Confirmed with Link: TEAM 1040: Linden Vey To Accept Qualifying Offer of $735,000

[Proto]

Richardson gets bumped before Matthias I think. Matthias if he plays well could provide a nice insulation on the wing for Vey (he can take some faceoffs, help with match-ups, etc.).

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

With Kelser gone the Canucks will need Matthias to be good for them or they will have major problems all year handling the big, skilled forwards in the division. I think he gets third line time if he comes into camp ready to go.

Agreed.

Matthias needs to be a physical force who can chip in offensively on a semi regular pace.

I honestly think that Matthias and Vey will be on a line together.

 

[Scurr]

I don't think you do.

I do. I'm looking at the team different then you are. IMO Vey is competing with guys like Horvat and Gaunce for a "developmental" spot on the team. Vey gets pencilled into that spot because he's the furthest along in development. He's also going to have to compete for a spot in the lineup just like Matthias.

Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata
Burrows-Bonino-Hansen
Higgins-Vey-Kassian
Richardson-Matthias-Dorsett

That's how I see the lineup. Matthias should get pencilled in with the team as it is. My point was more that there needs to be more competition for those guys... not that Matthias needs to be replaced. I could see him beating out either or both Richardson/Dorsett for ice-tim. I gave those guys seniority in my lineup.

With Kelser gone the Canucks will need Matthias to be good for them or they will have major problems all year handling the big, skilled forwards in the division. I think he gets third line time if he comes into camp ready to go.

I like Matthias but if the plan is to have him handle the checking centre role the team is in big trouble imo.

 

[Proto]

I do. I'm looking at the team different then you are. IMO Vey is competing with guys like Horvat and Gaunce for a "developmental" spot on the team. Vey gets pencilled into that spot because he's the furthest along in development. He's also going to have to compete for a spot in the lineup just like Matthias.

Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata
Burrows-Bonino-Hansen
Higgins-Vey-Kassian
Richardson-Matthias-Dorsett

That's how I see the lineup. Matthias should get pencilled in with the team as it is. My point was more that there needs to be more competition for those guys... not that Matthias needs to be replaced. I could see him beating out either or both Richardson/Dorsett for ice-tim. I gave those guys seniority in my lineup.

Disagree on Vey. He has to clear waivers to go back down to the AHL (that's why the Kings dealt him, right?). There's just no way they move him off the roster in favour of a Horvat after spending a 2nd round pick to acquire him. He'll be on the team to start the year no matter what, at this point.

It seems more likely to me that barring injuries, Richardson or some of that ilk would be the expendable player if Gaunce/Horvat/etc push to make the club. Or JB would make a trade to clear up a roster spot.

I also think Hansen ends up on the third line and could see himself on the 4th line if he doesn't come in guns blazing.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

I do. I'm looking at the team different then you are. IMO Vey is competing with guys like Horvat and Gaunce for a "developmental" spot on the team. Vey gets pencilled into that spot because he's the furthest along in development. He's also going to have to compete for a spot in the lineup just like Matthias.

Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata
Burrows-Bonino-Hansen
Higgins-Vey-Kassian
Richardson-Matthias-Dorsett

That's how I see the lineup. Matthias should get pencilled in with the team as it is. My point was more that there needs to be more competition for those guys... not that Matthias needs to be replaced. I could see him beating out either or both Richardson/Dorsett for ice-tim. I gave those guys seniority in my lineup.



I like Matthias but if the plan is to have him handle the checking centre role the team is in big trouble imo.

I know what you're saying. I don't agree with your evaluation of Matthias though. I'm hardly in love with the guy, but I think he's shown enough to be an opening day lock.

Vey I'm pretty convinced will be as well. Horvat is the question mark. Realistically if he makes the team, it will be one of Richardson, Dorsett or Matthias who will be sitting (or traded). Obviously Hansen, Burr and Higgy are in that potential trade mix but I think Benning is going to give the team a solid look before doing much more.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

I do. I'm looking at the team different then you are. IMO Vey is competing with guys like Horvat and Gaunce for a "developmental" spot on the team. Vey gets pencilled into that spot because he's the furthest along in development. He's also going to have to compete for a spot in the lineup just like Matthias.

Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata
Burrows-Bonino-Hansen
Higgins-Vey-Kassian
Richardson-Matthias-Dorsett

That's how I see the lineup. Matthias should get pencilled in with the team as it is. My point was more that there needs to be more competition for those guys... not that Matthias needs to be replaced. I could see him beating out either or both Richardson/Dorsett for ice-tim. I gave those guys seniority in my lineup.



I like Matthias but if the plan is to have him handle the checking centre role the team is in big trouble imo.

That 2nd line... ugh. Hansen is not a 2nd line player, he does not have the offense. He's a 3rd liner at best. I see him being a 4th liner on this team or traded.

I think one of if not both of Higgins/Hansen will be traded by the end of the season if not before it starts as I think one of Horvat/Shinkaruk/Jensen (along with Vey) will make the team and bump them off the roster.

 

[Scurr]

Disagree on Vey. He has to clear waivers to go back down to the AHL (that's why the Kings dealt him, right?). There's just no way they move him off the roster in favour of a Horvat after spending a 2nd round pick to acquire him. He'll be on the team to start the year no matter what, at this point.

He's competing for a spot in the lineup imo but is probably a lock for the roster. You can't see him sitting in the stands for 9 games if Horvat outplays him in the preseason? I can.

It seems more likely to me that barring injuries, Richardson or some of that ilk would be the expendable player if Gaunce/Horvat/etc push to make the club. Or JB would make a trade to clear up a roster spot.

The team is lacking in forwards that can handle tough defensive assignments. Especially centre's. This wouldn't be smart imo.

I also think Hansen ends up on the third line and could see himself on the 4th line if he doesn't come in guns blazing.

For the reason mentioned above the team is really going to need to lean on Hansen imo.

 

[Scurr]

That 2nd line... ugh. Hansen is not a 2nd line player, he does not have the offense. He's a 3rd liner at best. I see him being a 4th liner on this team or traded.

It depends what kind of role they want that line to play. I put Bonino with Burrows & Hansen because he's more likely to get tougher match ups then Vey. Vey gets Higgins & Kassian... which gives him a pretty good shot against lesser competition.

 

[ARSix]

The team is lacking in forwards that can handle tough defensive assignments. Especially centre's. This wouldn't be smart imo.

Wait, what? We're flush with defensively capable forwards. Higgins, Hansen, Matthias, Burrows, Dorsett. The Sedins can be matched against almost anyone and come out ahead. We haven't seen Bonino yet, but he played PK for the Ducks last year so he must have some defensive credibility. Vrbata isn't a defensive forward, but he was never sheltered for ice time in Phoenix and more than held his own.

I would say this team is significantly better equipped in terms of defense in the forward ranks than most of the league. Goals for are the problem, not goals against.

Which is why Benning should sign Peter Mueller.

 

[CherryToke]

That 2nd line... ugh. Hansen is not a 2nd line player, he does not have the offense. He's a 3rd liner at best. I see him being a 4th liner on this team or traded.

I think one of if not both of Higgins/Hansen will be traded by the end of the season if not before it starts as I think one of Horvat/Shinkaruk/Jensen (along with Vey) will make the team and bump them off the roster.

Hansen is still an above average 3rd liner. don't let last years gong show fool you.

I agree he doesn't belong in the top 6 though.

 

[Scurr]

Wait, what? We're flush with defensively capable forwards. Higgins, Hansen, Matthias, Burrows, Dorsett. The Sedins can be matched against almost anyone and come out ahead. We haven't seen Bonino yet, but he played PK for the Ducks last year so he must have some defensive credibility. Vrbata isn't a defensive forward, but he was never sheltered for ice time in Phoenix and more than held his own.

I would say this team is significantly better equipped in terms of defense in the forward ranks than most of the league. Goals for are the problem, not goals against.

Which is why Benning should sign Peter Mueller.

We have some wingers that are capable defenders. None of Sedin, Bonino, Vey, Matthias, Richardson has ever been anything close to a quality NHL checking centre. Richardson does in a pinch. Guy's like Vey and Bonino are going to need the help on the wing and whoever is going to be our "checking" centre is going to need as much help as possible imo.

If we can get our good offensive players good territorial and matchup advantages... we'll score more. If we have to continue to lean on the same guys for offence and defence... we're going to be bad at both.

 

[ARSix]

None of Sedin, Bonino, Vey, Matthias, Richardson has ever been anything close to a quality NHL checking centre. Richardson does in a pinch.

This makes me question whether you're just making things up. When has Matthias NOT been a quality NHL checking center? If you need evidence of the Sedins' two-way prowess, read here: http://canucks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=667209

I'm guessing on Bonino on the basis that he was a PK guy, so you'd think he can't be awful. But in my limited Ducks viewings last year I wasn't exactly keying on him to evaluate his performance so I'll defer judgment on that until I see a few hundred ES minutes from him this season.

Meanwhile, though, Richardson has been consistently godawful at it since joining the Canucks, and he's your best example?

I think you're confusing "checking center" with "center who spends a lot of time playing in his own end because the other guys have the puck".

 

[Scurr]

This makes me question whether you're just making things up. When has Matthias NOT been a quality NHL checking center? If you need evidence of the Sedins' two-way prowess, read here: http://canucks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=667209

Matthias has had uneven success against middling competition.

The twins play well defensively but they aren't the kind of players you want starting in their own end all the time.

I'm guessing on Bonino on the basis that he was a PK guy, so you'd think he can't be awful. But in my limited Ducks viewings last year I wasn't exactly keying on him to evaluate his performance so I'll defer judgment on that until I see a few hundred ES minutes from him this season.

Bonino played well last season but he was basically playing 4th line minutes. Getz, Cogliano, Perreault all played more then he did (at even strength) and he also played middling competition.

Meanwhile, though, Richardson has been consistently godawful at it since joining the Canucks, and he's your best example?

Richardson has played the kind of checking minutes I'm talking about. He's not ideal either but he's shown more than Matthias and Bonino have.

I think you're confusing "checking center" with "center who spends a lot of time playing in his own end because the other guys have the puck".

I'm not confused at all. I'm talking about the minutes that start in your own end against Getzlaf-Perry, Toews-Kane, Thornton-Marleau, Kopitar-Williams. You think we have a centre on our roster to handle that job?

 

[ARSix]

Matthias has had uneven success against middling competition. The twins play well defensively but they aren't the kind of players you want starting in their own end all the time.

Okay, this is a fair assessment. Though I'd still say the record on Matthias shows more cause for optimism than Richardson.

I'm not confused at all. I'm talking about the minutes that start in your own end against Getzlaf-Perry, Toews-Kane, Thornton-Marleau, Kopitar-Williams. You think we have a centre on our roster to handle that job?

Okay, now I'm with you. This is based on a miscommunication between us as to how to organize the team. You think that there should be one line that gets buried in terms of zone starts and quality of competition, does all the heavy lifting to free up the more offensive-minded lines for more sheltered ES minutes. In other words, you want a new Manny Malhotra - is that a fair summary?

I don't think that really lines up with the roster we have. What we have is very little in the way of scoring prowess in our forward ranks, even if they were sheltered in the way you suggest. Further, the best scoring talent we have, the Sedins, since the departure of Malhotra, have showed quite clearly they don't need to be sheltered in that way to produce success.

I would suggest that precisely the opposite road should be taken. That is, the difficult responsibilities should be split somewhat between third and fourth lines featuring competent (if not ideal) depth centers like Bonino and Matthias as well as strong defensive wingers like Hansen, Burrows and Higgins (and probably Dorsett, of necessity). This would free up the Sedins somewhat from any such responsibility particularly in the zone starts sense, although there's no need to shelter them from tough competition. Then you put together one line that gets sheltered like no tomorrow, enough to put trade-year Hodgson to shame... probably featuring Vey and Kassian.

For me, I think that provides better use for the assets we actually have rather than trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

 

[Scurr]

Okay, now I'm with you. This is based on a miscommunication between us as to how to organize the team. You think that there should be one line that gets buried in terms of zone starts and quality of competition, does all the heavy lifting to free up the more offensive-minded lines for more sheltered ES minutes. In other words, you want a new Manny Malhotra - is that a fair summary?

That's the only viable solution I see to this roster. Having them alternately get massacred by those match ups is not a solution imo.

I don't think that really lines up with the roster we have. What we have is very little in the way of scoring prowess in our forward ranks, even if they were sheltered in the way you suggest. Further, the best scoring talent we have, the Sedins, since the departure of Malhotra, have showed quite clearly they don't need to be sheltered in that way to produce success.

How so? You think a team with Sedin, Bonino, Vey as it's top 3 centre's is going to be a "defensive" team? If guys like Bonino and Vey can't add to scoring in sheltered minutes... then they aren't going to contribute much else.

You can't really shelter the twins. They're going to see tough competition no matter what. Given that, it makes a lot of sense to give them a territorial advantage.

I would suggest that precisely the opposite road should be taken. That is, the difficult responsibilities should be split somewhat between third and fourth lines featuring competent (if not ideal) depth centers like Bonino and Matthias as well as strong defensive wingers like Hansen, Burrows and Higgins (and probably Dorsett, of necessity). This would free up the Sedins somewhat from any such responsibility particularly in the zone starts sense, although there's no need to shelter them from tough competition. Then you put together one line that gets sheltered like no tomorrow, enough to put trade-year Hodgson to shame... probably featuring Vey and Kassian.

For me, I think that provides better use for the assets we actually have rather than trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

It doesn't matter if it's one of Bonino, Matthias, Richardson or a combination of all of them. It's not reasonable to expect any of them to be able to handle the kind of minutes we're talking about.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

Hansen is still an above average 3rd liner. don't let last years gong show fool you.

I agree he doesn't belong in the top 6 though.

Oh I know he's a sloid 3rd liner,, I just think he'll get knocked down to the 4th for depth purposes

 

[Sharpshooter]

So what you're saying is that the Kings went from potentially getting "nothing" for Vey, to pulling a 2nd rounder from VAN? If so, great GM'ing by Lombardi. Turned a fleeting asset into a very solid pick...

Point is, the Kings saw all options available to them and _chose_ the green prospect that is 4-5 years away. They felt that taking on risk (development time) was worth the stretch.

How can you categorize it as "win-win" when you are

The Kings DID go from potentially getting nothing for Vey, to a 2nd round pick. I'm not just 'saying' that. That's exactly what would have potentially occurred had they not traded him. Had they re-signed him, they would have been taking up a development spot on the Monarchs and had to pay a player that they weren't going to use, because of their depth at the center spot. The fact that they moved him saved them money, got them an asset in a pick in a return. The Canucks needed more depth at the center spot, and were looking for someone NHL ready and young and the added benefit was that it wasn't costly, and the player could also play as a winger, should one of their other wingers become competitive for the center spot. And yes, great GM'ing by Lombardi and solid work by Benning as well.

How is that not a 'win-win'???

And I said I wasn't too interested in the trade from the King's perspective, because I'm more interested in the player the Nucks received as a Nucks fan, and how this player may impact the team in the short term and long term. That not a hypocritical position. That's a position that i'm selective in 'caring' about. I care more about spending time analzying and discussing how the trade affects the Nucks organization. I don't really care how it affects the King's organization. I can't make that any more clearer. I'm not sure what's left to argue or discuss about this either.

Here's what you said:



Can you see the logical inconsistency here, or are you still having trouble? I didn't make this statement, you did.

There is no logical inconsistency. The inconsistency is yours. Perhaps you're misunderstanding how logic works, I don't know.

Comparing a specific player (Vey) and his excelling in the AHL, a pro-league, to a specific player(McKeown) in the junior league, does not allow you to make the conclusion, nor assign a conclusion to me that I believe that all AHL players can be compared to all Junior players.

one =/= all
all =/= one

Not all 'successful' players that excel in the juniors translate that success and excel in the men's leagues(AHL, NHL). Vey has excelled at both level for several years. McKeown has not. I would rather have Vey for the needs at center for the Nucks organization now, because he seems more of a sure thing, based on his 3 AHL seasons than McKeown does after 2(iirc) OHL seasons, where he didn't necessarily put up any remarkably strong numbers, in comparison to what Vey put up in the juniors and then the AHL, for the lines he played on over the course of those 3 pro years. Vey has shown he can put up the numbers against men. Mckeown is a projected player, Vey is a player who has proven himself at all levels below the NHL. That's why Vey is the better prospect right now, for the Nucks, and in comparison to McKeown.

Does that mean Vey is a better prospect than McDavid? No. McDavid is so good that he can jump straight into the NHL, in the top 6, and be a contributor. Vey, after 3 AHL seasons of development, cannot have the same thing said about him.

You're in error in your logic. Plain and simple. I can't literally explain it to you any more simply than I have in these last two replies.

The "comfort" in projecting Vey to be a 2C is simply based on his talent + skillset. He's not big or fast, which is something more traditionally seen in 3C roles. He's shifty, has good hands, is smaller and can play the 2nd unit PP. This skillset lends itself to a sheltered 2C role on a traditional roster.

That's fine. If you're comfortable projecting Vey as a 2C, by all means go right ahead. I can't do that. I'm not comfortable over-rating Vey, even though I like him as a newly acquired player, and am looking enthusiastically forward to him on the team next year. I find it more realistic to be conservative in my projections with someone who hasn't played a full NHL season just yet, but who from all indications, to me, looks like a player that needs bottom 6 development to tell me whether or not he has the ability to take the top 6 step after a couple of years. I can't and won't just say he's top 6 material before that.

I said he is not ideally suited to the 3C role, and he's not. "Adequate" is up for debate, but then that's a different argument than the one I made.

I think based on his AHL performance, and his performance on the Kings over 18 games, the ideal place for him to develop in the NHL is on the third line. The Sedins did, Kesler did, Burrows did and many other now top 6 players across the league have at one time. I think it's also an ideal starting place for Vey. I also believe he'll be adequate in that spot next season. He'll only be adequate, because the NHL is a different beast than even the AHL. He'll need time to adjust. He may play only sheltered minutes. He may need to learn the NHL game this season, and focus on his defensive game at the expense of his offense. I am preparing myself to see Vey focus on his defensive responsibilities and maturation which may lead him to low point totals next season. And that's perfectly fine. If he can play responsibly then WD may give him more opportunities on the 2nd PP, PK, and perhaps more minutes. That will come with time though, as it does with most rookies.

The key piece for the pipeline being McKeown (would have thought that to be obvious?).

I've listed why Santorelli could be a 2C based on the situation here and his recent production rates. However, that's besides the point. The real issue is that Santorelli would have provided redundancy to Vey or Bonino. Free, cheap redundancy.

Still, I think the team is looking for another C even now. So we'll see what the depth looks like at the start of the year.

I can't say McKeown is a 'key piece to the pipeline'. It's not obvious he is or ever will be. He's a bet, made by the Kings, in a weak draft, with not a lot of sure bet defensive prospects. His OHL numbers don't suggest he will be a 'key' piece. If you want to opine that he will be, then by all means, have at it. I don't share it.

Santorelli is not a 2C. I don't care what mental gymnastics you need to make in your mind to come to that opinion, but he's not. He may be able to fill-in for a time due to injuries on a team, but he's not capable nor talented enough to be a full-time 2nd liner or top 6 player now.

Santorelli may have provided redundancy, I have no issue with that, but he decided to take more money with Toronto. End of story. I'm not going to worry about a player that's signed somewhere else now. Move on.

The Nucks may be looking for another center. It's possible. You may be right. Right now, I think they may also look to see if camp allows anyone to seize the spot for themselves through competition. I have a feeling that's the direction they may go. I could be wrong though. Time will tell.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

I can't bring myself to read the entire back and forth between you guys, but there is one important consideration - the Kings just won 2 cups in 3 years. They can afford to do things like that.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Meanwhile, though, Richardson has been consistently godawful at it since joining the Canucks, and he's your best example?

I don't share that opinion. He's an adequate 4th line center. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Craz1bo1]

Sportsnet Pacific ‏@SNETPacific 4m

#Canucks make it official and announce they have signed Linden Vey to a one-year contract.

 

[Sharpshooter]

I can't bring myself to read the entire back and forth between you guys, but there is one important consideration - the Kings just won 2 cups in 3 years. They can afford to do things like that.

 

[ARSix]

I don't share that opinion. He's an adequate 4th line center. Nothing more, nothing less.

Second last on the team to Sestito in terms of possession metrics. He just didn't get good results at all. I mean, he was pretty well buried in the zone starts department and he played WITH Sestito, so there's an argument that he simply couldn't overcome the black hole of awfulness that was his linemate there. But my sense was he was a serious drag on his linemates playing with Kassian and Booth later in the season, who were actually really starting to generate some great shifts on a consistent basis. Swap in Mike Santorelli there and it would have been a pretty dangerous line.

I don't think Richardson is a disaster as a fourth line C by any means, but I do think based on what he's done in Vancouver that his performance has been at best below league average for his role and at worst outright bad. Given that we're not a top-end skill team at this point, depth is more important and I'd rather have Matthias as the 4C.

 

[Barney Gumble]

I don't think Richardson is a disaster as a fourth line C by any means, but I do think based on what he's done in Vancouver that his performance has been at best below league average for his role and at worst outright bad. Given that we're not a top-end skill team at this point, depth is more important and I'd rather have Matthias as the 4C.

We simply lack proven NHL centers on the team currently. I'd rather put a guy like Sestito (who wouldn't be "needed" for by a handful of games anyhow) on waivers before unloading Richardson.

 

[The Stig]

Starting a player discussion thread now that this is at 1000. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=88107951#post88107951