Taylor vs. Tyler (from 2010 draft) -- Has Hall or Seguin been better?
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Calderon
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- Mar 24, 2006
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Was expecting a poll. I tend to dislike one hit wonders and Hall's Hart was one of the weaker ones. If you win a Hart, you've got to show heart consistently, that's how I view it. For the majority of his career Hall has arguably been second line material and has had disappointing production with little in the intangible s department. The team hopping hasn't helped.
Seguin has been a little more consistent with six consecutive 72+ point seasons while topping out at 84 which aren't superstar numbers. Hasn't been a first liner for a number of years now. I think with him you have a clearer idea of what you get even if the peak isn't quite as high. Has been worse in the playoffs, though.
Seguin with a narrow margin.
Seguin has been a little more consistent with six consecutive 72+ point seasons while topping out at 84 which aren't superstar numbers. Hasn't been a first liner for a number of years now. I think with him you have a clearer idea of what you get even if the peak isn't quite as high. Has been worse in the playoffs, though.
Seguin with a narrow margin.
WarriorofTime
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sr edler
gold is not reality
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Dallas' not been a top club the last few years because of Tyler Seguin, that's all I want to say here.
These two would both rank very high in a "who's the most frat boy-ish player ever" poll though.
These two would both rank very high in a "who's the most frat boy-ish player ever" poll though.
McGarnagle
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Safe to say neither really lived up to the hype, despite being very good NHLers with long careers.
I've always thought both would've been better off in their careers if the lottery balls fell the other way and Hall went to Boston with more leadership in place and less pressure to be the franchise player while Seguin went to Edmonton where he had more freedom to be an individual and center of attention and play center from day one.
I've always thought both would've been better off in their careers if the lottery balls fell the other way and Hall went to Boston with more leadership in place and less pressure to be the franchise player while Seguin went to Edmonton where he had more freedom to be an individual and center of attention and play center from day one.
MadLuke
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Prime Seguin was 5th in points and goals in the nhl I am not sure what their complete lack of team success mean for him and Benn too, they won a single playoff round together.
When they stopped to be the main guys the Stars started to win more, could be pure bad and good luck, more a sign of how hard it became to make the playoff in the nhl, cap management serious issues with the team, etc...
But at least he went and had a good stretch of good seasons in a row.
When they stopped to be the main guys the Stars started to win more, could be pure bad and good luck, more a sign of how hard it became to make the playoff in the nhl, cap management serious issues with the team, etc...
But at least he went and had a good stretch of good seasons in a row.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
10-11 Hall
11-12 Even
12-13 Hall by a mile
13-14 Seguin
14-15 Seguin by a mile
15-16 Seguin
16-17 Seguin
17-18 Hall in his MVP year although Seguin had his career high 40 goals that year
18-19 Seguin
19-20 Even
20-21 Hall
21-22 Hall
22-23 Seguin
23-24 Seguin
I have the seasons 7-5-2 in favour of Seguin right now. Both guys have had rollercoaster careers.
As was noted above, that Hart was a weird one from 6th in the NHL in scoring and a guy not known for great defensive play, so I don't want to overvalue it.
11-12 Even
12-13 Hall by a mile
13-14 Seguin
14-15 Seguin by a mile
15-16 Seguin
16-17 Seguin
17-18 Hall in his MVP year although Seguin had his career high 40 goals that year
18-19 Seguin
19-20 Even
20-21 Hall
21-22 Hall
22-23 Seguin
23-24 Seguin
I have the seasons 7-5-2 in favour of Seguin right now. Both guys have had rollercoaster careers.
As was noted above, that Hart was a weird one from 6th in the NHL in scoring and a guy not known for great defensive play, so I don't want to overvalue it.
sr edler
gold is not reality
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It's supposed to be a most valuable to your team award, everyone knows this including you.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
Hall was on Jersey the year before his Hart win when they sucked, so clearly he wasn't that valuable.
Seguin has been more relevant the past few years than Hall who is barely a 3rd liner these days.
sr edler
gold is not reality
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Seguin's been a complete afterthought the last few years, almost to the point of you forgetting he's still even in the league and not playing in Switzerland or something.
He's easily been much less important to Dallas' success than say Esa Lindell and Joe Pavelski, and by a big margin too.
He's easily been much less important to Dallas' success than say Esa Lindell and Joe Pavelski, and by a big margin too.
GlitchMarner
Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Hall's Hart win isn't the strongest ever, but I don't get this, "MacKinnon was robbed" narrative that seems to have become prevalent on this board since the award was presented that year.
Near the end of the season I made a poll asking which of the two was more deserving of the Hart that year and the votes were almost evenly split.
MacKinnon's been miles better since that season, but that year he had a mere four more assists despite playing with better linemates. Is a difference of four assists a good reason to cry bloody murder? lol.
Yeah, I get that MacK's a centre and all, but he's not one of the better defensive ones around. Don't think that should really move the needle. They would have given it to Connor if his team had made the playoffs.
As far Hall versus Seguin: I'd say Seguin's had the better career but not by a lot. I'm not much of a Seguin fan personally. I've called him the "Canadian Yashin" in the past. He has great physical tools and good skills but doesn't come across as the type of guy you can build a winning team around. I'm really glad TOR made the Kessel trade. I'd much rather have Matthews as a 1C than Seguin.
Hall has his flaws and warts as well, but I've always kind of liked him for some reason. He's like another Nash. Nice tools and skills and can be a beast at times.
Near the end of the season I made a poll asking which of the two was more deserving of the Hart that year and the votes were almost evenly split.
MacKinnon's been miles better since that season, but that year he had a mere four more assists despite playing with better linemates. Is a difference of four assists a good reason to cry bloody murder? lol.
Yeah, I get that MacK's a centre and all, but he's not one of the better defensive ones around. Don't think that should really move the needle. They would have given it to Connor if his team had made the playoffs.
As far Hall versus Seguin: I'd say Seguin's had the better career but not by a lot. I'm not much of a Seguin fan personally. I've called him the "Canadian Yashin" in the past. He has great physical tools and good skills but doesn't come across as the type of guy you can build a winning team around. I'm really glad TOR made the Kessel trade. I'd much rather have Matthews as a 1C than Seguin.
Hall has his flaws and warts as well, but I've always kind of liked him for some reason. He's like another Nash. Nice tools and skills and can be a beast at times.
GlitchMarner
Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
He's gone the way of Alexei Yashin.
So many similarities between these two.
Big, right-shooting centres with deadly shooting ability. Nothing special in terms of playmaking, leadership or grit when compared to other big name players. Underwhelming playoff careers. Declines into irrelevance earlier than expected/should have happened.
But Seguin comes across as a pretty boy who just doesn't have that good old Canadian grit that a Toews has in spades (your frat boy comment seems pretty apt), Yashin as just a Russian mercenary.
JianYang
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I think Seguin ended up being the better player. But I think it was sometime during covid where he was playing hurt and he looked like a shadow of himself.
I thought he had some major surgery afterwards, and he's basically never been the same.
I'm not sure if I remember that correctly though because I could be confusing him with benn's major hip procedures in the past.
I thought he had some major surgery afterwards, and he's basically never been the same.
I'm not sure if I remember that correctly though because I could be confusing him with benn's major hip procedures in the past.
It's generally not how it's actually awarded, and when it is (1989) it stands out.
He's on pace for 65 points this year. It isn't like he's winding things up as some fungible bottom-6 nobody.
Felidae
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To be fair, 82 points that year was good enough for 4th in scoring.
His stat placements
Point finishes: 4, 7
PPG finishes 2, 5, 6.
goals: 5, 5, 7, 10
GPG: 4, 9, 9
For a time you could argue he had "superstar" status. In the 2013-14 season he was very much in the Art Ross race before he missed 10+games. Neither Hall nor Seguin have the gaudy numbers and thats mostly due to era, but they aren't too far off today's star players like Rantanen, Tkachuk, Marner etc.
As for the question. Hall's stat placements in comparison are.
Points: 6, 6, 9
PPG: 5, 7, 7
Goals: 9
GPG: 7
Neither were great defensively and their overall offensive production is close. Seguin skews more towards goalscoring and he plays the more important position. But Hall had far less support on the Oilers and NJD yet managed similar offensive output. It's honestly really close, has there ever a 1st and 2nd overall so close in value?
What a pointless argument to try and make. Hall was clearly a better and more valuable player in his 2nd year there. New Jersey improved their record by 27 points that year largely because of Taylor Hall.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
I think the answer here is Seguin because he's been more adaptable and consistent over time. But it's also a little weird to see some buyer's remorse on Taylor Hall's Hart for some reason. That season just happened, guys...he was definitely a deserving winner. That team was absolutely garbage and Hall willed them into a playoff spot.
NordiquesForeva
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Normally for a 1st and 2nd overall pick one would hope that they would have been selected for an international best-on-best team and perhaps become part of the nucleus of those teams during their primes, but to my recollection neither guy really sniffed the 2014 team and while Seguin initially made the 2016 team, he had to pull out before the tournament began due to injury. Similarly, I don't recall Hall being in the conversation as a replacement (which turned out be O'Reilly).
I think its telling that "lesser talented" players of similar vintage like Duchene and O'Reilly were the ones making those teams over Hall and Seguin. Perhaps telling of how GMs viewed Hall and Seguin and their ability to adapt to a situation in which they wouldn't necessarily be in offensive roles on those teams.
I think its telling that "lesser talented" players of similar vintage like Duchene and O'Reilly were the ones making those teams over Hall and Seguin. Perhaps telling of how GMs viewed Hall and Seguin and their ability to adapt to a situation in which they wouldn't necessarily be in offensive roles on those teams.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Taylor Hall is a really cool point in position and player type evolution. I don't want to get into a whole dissertation about it...but Hall is the "failed" (that's too strong) response to the hyperspeed game. And that's why it took a while to get to where we are now in the mid 2020's (ugh...).
Crosby came in and was sort of the new mold. He could play at an insane pace ,but unlike McDavid, Crosby developed in the older school world. And his adaptation is still somewhat war-like. Right? He's ready for battle. They call him the superstar grinder because he can play on the wall, and he's amazing at puck protection and all that stuff. And then you see the next iteration of that - which is McDavid - where McDavid isn't so much of a grinder but he's an all-world rush offense creator because he grew up in sort of the no-touching, not a lot killers in lineups anymore. Crosby went against Derian Hatcher as an 18 year old, ya know?
I'm not saying McDavid isn't eligible to be hit or anything or hasn't faced any physical players. But the emphasis - overwhelmingly - is on d-men that can skate, that can absorb rushes, that aren't doing backward crossovers, right? So, to be the best...he needed to not only play at pace to be better than the rush absorbers but also to control the puck at that pace.
In the middle, you have a guy like Taylor Hall. Who plays at an insane pace. But at a cost. He's not a good distributor compared to the elite players...1st overall type players .So, the development response was "you can beat guys with speed right now...so emphasize speed" because in the first few years out of the lockout, there were still some old school redwoods hanging in there...but if you could get corner on them, you either scored or you drew a penalty. That's Taylor Hall. But it was more of a head down style of play, a little lower in mental processing, but a lot of physical tools. Yakupov isn't dissimilar in some respects.
So, that makes Hall a tough guy to place because he's a little bit linemate agnostic because of his style. Chances are the center isn't getting the puck back once it gets to Hall. He's going to hole with it and he's gonna see what happens.
Hall is also a product of the over-speed game that happened in and around 2010 or so that I talk about...where guys were put on the rink to just be fast and destroy...and the result, frankly, was no different than when it was 6'4" guys that couldn't play being put out there to destroy. In 2002, it was a 6'4" guy grabbing onto Peter Forsberg. In 2012, it was 5'10" Tyler Kennedy skating as fast as he could at Nicklas Backstrom. Those netted really similar results...even injury wise it felt like, as every NHL player racked up two concussions a piece from 2006 to 2013...
It's fun to watch this evolution and attempts with defensemen too. You watch the drafts and you can see the utter uncertainty with the position evolution. And it wasn't until, what, like the 2016 or so draft that most teams understood what you needed to do in terms of maximizing defensemen and now you have a run of these star guys...Makar, Hughes, Heiskanen, Nemec is gonna be a player, etc.
Crosby came in and was sort of the new mold. He could play at an insane pace ,but unlike McDavid, Crosby developed in the older school world. And his adaptation is still somewhat war-like. Right? He's ready for battle. They call him the superstar grinder because he can play on the wall, and he's amazing at puck protection and all that stuff. And then you see the next iteration of that - which is McDavid - where McDavid isn't so much of a grinder but he's an all-world rush offense creator because he grew up in sort of the no-touching, not a lot killers in lineups anymore. Crosby went against Derian Hatcher as an 18 year old, ya know?
I'm not saying McDavid isn't eligible to be hit or anything or hasn't faced any physical players. But the emphasis - overwhelmingly - is on d-men that can skate, that can absorb rushes, that aren't doing backward crossovers, right? So, to be the best...he needed to not only play at pace to be better than the rush absorbers but also to control the puck at that pace.
In the middle, you have a guy like Taylor Hall. Who plays at an insane pace. But at a cost. He's not a good distributor compared to the elite players...1st overall type players .So, the development response was "you can beat guys with speed right now...so emphasize speed" because in the first few years out of the lockout, there were still some old school redwoods hanging in there...but if you could get corner on them, you either scored or you drew a penalty. That's Taylor Hall. But it was more of a head down style of play, a little lower in mental processing, but a lot of physical tools. Yakupov isn't dissimilar in some respects.
So, that makes Hall a tough guy to place because he's a little bit linemate agnostic because of his style. Chances are the center isn't getting the puck back once it gets to Hall. He's going to hole with it and he's gonna see what happens.
Hall is also a product of the over-speed game that happened in and around 2010 or so that I talk about...where guys were put on the rink to just be fast and destroy...and the result, frankly, was no different than when it was 6'4" guys that couldn't play being put out there to destroy. In 2002, it was a 6'4" guy grabbing onto Peter Forsberg. In 2012, it was 5'10" Tyler Kennedy skating as fast as he could at Nicklas Backstrom. Those netted really similar results...even injury wise it felt like, as every NHL player racked up two concussions a piece from 2006 to 2013...
It's fun to watch this evolution and attempts with defensemen too. You watch the drafts and you can see the utter uncertainty with the position evolution. And it wasn't until, what, like the 2016 or so draft that most teams understood what you needed to do in terms of maximizing defensemen and now you have a run of these star guys...Makar, Hughes, Heiskanen, Nemec is gonna be a player, etc.
WarriorofTime
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MadLuke
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They were not the main guys or stars by then no ?
| 3 | Miro Heiskanen | 20 | D | 27 | 6 | 20 | 26 | 8 | 2 | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 14 | 6 | 0 | 59 | 10.2 | 701 | 25:58 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 4 | Esa Lindell | 25 | D | 27 | 1 | 7 | 8 | -12 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 41 | 2.4 | 668 | 24:44 |
| 5 | John Klingberg | 27 | D | 26 | 4 | 17 | 21 | -5 | 14 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 10 | 7 | 0 | 50 | 8.0 | 607 | 23:20 |
| 6 | Jamie Oleksiak | 27 | D | 27 | 5 | 4 | 9 | 11 | 26 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 40 | 12.5 | 584 | 21:38 |
| 7 | Joe Pavelski | 35 | C | 27 | 13 | 6 | 19 | 6 | 30 | 10 | 3 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 2 | 0 | 62 | 21.0 | 504 | 18:41 |
| 8 | Tyler Seguin | 28 | C | 26 | 2 | 11 | 13 | 1 | 12 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 8 | 2 | 1 | 69 | 2.9 | 482 | 18:31 |
| 10 | Jamie Benn | 30 | LW | 27 | 8 | 11 | 19 | 2 | 32 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 10 | 1 | 0 | 69 | 11.6 | 464 | 17:11 |
Were they above a Pavelski in the food chain ?
jigglysquishy
Registered User
This is a top to bottom fantastic post.
I'll add that the above is why Hall never gelled well with a superstar centre. His time with McDavid wasn't great. Both need the puck on their sticks. And while Hall had strong results in World Championships, he was never going to be a good fit in the Olympics. Pairing him with a superstar centre didn't help as he couldn't share the puck well. And when you have 12 superstar forwards, that's a terrible quality to have.
His rush up the wing and not look to teammates style was thrilling to watch in junior. But in the NHL it lends itself to turnovers.
His style also meant he struggled on deep possession teams. Like the Bruins were unbelievably strong and Hall was always an odd fit.
WarriorofTime
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They were 22 years old in 2014 and missed out on Olympics more in their prime at 26 and 30 due to decision outside their control.
What years do you define as them being "together" in that case?
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