Taylor Hall 2015/2016 season thread: Read OP and Post #581

[IAGTTAYM]

So much complete and utter nonsense has been written about Taylor Hall recently. Lets look at some facts instead.

GF% 5v5, minimum of 200 minutes, among forwards this season:

Hall 54%
Draisaitl 53.09%
Purcell 49.28 %
McDavid 47.37%
Hendricks 45.83%
RNH 45.31%
Pouliot 44.78%
Eberle 42.67%
Yakupov 40.43%
Pakarinen 37.04%
Korpikoski 32.50%
Kassian 30%
Letestu 29.79%
Lander 29.63%

GF% with and without since 2012/2013:

Hall: 51.3%

Hall with RNH: 52.2%
Hall with Eberle: 53.9%

Hall without RNH: 50.5%
Hall without Eberle: 49.5%

RNH: 47%

RNH with Hall: 52.2
RNH with Eberle: 49.2%

RNH without Hall: 41.9%
RNH without Eberle: 41.6%

Eberle: 46.8%

Eberle with Hall: 53.9%
Eberle with RNH: 49.3%

Eberle with Hall: 42.3%
Eberle without RNH: 42.6%

Conclusion: Taylor Hall is very good and the Edmonton Oilers are good when he's on the ice. When Taylor Hall goes and sits on the bench? Then the team turns into bottom feeding garbage.

 

[Bangers]

you would trade the future best player in the world for a lesser player, future top 4 Dman and a 1st?

insert Ace Ventura *alllllllllrighty then* .gif

A lesser player ... that is more highly regarded than any of our other 1st overall picks

A future top 4 Dman ... who is RH and better than any other Dman on the roster

And a high pick that could end up being top 3.

I'm sorry if my trade would make you take down all of the posters in your room of McDavid with hearts drawn around them, but that's a Lindros-like return - there's no way Buffalo would do it anyways.

 

[Oilfan2]

So much complete and utter nonsense has been written about Taylor Hall recently. Lets look at some facts instead.

GF% 5v5, minimum of 200 minutes, among forwards this season:

Hall 54%
Draisaitl 53.09%
Purcell 49.28 %
McDavid 47.37%
Hendricks 45.83%
RNH 45.31%
Pouliot 44.78%
Eberle 42.67%
Yakupov 40.43%
Pakarinen 37.04%
Korpikoski 32.50%
Kassian 30%
Letestu 29.79%
Lander 29.63%

GF% with and without since 2012/2013:

Hall: 51.3%

Hall with RNH: 52.2%
Hall with Eberle: 53.9%

Hall without RNH: 50.5%
Hall without Eberle: 49.5%

RNH: 47%

RNH with Hall: 52.2
RNH with Eberle: 49.2%

RNH without Hall: 41.9%
RNH without Eberle: 41.6%

Eberle: 46.8%

Eberle with Hall: 53.9%
Eberle with RNH: 49.3%

Eberle with Hall: 42.3%
Eberle without RNH: 42.6%

Conclusion: Taylor Hall is very good and the Edmonton Oilers are good when he's on the ice. When Taylor Hall goes and sits on the bench? Then the team turns into bottom feeding garbage.

I think you guys are wasting your time.

The 'triplets' won't get it or, if they do, they're going to argue anyway because....

 

[Young Lions*]

The bottom line is that 1st line wingers just don't net top pairing Dmen unless that Dman asked for a trade or an NHL ready prospect with top pairing upside. Hall is not even close to Benn or Ovechkin level so we're talking good 1st liner here, not elite of the elite. This is why I don't see Hall being dealt anytime soon. I don't see Chia dealing him for quantity and I don't see any GMs giving up high quality for him.

Meh. I'm not sold on Jamie Benn being all that. A good player, but not head and shoulders above Hall until Seguin showed up in Dallas. He's absolutely riding Tyler's coattails to some extent.

Beyond that though, you're absolutely correct that Hall would only go for quantity, but that's less about his value as a player and more about the availability of D men and the nature of the market overall.
Anybody who thinks trading Hall or any of our forwards will land a 1-2D man is simply delusional.

 

[cbzblaze]

It would be awesome if we could trade eberle for a top 4 dman, but I think his contract makes that a tough sell. Can't see many teams wanting him at $6mill. Opposing fans literally run, hearing his name in any trade proposal. He is what he is, a soft, skilled winger.

Keeping Eberle and moving Hall would not make the balance of the forward group better. Eberle is very skilled but he doesn't bring even half the tenacity of Hall, he can't win a puck battle to save his life like Hall can, and he can't drive a line. The only thing he has on Hall is better hands and better finish in tight. You better be aiming higher than Hamonic for Hall because you're leaving our wings barren with soft skilled players who lack compete and big tough players who aren't skilled enough to fill the void. Maybe if you had Eriksson or Lucic signing here I could justify trading Hall over Eberle, but it damn well better be for something better than Hamonic.

I thought I was pretty clear that I would move eberle in a heartbeat before either hall or nuge. I just don't think it will get us the D most people here are looking for. My whole point was I think Nuge helps this team, going forward, more than either hall or eberle.

I also acknowledged that in a deal like Hall for Hamonic + Lee + picks/prospect ,we lose a bit value wise but it would still make our team a whole lot better. I'm not hating on Hall, I just think it makes sense for the oilers to move him rather than moving nuge.

For the poster who said that Benn isn't that much better than Hall, well I think that's just silly. Benn was a great player before Seguin got to Dallas. Seguin become good after playing with Benn. Power forwards with that much skill are a rare breed and if we had one, we'd be preparing for a playoff run rather than who to pick in the draft again.

People need to acknowledge that this team should move forward with Mcdavid, drai, klefbom, nurse. Everyone else is no more than a complementary piece.

 

[Young Lions*]

I also acknowledged that in a deal like Hall for Hamonic + Lee + picks/prospect ,we lose a bit value wise but it would still make our team a whole lot better. I'm not hating on Hall, I just think it makes sense for the oilers to move him rather than moving nuge.

I think "a whole lot better" is overstating it. More like two steps forward one step back. The Oilers need to add talent, not subtract.

For the poster who said that Benn isn't that much better than Hall, well I think that's just silly. Benn was a great player before Seguin got to Dallas. Seguin become good after playing with Benn. Power forwards with that much skill are a rare breed and if we had one, we'd be preparing for a playoff run rather than who to pick in the draft again.

When you run the numbers, it's clear Benn got a massive boost from playing with Seguin. He went from a 60-ish point player to the Art Ross for crying out loud. Still a good player, but there's no way he's in the top five without Seguin.

People need to acknowledge that this team should move forward with Mcdavid, drai, klefbom, nurse. Everyone else is no more than a complementary piece

"Complimentary" doesn't mean "expendable." Also, I think there's strong evidence Hall isn't a complimentary player, but one who makes other players better.

Also, you lost me completely when you included Nurse in that list. He's done nothing to show he's untouchable.

 

[Raoul Duke]

So much complete and utter nonsense has been written about Taylor Hall recently. Lets look at some facts instead.

GF% 5v5, minimum of 200 minutes, among forwards this season:

Hall 54%
Draisaitl 53.09%
Purcell 49.28 %
McDavid 47.37%
Hendricks 45.83%
RNH 45.31%
Pouliot 44.78%
Eberle 42.67%
Yakupov 40.43%
Pakarinen 37.04%
Korpikoski 32.50%
Kassian 30%
Letestu 29.79%
Lander 29.63%

GF% with and without since 2012/2013:

Hall: 51.3%

Hall with RNH: 52.2%
Hall with Eberle: 53.9%

Hall without RNH: 50.5%
Hall without Eberle: 49.5%

RNH: 47%

RNH with Hall: 52.2
RNH with Eberle: 49.2%

RNH without Hall: 41.9%
RNH without Eberle: 41.6%

Eberle: 46.8%

Eberle with Hall: 53.9%
Eberle with RNH: 49.3%

Eberle with Hall: 42.3%
Eberle without RNH: 42.6%

Conclusion: Taylor Hall is very good and the Edmonton Oilers are good when he's on the ice. When Taylor Hall goes and sits on the bench? Then the team turns into bottom feeding garbage.

Yeah, but he falls down a lot.

 

[Young Lions*]

Yeah, but he falls down a lot.

And that body language! Woof!

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

So much complete and utter nonsense has been written about Taylor Hall recently. Lets look at some facts instead.

GF% 5v5, minimum of 200 minutes, among forwards this season:

Hall 54%
Draisaitl 53.09%
Purcell 49.28 %
McDavid 47.37%
Hendricks 45.83%
RNH 45.31%
Pouliot 44.78%
Eberle 42.67%
Yakupov 40.43%
Pakarinen 37.04%
Korpikoski 32.50%
Kassian 30%
Letestu 29.79%
Lander 29.63%

GF% with and without since 2012/2013:

Hall: 51.3%

Hall with RNH: 52.2%
Hall with Eberle: 53.9%

Hall without RNH: 50.5%
Hall without Eberle: 49.5%

RNH: 47%

RNH with Hall: 52.2
RNH with Eberle: 49.2%

RNH without Hall: 41.9%
RNH without Eberle: 41.6%

Eberle: 46.8%

Eberle with Hall: 53.9%
Eberle with RNH: 49.3%

Eberle with Hall: 42.3%
Eberle without RNH: 42.6%

Conclusion: Taylor Hall is very good and the Edmonton Oilers are good when he's on the ice. When Taylor Hall goes and sits on the bench? Then the team turns into bottom feeding garbage.

Excellent post! This confirms what should have been obvious. Hall is an elite player that tilts the ice in his favour.

I think that line should say "Eberle without Hall"

 

[Raoul Duke]

And that body language! Woof!

And he goes to the bar sometimes.
How have the oilers not traded him already?!!

 

[Musashi]

That puck hog is 2nd in first assists/60 and 3rd in assists/60 at 5v5 over the past four seasons.

He has the puck a lot, but it works.

Hall's playmaking is an interesting topic. Trying to break it down from my perspective, I think he has a pretty good case for maybe being the best at passing on the rush and the touch he shows on his saucer passes are a thing of beauty. Quite the testament with guys like RNH, LD, and McDavid on the team. Also just his speed has the ability to back off defenders to allow simple passes to generate a lot of room for his linemates.

When it comes to his vision or decision making on threading the needle when the offense is set up or on the PP, I think his capabilities are very average.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

And he goes to the bar sometimes.
How have the oilers not traded him already?!!

I'm curious how many with their "you guys, his body language guys" has more to do with bad personal experiences meeting him clouding judgement.

Except with that one post with the multiple accounts who's got that weird "Don't cry for me Tyler Sequin" hang up he can't shake, 7 years out.

 

[Crobby]

Hall's playmaking is an interesting topic. Trying to break it down from my perspective, I think he has a pretty good case for maybe being the best at passing on the rush and the touch he shows on his saucer passes are a thing of beauty. Quite the testament with guys like RNH, LD, and McDavid on the team. Also just his speed has the ability to back off defenders to allow simple passes to generate a lot of room for his linemates.

When it comes to his vision or decision making on threading the needle when the offense is set up or on the PP, I think his capabilities are very average.

He should not be the one controlling the puck on the half-wall. It should be in Nuge, Drai, or Mcdavid's hands. Hall should go to the net

If he gets it on the wall he should be moving up or down with speed and then getting the puck to the D or the low forward and getting to the net. The setup on our PP is just so bad sometimes

 

[Raoul Duke]

I'm curious how many with their "you guys, his body language guys" has more to do with bad personal experiences meeting him clouding judgement.

Except with that one post with the multiple accounts who's got that weird "Don't cry for me Tyler Sequin" hang up he can't shake, 7 years out.

Probably a few.
It seems irrational, to me, that anyone would be calling out an effective player on a team with so many real issues.

 

[Originally Posted By*]

I'm curious how many with their "you guys, his body language guys" has more to do with bad personal experiences meeting him clouding judgement.

Except with that one post with the multiple accounts who's got that weird "Don't cry for me Tyler Sequin" hang up he can't shake, 7 years out.

It's always been about hockey for me. Never seen the guy out in public actually, (unless you count rexall ) but I can care less if he goes to a bar every now and then. Find me a player who doesn't and I'd be more concerned.

On ice is my big issue with him. You guys are good at picking out stats and tangible results, but those stats don't show sustainability.

Given Hall's skill set (or lack, thereof), do you honestly think he is going to maintain being the third most productive forward 5 on 5 behind Crosby, and Benn? His bad edge work, bad handling of easy pucks, questionable IQ, and average shot suggest: not sustainable. See: Cheechoo, Jonathan & Heatley, Dan.

He has put up points in the past playing a loosey goosey style of hockey because Mac T and co. wanted him to drive offence at the expense of a team game. Since TM arrived, his offence dried up because TM knows Hall's style of play is not the right way to win. He can put up points till the cows come home, he also gives the puck away on unforced errors and his play imho is not sustainable going forward.

Hall is a 60 point winger, not the anomoly which was a 80 point player.

His ppg is skewed because he only played half seasons, and this half season at one point he was ppg but fell off drastically. Same would have happened earlier years had he been healthy

Edit: checking the stat, he has only maintained a true ppg or close to ppg season in one year where he played 75 games and scored 80.

Other seasons, he only played:
45 games 50 points (too small sample, at 45 GP this season he was
Ppg and fell off)
61 gp 53 points (not that impressive)

 

[Digger12]

Hall's playmaking is an interesting topic. Trying to break it down from my perspective, I think he has a pretty good case for maybe being the best at passing on the rush and the touch he shows on his saucer passes are a thing of beauty. Quite the testament with guys like RNH, LD, and McDavid on the team. Also just his speed has the ability to back off defenders to allow simple passes to generate a lot of room for his linemates.

When it comes to his vision or decision making on threading the needle when the offense is set up or on the PP, I think his capabilities are very average.

I think that's a very good breakdown of how Hall's playmaking works...excellent when he's in motion, but in static formations he can get tunnel vision and make bad choices.

 

[Musashi]

He should not be the one controlling the puck on the half-wall. It should be in Nuge, Drai, or Mcdavid's hands. Hall should go to the net

If he gets it on the wall he should be moving up or down with speed and then getting the puck to the D or the low forward and getting to the net. The setup on our PP is just so bad sometimes

Good point. All of our offensive centers are strong in the area's where Hall is average when setting up in the offensive zone so I definitely agree with how you think we should be utilizing him.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

It's always been about hockey for me. Never seen the guy out in public actually, (unless you count rexall ) but I can care less if he goes to a bar every now and then. Find me a player who doesn't and I'd be more concerned.

On ice is my big issue with him. You guys are good at picking out stats and tangible results, but those stats don't show sustainability.

Given Hall's skill set (or lack, thereof), do you honestly think he is going to maintain being the third most productive forward 5 on 5 behind Crosby, and Benn? His bad edge work, bad handling of easy pucks, questionable IQ, and average shot suggest: not sustainable. See: Cheechoo, Jonathan & Heatley, Dan.

He has put up points in the past playing a loosey goosey style of hockey because Mac T and co. wanted him to drive offence at the expense of a team game. Since TM arrived, his offence dried up because TM knows Hall's style of play is not the right way to win. He can put up points till the cows come home, he also gives the puck away on unforced errors and his play imho is not sustainable going forward.

Hall is a 60 point winger, not the anomoly which was a 80 point player.

His ppg is skewed because he only played half seasons, and this half season at one point he was ppg but fell off drastically. Same would have happened earlier years had he been healthy

Except he actually put up 80 points over a full season, suggesting that being on pace for 80 points in shortened seasons was not significantly inflating his PPG.

By "since TMac arrived" do you mean this one season? The abysmal PP has more to do with that than anything else.

I actually agree that Hall's production will take a dip as he protects the puck more but then we will need other guys to generate offense. Every player in the NHL that is relied upon to generate offense has high turnover numbers.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

It's always been about hockey for me.

That's self justification, because it hasn't, below is about hockey, tangible, measureable stats about hockey.

So much complete and utter nonsense has been written about Taylor Hall recently. Lets look at some facts instead.

GF% 5v5, minimum of 200 minutes, among forwards this season:

Hall 54%
Draisaitl 53.09%
Purcell 49.28 %
McDavid 47.37%
Hendricks 45.83%
RNH 45.31%
Pouliot 44.78%
Eberle 42.67%
Yakupov 40.43%
Pakarinen 37.04%
Korpikoski 32.50%
Kassian 30%
Letestu 29.79%
Lander 29.63%

GF% with and without since 2012/2013:

Hall: 51.3%

Hall with RNH: 52.2%
Hall with Eberle: 53.9%

Hall without RNH: 50.5%
Hall without Eberle: 49.5%

RNH: 47%

RNH with Hall: 52.2
RNH with Eberle: 49.2%

RNH without Hall: 41.9%
RNH without Eberle: 41.6%

Eberle: 46.8%

Eberle with Hall: 53.9%
Eberle with RNH: 49.3%

Eberle with Hall: 42.3%
Eberle without RNH: 42.6%

Conclusion: Taylor Hall is very good and the Edmonton Oilers are good when he's on the ice. When Taylor Hall goes and sits on the bench? Then the team turns into bottom feeding garbage.

Hall is a 60 point winger, not the anomoly which was a 80 point player.

His ppg is skewed because he only played half seasons, and this half season at one point he was ppg but fell off drastically. Same would have happened earlier years had he been healthy

These again further that point, you have preconceived notions and personal hang ups about the player, which you try to couch in "your facts" about the player.

You can think that Taylor Hall is a player with 3rd line skill, you can think that until you grow old, but it won't, at any point, be factually correct.

 

[McDraekke]

It's always been about hockey for me. Never seen the guy out in public actually, (unless you count rexall ) but I can care less if he goes to a bar every now and then. Find me a player who doesn't and I'd be more concerned.

On ice is my big issue with him. You guys are good at picking out stats and tangible results, but those stats don't show sustainability.

Given Hall's skill set (or lack, thereof), do you honestly think he is going to maintain being the third most productive forward 5 on 5 behind Crosby, and Benn? His bad edge work, bad handling of easy pucks, questionable IQ, and average shot suggest: not sustainable. See: Cheechoo, Jonathan & Heatley, Dan.

He has put up points in the past playing a loosey goosey style of hockey because Mac T and co. wanted him to drive offence at the expense of a team game. Since TM arrived, his offence dried up because TM knows Hall's style of play is not the right way to win. He can put up points till the cows come home, he also gives the puck away on unforced errors and his play imho is not sustainable going forward.

Hall is a 60 point winger, not the anomoly which was a 80 point player.

His ppg is skewed because he only played half seasons, and this half season at one point he was ppg but fell off drastically. Same would have happened earlier years had he been healthy

So much of this post, lol...

Firstly, many hockey players do not go out to bars, lol. Yakupov, for example, doesn't drink from my understanding.

Secondly.. we're picking out stats and tangible results? Tangible means solid, concrete things in this context. You must mean intangible.

Thirdly, Hall has been playing in the NHL for how many years now, but you think his play has been an anomaly, and as he enters his prime he will start getting worse? How can you see this as logical? He's had a bad second half of this season, sure... but his play in the first half was fantastic, bordering on putting him in the top 5 in scoring, not to mention his 5v5 scoring prowess.

Finally, you cannot assume that just because this year he is struggling to maintain his scoring int he second half that this would have been the same in each year that he was injured. It's just not something that you can assume realistically. I see what you're trying to say, and I can see where you are coming from. But it really has no use in reality.

You dislike it when we show you stats, and give you our opinions. But when you argue, all you are using is your opinion. Do you see how that makes your argument weaker? I'm seriously asking you this question. Are you Tyler Seguin? That could explain your irrational view of Taylor Hall.

 

[Young Lions*]

It's always been about hockey for me. Never seen the guy out in public actually, (unless you count rexall ) but I can care less if he goes to a bar every now and then. Find me a player who doesn't and I'd be more concerned.

On ice is my big issue with him. You guys are good at picking out stats and tangible results, but those stats don't show sustainability.

Yes stats are junk because they don't show things that haven't happened yet.

Given Hall's skill set (or lack, thereof), do you honestly think he is going to maintain being the third most productive forward 5 on 5 behind Crosby, and Benn? His bad edge work, bad handling of easy pucks, questionable IQ, and average shot suggest: not sustainable. See: Cheechoo, Jonathan & Heatley, Dan

Terrible examples. Cheechoo was finished by a knee injury, Heatly was a mediocre skater who got by on a good release and depended on good playmakers like Spezza and Thornton for a lot of his production. Neither were the kind of dynamic offensive drivers Hall is. This comp does little to dispel the perception that you have no idea what you are talking about

As long as Hall has his dynamic skating ability, he'll be fine. I expect once that goes, though, his game will drop off, but barring injury we're probably looking a good five or six productive seasons.

He has put up points in the past playing a loosey goosey style of hockey because Mac T and co. wanted him to drive offence at the expense of a team game. Since TM arrived, his offence dried up because TM knows Hall's style of play is not the right way to win. He can put up points till the cows come home, he also gives the puck away on unforced errors and his play imho is not sustainable going forward.

LOL. Was T-mac not coach for the first three months of the year when hall was scoring at a PPG clip?

Hall is a 60 point winger, not the anomoly which was a 80 point player.

60 points would have Hall as one of the top 20 or so scoring wingers in the league. And that's his floor. I don't think you thought this sick burn through.

His ppg is skewed because he only played half seasons, and this half season at one point he was ppg but fell off drastically. Same would have happened earlier years had he been healthy

You do understand how PPG works right?

 

[Originally Posted By*]

So much of this post, lol...

Firstly, many hockey players do not go out to bars, lol. Yakupov, for example, doesn't drink from my understanding.

Secondly.. we're picking out stats and tangible results? Tangible means solid, concrete things in this context. You must mean intangible.

Thirdly, Hall has been playing in the NHL for how many years now, but you think his play has been an anomaly, and as he enters his prime he will start getting worse? How can you see this as logical? He's had a bad second half of this season, sure... but his play in the first half was fantastic, bordering on putting him in the top 5 in scoring, not to mention his 5v5 scoring prowess.

Finally, you cannot assume that just because this year he is struggling to maintain his scoring int he second half that this would have been the same in each year that he was injured. It's just not something that you can assume realistically. I see what you're trying to say, and I can see where you are coming from. But it really has no use in reality.

You dislike it when we show you stats, and give you our opinions. But when you argue, all you are using is your opinion. Do you see how that makes your argument weaker? I'm seriously asking you this question. Are you Tyler Seguin? That could explain your irrational view of Taylor Hall.

Look, I don't care for stats as much as others because you can't base sustainability with what has happened in the past. If you could, I'd be the next Warren Buffet in the stock market. I'm telling you my opinion his skills aren't polished enough to survive a team game that TM preaches. You won't change my mind by using stats in the past.

Agree to Disagree

 

[McDeathbyCheerios*]

No I'm not Seguin lol Seguin doesn't need to knock other players down a peg, that's something Hall apologists do. Seguin is better and every GM would take Seguin over Hall, so that rules that possibility out.

Look, I don't care for stats as much as others because you can't base sustainability with what has happened in the past. If you could, I'd be the next Warren Buffet in the stock market. I'm telling you my opinion his skills aren't polished enough to survive a team game that TM preaches. You won't change my mind by using stats in the past.

Agree to Disagree

So you are now saying Taylor Hall doesn't have polished skills.

So literally he just needs to practice and pollish his skills and he will be even better.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

No I'm not Seguin lol Seguin doesn't need to knock other players down a peg, that's something Hall apologists do. Seguin is better and every GM would take Seguin over Hall, so that rules that possibility out.

Look, I don't care for stats as much as others because you can't base sustainability with what has happened in the past. If you could, I'd be the next Warren Buffet in the stock market. I'm telling you my opinion his skills aren't polished enough to survive a team game that TM preaches. You won't change my mind by using stats in the past.

Agree to Disagree

Obviously one wouldn't.

You can absolutely base sustainability on what has happened in the past. The BEST predictor of future success in hockey is past performance. Incorporate icetime, linemates, utilization, opposition, shots, high danger stratification, etc... and your model gets better.

We aren't posting stats for your sake. It's for the benefit of guests and undecided fans who constantly are affronted by the anti-Hall drivel that is posted.