Taylor Hall 2015/2016 season thread: Read OP and Post #581

[The Perfect Human*]

You guys are all preaching what a liability Hall is but somehow he nets us the best defensive return in a trade. Care to elaborate on this logic defying stance you are taking.

Yup I agree here. I think Chia will be hard pressed to garner great return for Hall alone. I believe he will be dealt in a package to maximize returns. I'm feeling a whopper of a trade(s) this summer....

 

[McTedi]

Yup I agree here. I think Chia will be hard pressed to garner great return for Hall alone. I believe he will be dealt in a package to maximize returns. I'm feeling a whopper of a trade(s) this summer....

Maybe this happens but you guys undervalue Hall to the extreme. We got lucky with McDavid, we won't be drafting a player of Hall's ilk for a very long time.

 

[Stud Muffin]

 

[Jet Walters]

Really, who?

McDavid/Drai/RNH/Eberle/Hall//Yak

That is a ton of offensive skill. Why hasn't it translated to offense?

It's because those players are not suited to excel in the tough areas at even strength where time and space is limited. Keep 2-3 of them and surround them with those type of players and watch them go super nova. We have a roster filled with guys who need to be the focal point on a PP and are not strong along the boards or net front. Goalies rarely get beat clean anymore and the majority of goals are scored by getting pucks and bodies to the net and creating chaos.

Playoff teams last year- 38 to 48 point average from 4th to 6th highest scoring forward (average games played 72-80). You can certainly have success with all your 2nd line players around .5 PPG. They just need to also bring a solid game at the other end of the ice.

 

[Stud Muffin]

Lol Jet, Hall is one of the best 5v5/60 players in the NHL.

 

[McTedi]

McDavid/Drai/RNH/Eberle/Hall//Yak

That is a ton of offensive skill. Why hasn't it translated to offense?

It's because those players are not suited to excel in the tough areas at even strength where time and space is limited. Keep 2-3 of them and surround them with those type of players and watch them go super nova. We have a roster filled with guys who need to be the focal point on a PP and are not strong along the boards or net front. Goalies rarely get beat clean anymore and the majority of goals are scored by getting pucks and bodies to the net and creating chaos.

Playoff teams last year- 38 to 48 point average from 4th to 6th highest scoring forward (average games played 72-80). You can certainly have success with all your 2nd line players around .5 PPG. They just need to also bring a solid game at the other end of the ice.

There is a lot of reasons why this lineup has failed to produce and you even cited some reasons that I agree with. With the additions of Maroon and Kassian and even to a certain extent the emergence of Davidson the lineup is slowly starting to show the right mix of grit and skill. I agree with your assessment that we have too many one dimensional skill players but I don't feel Hall is that one dimensional. He isn't the problem.

 

[Young Lions*]

You trade Hall in a package to St. Louis for Pietrangelo. If that fails, you trade him for Shattenkirk. You sign Lucic to whatever he wants. He should want to come here with Chiarelli I'd imagine.

The Oilers are now way harder to play against and have an outstanding RHD.

It's not that any of us hate Hall or are trolling you. Hall is a valuable piece and I don't see him fitting into Chiarelli's plans. Maybe we're just trying to soften the blow for when he's inevitably traded for a defenceman to make the TEAM BETTER.

You just spent the bulk of this thread describing Hall as a player that no sane GM would want on his team, a fraud whose true value is known to GMs around the league as being far far less than what we at HFOil think, a player who you can't win with, who is uncoachable, one who brings nothing to the table but the odd bout of offense and who is, as you've repeatedly and unequivocally stated, a total liability to his team. And somehow this player (who frankly doesn't even sound like an NHLer) that will land us a top paring D-man, the kind teams basically never, ever trade.

OK, then.

 

[duul]

Here are the top 6 wingers from the best teams in the west.

Lucic
Versteeg
Gaborik
Clifford
Brown
Toffoli

Ladd
Hossa
Panarin
Kane
Desjardins
Fleischmann

Benn
Eakins
Nichushkin
Seguin
Roussel
Hemsky

Tarasenko
Steen
Berglund
Brouwer
Schwartz
Fabbri

Marleau
Couture
Ward
Wingels
Hertl
Donskoi

Perry
Perron
Silvferberg
McGinn
Stewart
Ritchie

Neal
Smith
Wilson
Forsberg
Salomaki
Jarnkrok

What I've noticed is that the teams who have had the most playoff success (Chicago, LA, Nashville, Anaheim) have very defensively responsible and strong wingers for the most part, while the teams who have been dominated in the playoffs (St. Louis, San Jose) seem to be filled primarily of smallish, weak, scoring wingers.

And for reference, here is ours

Hall
Eberle
Pouliot
Yakupov
Maroon
Kassian

Hall, Eberle, Pouliot, and Yakupov make up a winger group very similar to those in St. Louis and San Jose.

 

[Tyrolean]

McDavid/Drai/RNH/Eberle/Hall//Yak

That is a ton of offensive skill. Why hasn't it translated to offense?

It's because those players are not suited to excel in the tough areas at even strength where time and space is limited. Keep 2-3 of them and surround them with those type of players and watch them go super nova. We have a roster filled with guys who need to be the focal point on a PP and are not strong along the boards or net front. Goalies rarely get beat clean anymore and the majority of goals are scored by getting pucks and bodies to the net and creating chaos.

Playoff teams last year- 38 to 48 point average from 4th to 6th highest scoring forward (average games played 72-80). You can certainly have success with all your 2nd line players around .5 PPG. They just need to also bring a solid game at the other end of the ice.

So how do you get these players? The teams that have them won't let them go without a high price and our drafting has been horrible.

 

[Throttlehead]

McDavid/Drai/RNH/Eberle/Hall//Yak

That is a ton of offensive skill. Why hasn't it translated to offense?

It's because those players are not suited to excel in the tough areas at even strength where time and space is limited. Keep 2-3 of them and surround them with those type of players and watch them go super nova. We have a roster filled with guys who need to be the focal point on a PP and are not strong along the boards or net front. Goalies rarely get beat clean anymore and the majority of goals are scored by getting pucks and bodies to the net and creating chaos.

Playoff teams last year- 38 to 48 point average from 4th to 6th highest scoring forward (average games played 72-80). You can certainly have success with all your 2nd line players around .5 PPG. They just need to also bring a solid game at the other end of the ice.

19, 20, 22, 24, 23, 22....with no support, big reason.

When you have the lowest scoring bottom 6 and lowest scoring dcore in the league, why put blame on others?

 

[Jet Walters]

Lol Jet, Hall is one of the best 5v5/60 players in the NHL.

Never said Hall is the problem. It's the collective that is the problem, not the individuals. I'm just at the point I really don't care who goes (minus McDavid) as long as some two way forwards and defensemen are brought in.

Chia has to weigh the returns from each player and make his moves. If the roster can be balanced using Eberle, Yak, and one of RNH/2016 1st, great.

 

[Up the Irons]

For **** sakes you people are always trying to run good players out of town. It Is getting sickening.

its not running good players out of town.

Its: how do we get a good Dman? and which good player can we live without?

I don't have the answers. Losing Hall would hurt, but so would losing RNH, perhaps more because of the position he plays and the 200' game he brings. Ebs would hurt less, but the return will impact less.

I'm starting to think that with Mcd being an offensive driver as well, maybe we can live without Hall. They are similar players; in some ways, its almost a waste having both because one of them gets underplayed. not to mention, Hall will net the best return.

OTOH, there might not be a return good enough to part with Hall. Ebs for Hamonic is about right. Its Hall for Petra or Subban (or the like) or nothing AFAIC.

there are alot of factors to consider.

 

[harpoon]

were having a Hall discussion here, would you care to add some insight, or are you doing a little "trip, trap"-ing yourself?

Its not a 'Hall discussion'. Its three guys who never saw a bridge they didn't feel obligated to trip trap across doing their thing.

Hall isn't as good as Kane and Ovi. Not even in the same stratosphere, and he does not have the two way players and defensive talent to get away with it. He and Eberle both seem to be above learning the defensive part of the game. Not sure why.

This quote represents the sum of the arguments against players like Hall, RNH and Eberle. Oh damn, they aren't all as good as player x. Not one of them is a perfectly rounded player. All have flaws. Any one of them could potentially be traded. Everyone on the board knows this. What other 'insight' could you possibly hope to impart here?

Sigh, if nothing else reading this thread has taught me the proper way to count give aways, and how to apply the finer points of the science of body language interpretation to my hockey viewing experiences in the future.

So not a total loss then ...

 

[Philly85*]

Pouliot-McDavid-???
???-RNH-Yak/Eberle

who knows man who knows

 

[VainGretzky]

Here is a idea why not and try to keep the majority of the top players and build a defence

 

[McDNicks17]

I wonder what Hemsky's IPP was like in his prime here because he also dominated the puck? You can look at it one of two ways IMO, Hall is the best ES producer in the league or he is the biggest puck hog in the league, maybe a little of both? IMO Hall is a guy that is good at gaining the zone and creating offense. However I'm getting to be more and more of the opinion that his form of offense is less effective than a more team oriented offensive approach.

That puck hog is 2nd in first assists/60 and 3rd in assists/60 at 5v5 over the past four seasons.

He has the puck a lot, but it works.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

That puck hog is 2nd in first assists/60 and 3rd in assists/60 at 5v5 over the past four seasons.

He has the puck a lot, but it works.

Puck hog or not he puts up points that's for sure.

 

[SDig14]

That puck hog is 2nd in first assists/60 and 3rd in assists/60 at 5v5 over the past four seasons.

He has the puck a lot, but it works.

But stats are just stats. And he looks bad.

Also, over the last 4 seasons, we have been bad. So that means Hall is bad too.

Hockey isn't a team game at all.

 

[SDig14]

It would be nice to see us actually develop into the offensive team people keep projecting us to become.

 

[Blitzago*]

But stats are just stats. And he looks bad.

Also, over the last 4 seasons, we have been bad. So that means Hall is bad too.

Hockey isn't a team game at all.

And looks are just looks, he put up points.

 

[oljimmy]

Does it really matter? A point is a point.

I'm not on the "trade Hall" team yet, but yes, it does matter. For example, a selfish player can grab a high percentage of available points but reduce overall scoring and allow a ton of chances going the other way. Then, there's the morale factor: a coach is asking 20 guys to buy into a system on a night to night basis and players who score points but who refuse to play the system are devastating to overall morale.

I don't know if any of this is Hall. But the mere fact that a player is getting points does not mean that he's helping the team win games.

 

[McFlyingV]

Like I've said before the only reason you'd move Hall is if its in a deal for a legit top 20 defender in the league, and I don't see teams lining up to hand those out. Sorry to all the Hall haters, but Hall works hard isn't afraid to play a physical aggressive game and his stats speak for themselves. He's a Chia type player, so unless that D I spoke of becomes available for him he's not going anywhere, especially not at his 6M cap hit. Eberle and Yak are both gone imo, neither have even half the tenacity as Hall and neither drive their line and possession like him. Hall is the last of the wingers to get traded, and I'm not so sure they trade any of the 3 centres either unless they absolutely have to.

 

[McFlyingV]

I'm not on the "trade Hall" team yet, but yes, it does matter. For example, a selfish player can grab a high percentage of available points but reduce overall scoring and allow a ton of chances going the other way. Then, there's the morale factor: a coach is asking 20 guys to buy into a system on a night to night basis and players who score points but who refuse to play the system are devastating to overall morale.

I don't know if any of this is Hall. But the mere fact that a player is getting points does not mean that he's helping the team win games.

I mean Hall's scoring chance differential at 5v5 is +60 while the golden boy Johnny hockey that this site seems entranced by is -25. His high danger scoring chance differential at 5v5 is +17... JG? -22.

This idea that Hall gives up more than he creates is simply way off

 

[The Perfect Human*]

I'm not on the "trade Hall" team yet, but yes, it does matter. For example, a selfish player can grab a high percentage of available points but reduce overall scoring and allow a ton of chances going the other way. Then, there's the morale factor: a coach is asking 20 guys to buy into a system on a night to night basis and players who score points but who refuse to play the system are devastating to overall morale.

I don't know if any of this is Hall. But the mere fact that a player is getting points does not mean that he's helping the team win games.

Yes to this. Not all points are equal. Hall demands the puck often from his linemates and gets a lot of touches (not gonna say he's selfish but just wants to be the driver) so it's no coincidence he's in on a lot of goals. Whether or not he's actually driving the play on the goal or the main playmaker is questionable. It could be he has collected a lot of points by association to great plays from other players or simply that he will often squeak in a point when his line is scores (without making any sort of great play) just because he demands a lot of touches. I guess the only way to determine this is to watch and analyze every point he's had in his career which is probably not possible.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

Don't get sucked in. You won't even realize you've wasted 3 hours for no reason at all...

They don't trust "3rd party websites" for anything other than posting their useless drivel.