team isn't attaining the success of last years team? I thought it was ominous that he said the chemistry is different on this team. It's appears a combination of bad selecting(especially the defence...and coach(s)) and erratic goaltending were the roots of the US's downfall. They couldn't have beat Canada but they could have got a silver if they played to their potential.
Rabid Ranger said:
Winston Wolf
Registered User
Pretty good post, em1ss - that's pretty much how I saw it too.
Especially your comment: "For the most part I thought the forwards were spending too much time bailing the defense out. I saw guys coming back, not to pick up an open man, but to cover guys a defenseman should have already had or help get the puck out of the zone."
I kept seeing that, too. And I thought the forwards did a damn good job of it. Case in point, during the first period of the Belarus game [around 13:30 in the first] Kotsitsyn was taking the puck out of Team USA's offensive zone on what looked to be a breakaway - and while most everyone else was standing around watching - O'Sullivan hauled ass and was able to poke check the puck away before Kotsitsyn was able to get the shot off - no USA D-men in sight. O'Sullivan not only broke up that play but took the puck away and was wheeling down into the offensive zone for what looked like a great scoring opportunity, only to be interrupted by a rather mysterious off-sides whistle. [jeeeesus......that boy can skate].
Anyway, point is, I also thought the forwards were too damn busy trying to keep the puck out of their own net to really be able to concentrate on their offense. It just seemed to get worse as the tournament went on, too. It's great that they were able to be defensively responsible, but you just can't expect them to be able to perform in both the forward and defense positions at the same time.
Especially your comment: "For the most part I thought the forwards were spending too much time bailing the defense out. I saw guys coming back, not to pick up an open man, but to cover guys a defenseman should have already had or help get the puck out of the zone."
I kept seeing that, too. And I thought the forwards did a damn good job of it. Case in point, during the first period of the Belarus game [around 13:30 in the first] Kotsitsyn was taking the puck out of Team USA's offensive zone on what looked to be a breakaway - and while most everyone else was standing around watching - O'Sullivan hauled ass and was able to poke check the puck away before Kotsitsyn was able to get the shot off - no USA D-men in sight. O'Sullivan not only broke up that play but took the puck away and was wheeling down into the offensive zone for what looked like a great scoring opportunity, only to be interrupted by a rather mysterious off-sides whistle. [jeeeesus......that boy can skate].
Anyway, point is, I also thought the forwards were too damn busy trying to keep the puck out of their own net to really be able to concentrate on their offense. It just seemed to get worse as the tournament went on, too. It's great that they were able to be defensively responsible, but you just can't expect them to be able to perform in both the forward and defense positions at the same time.
The Kingslayer
Registered User
BackToTheBrierePatch
Nope not today.
I dont know guys, no one complained about Montoya last season, did you?
Defence :some american guy on this board, did mention, he evaulated the U.S defence team, before the start of the tourny, he even noted, that this U.S team lacks size. All of em are higly skilled, and not very rought/tough defencemens.
Goaltending. How can you not go with Montoya after what he did last Juniors? He came in as the strongest goalie out of everyone. But for sure, he choked realy bad. And when he was good, the defence sucked. And when the Defence was good, he was allowing 3 goals on 6 shots.
Offence. They have the 2nd best 2nd line, in the tourny.
this team underachieved. No Kesler No, Stuart, No Parice hurt team usa.
Defence :some american guy on this board, did mention, he evaulated the U.S defence team, before the start of the tourny, he even noted, that this U.S team lacks size. All of em are higly skilled, and not very rought/tough defencemens.
Goaltending. How can you not go with Montoya after what he did last Juniors? He came in as the strongest goalie out of everyone. But for sure, he choked realy bad. And when he was good, the defence sucked. And when the Defence was good, he was allowing 3 goals on 6 shots.
Offence. They have the 2nd best 2nd line, in the tourny.
this team underachieved. No Kesler No, Stuart, No Parice hurt team usa.
Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
go kim johnsson said:
I agree, but let's not get carried away with the "home ice" thing. The only player Ralph Englestad arena was home for was Drew Stafford, that's it.
The point is it is still located in the US and therefore should have been home ice. You can't discount the advantage, just because the home team was horrible!Rabid Ranger said:
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