Tavares vs Karlsson (San Jose)

[IPS]

I can see someone taking Tavares if they really need the forward help compared to defenseman help.

And that's the Sharks right there.

Tavares fits them better, unquestionably. That's why he was the Sharks plan A this offseason. Nobody seems to want to debate this though.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

And that's the Sharks right there.

Tavares fits them better, unquestionably. That's why he was the Sharks plan A this offseason. Nobody seems to want to debate this though.

If they had matching term/salaries, I think both teams would do a trade.

 

[Sojourn]

Do you see Getzlaf in the OP? I sure don't.

What's ironic is that the thread is actually about who would be the better addition to the Sharks. Not a player vs player comparison, which is what the thread has appeared to devolve into.

Let me ask you a question:

If Tavares weren't a Leaf, would you try to assert he's on the same level as Karlsson?

 

[IPS]

Let me ask you a question:

If Tavares weren't a Leaf, would you try to assert he's on the same level as Karlsson?

You can't even stay on topic, I have nothing to gain from answering that question as it doesn't even pertain to what the OP is asking.

 

[Sojourn]

And that's the Sharks right there.

Tavares fits them better, unquestionably. That's why he was the Sharks plan A this offseason. Nobody seems to want to debate this though.

Did you bother to read the thread? It's been discussed. Points were made that Tavares was a free agent signing and would have cost zero assets, while Karlsson needed to be traded. Points were made that San Jose reportedly went hard after Karlsson during the season, which goes to show that he was of interest to them for a while.

I suppose it's easy to point and say "Ha! See this? They wanted Tavares more!" but then ignore the responses.

 

[Sojourn]

You can't even stay on topic, I have nothing to gain from answering that question as it doesn't even pertain to what the OP is asking.

It's actually right on topic, or did you not notice that a large portion of the people voting for Tavares are Leafs fans?

You mean you have nothing to gain from admitting that this is because he's a Leaf.

The majority of the arguments in this thread consist of this: Erik Karlsson is the much better player. He would be the better add.

That's why it became a 1 vs 1 comparison. San Jose can continue to try to address any future needs at center, but adding Erik Karlsson is huge. Teams can go 20 years and not get a player like that. He's a future Hall of Fame defenseman, and he's only 28 years old. He'll be the foundation of their team for years, if they can lock him up long-term.

 

[IPS]

Did you bother to read the thread? It's been discussed. Points were made that Tavares was a free agent signing and would have cost zero assets, while Karlsson needed to be traded. Points were made that San Jose reportedly went hard after Karlsson during the season, which goes to show that he was of interest to them for a while.

I suppose it's easy to point and say "Ha! See this? They wanted Tavares more!" but then ignore the responses.

I've been contributing to the thread the whole way though, of course I read it. I'm questioning if you've read it, because if you actually read my posts from earlier in the thread, I obviously brought up some pretty compelling points that have yet to be addressed by non-Leafs troll posts. How about you, do you care to address them?

It's actually right on topic, or did you not notice that a large portion of the people voting for Tavares are Leafs fans?

You mean you have nothing to gain from admitting that this is because he's a Leaf.

Jesus cut it out already, how the f*** can you accuse me of not reading the thread then post something like this?

I'm really not interested in the Tavares vs Karlsson debate. Karlsson's obviously better, I thought this was apparant. It's about who fits the Sharks better. I'm not nearly convinced that Karlsson does, seeing as they're will be diminishing returrns to an extent with Burns already there. What they need is a god damn center. Thus Tavares fits better.

 

[Sojourn]

I've been contributing to the thread the whole way though, of course I read it. I'm questioning if you've read it, because if you actually read my posts from earlier in the thread, I obviously brought up some pretty compelling points that have yet to be addressed by non-Leafs troll posts. How about you, do you care to address them?

You haven't made any compelling points about San Jose desiring Tavares over Karlsson.

Your points came down to: I think Tavares fits a need more.

That's not compelling, and it's easily countered by pointing out that Karlsson is the superior player, playing a position that typically ages better, and would be a more valuable long-term asset. Which, I'd point out, was responded to prior to you even making those posts. You're asking people to repeat themselves for points already made, because you think you cleverly came up with something new?

Jesus cut it out already, how the **** can you accuse me of not reading the thread then post something like this?

Because I don't think we'd be having this discussion if Tavares weren't a Maple Leaf.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I don’t understand the arguing about who is the better player.

Tavares simply made much more sense for the Sharks. We have an aging center Corps, and we needed a bonified top center. Tavares is exactly that. In the end it worked out, because not getting him....we were able to turn our focus to dealing with Ottawa.

Who’s the better player doesn’t matter. Wilson made the right move goinf for Tavares. Having EK on board now will only make us stronger, but getting Tavares would have done the same thing with our center depth. We have Burns and Vlasic already, not saying they are better than EK, just that our defense wasn’t in question as much as are top center position. Either way we are a better team now. All we have to do is run a system that allows EK to be offensive while not being a liability defensively.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You haven't made any compelling points about San Jose desiring Tavares over Karlsson.

Your points came down to: I think Tavares fits a need more.

That's not compelling, and it's easily countered by pointing out that Karlsson is the superior player, playing a position that typically ages better, and would be a more valuable long-term asset. Which, I'd point out, was responded to prior to you even making those posts. You're asking people to repeat themselves for points already made, because you think you cleverly came up with something new?

Because I don't think we'd be having this discussion if Tavares weren't a Maple Leaf.

We obviously destired Tavares. In the end it’s a faulty way of looking at it because EK wasn’t available for an offer. We needed(still need in the long run) a top notch center and he was by far the best one on the market. EK wasn’t an option at that point.

Tavares would have benefited the sharks in the long run regardless. What your not understanding is EK can be the better player, but still be equally valuable to the sharks as Tavares....the problem your not understanding is we needed a center more than a defenseman....we just happened to land one of the best in the league. Still doesn’t change the fact that that will be an issue in the near future.

 

[Sojourn]

We obviously destired Tavares. In the end it’s a faulty way of looking at it because EK wasn’t available for an offer. We needed(still need in the long run) a top notch center and he was by far the best one on the market. EK wasn’t an option at that point.

Tavares would have benefited the sharks in the long run regardless. What your not understanding is EK can be the better player, but still be equally valuable to the sharks as Tavares....the problem your not understanding is we needed a center more than a defenseman....we just happened to land one of the best in the league. Still doesn’t change the fact that that will be an issue in the near future.

I'm curious... by that same argument, is that not true on defense too? The only difference being it might have been a few years down the road.

Center might have been the more immediate need, but can you really say you weren't a couple of years away from possibly being in trouble on the blue line?

You obviously also desired Karlsson, if the report of San Jose going after him is true.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'm curious... by that same argument, is that not true on defense too? The only difference being it might have been a few years down the road.

Center might have been the more immediate need, but can you really say you weren't a couple of years away from possibly being in trouble on the blue line?

You obviously also desired Karlsson, if the report of San Jose going after him is true.

Of course. Like I said, it’s a win win, but getting a center now would have benefited us more down the road than a defenseman. We have Burns and Vlasic locked up. It doesn’t hurt to add another defenseman, especially one of EKs talent, but that still doesn’t solve our problem at center in the near future.

Would we still need help down the road on our blue line? Absolutely, but it was obvious that that center spot is more crucial for the sharks. We just happen to land a defenseman who is also an elite playmaker. In the end only time will tell.

I’m glad we went after Tavares, and I’m extremely happy Wilson was able to make a move on EK. But I’m sure we don’t get EK if Tavares doesn’t turn us down. Like I said, this all depends on how the season plays out on whether or not it benefits us.

 

[LeafsNation75]

But I’m sure we don’t get EK if Tavares doesn’t turn us down.

That's exactly what I said before and it's nice to see a Sharks fan who thinks the same thing.

 

[Agent Zub]

Of course. Like I said, it’s a win win, but getting a center now would have benefited us more down the road than a defenseman. We have Burns and Vlasic locked up. It doesn’t hurt to add another defenseman, especially one of EKs talent, but that still doesn’t solve our problem at center in the near future.

Would we still need help down the road on our blue line? Absolutely, but it was obvious that that center spot is more crucial for the sharks. We just happen to land a defenseman who is also an elite playmaker. In the end only time will tell.

I’m glad we went after Tavares, and I’m extremely happy Wilson was able to make a move on EK. But I’m sure we don’t get EK if Tavares doesn’t turn us down. Like I said, this all depends on how the season plays out on whether or not it benefits us.

I don't think you understand the gulf in talent between the two.

Kalrsson can take a team to one goal of the finals with two 2nd line centers.

Tavares can't come close to imacting the game like Karlsson.

When you have a talent of Karlssnons level positional need goes out the window especially when the player, ( such as Tavares) is a tier or two below.

 

[Puckstuff]

If the leafs wanted Karlsson they could just put Marner on defence; because Karlsson is just that; a 4th forward! His defence is cringe worthy at times

 

[LeafsNation75]

Kalrsson can take a team to one goal of the finals with two 2nd line centers.

So using that logic shouldn't Karlsson also get the same blame for leading the Senators to a 30th place finish in the overall standings from last season?

 

[I am not exposed]

Tavares. I think it gives the lineup a better balance tbh.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I don't think you understand the gulf in talent between the two.

Kalrsson can take a team to one goal of the finals with two 2nd line centers.

Tavares can't come close to imacting the game like Karlsson.

When you have a talent of Karlssnons level positional need goes out the window especially when the player, ( such as Tavares) is a tier or two below.

No....your not understand. Again, Your making an argument out of this that really isn’t the issue.

Who is or isn’t better doesn’t matter. At all. Period. The Sharks didn’t go for Tavares because he was “better.” They went for him because he was the best center available AND because we need a top line elite center, which he is. It was the right move for the long run. The fact remains we have one of the top shut down Defenseman with one of the most elite offensively, getting another defenseman wasn’t on top of our list. Us landing EK doesn’t change the fact that it was a big move for us and it’s someone that can definitely take the team to another level. Could have Tavares done the same? Absolutely. But we will never know.

Whether or not EK can impact the sharks is still up for debate. We have to wait and see....but whether or not Tavares would have been better doesn’t matter at this point. Whoever is better doesn’t matter...it’s about what was best for the Sharks, and a center piece was our main priority.

 

[North Cole]

I've been contributing to the thread the whole way though, of course I read it. I'm questioning if you've read it, because if you actually read my posts from earlier in the thread, I obviously brought up some pretty compelling points that have yet to be addressed by non-Leafs troll posts. How about you, do you care to address them?


Jesus cut it out already, how the **** can you accuse me of not reading the thread then post something like this?

I'm really not interested in the Tavares vs Karlsson debate. Karlsson's obviously better, I thought this was apparant. It's about who fits the Sharks better. I'm not nearly convinced that Karlsson does, seeing as they're will be diminishing returrns to an extent with Burns already there. What they need is a god damn center. Thus Tavares fits better.

How is there diminishing returns? Does Burns play the whole 60 minutes?

Best player available = best fit. It's not much more difficult than that. Team need should only be a thing if they are close comparables, which I'm not really sure they are. Pavelski/Jumbo/Couture is enough down the middle to win a cup.

You dont think there would be diminishing returns by adding JT, but you think there is diminishing returns by adding another Norris defenseman? K.

Eg - Oilers need a good 1D. If offered a choice between Ryan Suter (or insert some other bubble top-10D) or Kucherov (top 10 player in the league), I'm taking kucherov and running...I'm running so far I'm never seen again.

 

[Registered User]

As a Sharks fan, I voted Tavares for the same reason stated here already: he happened to fit a (much) greater need. I think Tavares is a bit underrated, and could become a top 5 player, a la peak Toews with higher point totals, under the right conditions. He's the type of player who seems to lift everyone around him, which isn't the case for every radiant forward talent in the league. If we've seen his ceiling already then there is a pretty wide gulf and I'm more and more persuaded that the "better add" - if they were both on the table and mutually exclusive - is probably Karlsson because he's actually that good. Would the better add be Doughty or 2014-15 Toews, is a similar question to me. It's an interesting debate and a good read. Thanks HFB.

 

[X66]

Using this logic, that there's more superstar forwards than defensemen, thus easier for defensemen to dominate their peers, then I guess Matt Duchene is on the same level as Drew Doughty? After all, Duchene's had to compete with guys like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, McDavid, etc.

Sounds like a cop out to me. Henrik Sedin won a scoring title against those guys. Patrick Kane won a scoring title against those guys. Taylor Hall just won a Hart against those guys. Why couldn't Tavares if he's so good?



And how many great players has Karlsson had to play with in Ottawa? It's not like he's had a whole lot surrounding him, either. Their offense has been so bad that Karlsson, as a defenseman, has lead their team in scoring something like 4 or 5 seasons in a row.

And yet playing on bad teams hasn't prevented Karlsson from winning individual awards. But it's an excuse for Tavares' empty trophy case.

What’s the cop out? Look at all the scoring leader winners since 2005 and you tell me which one had a worse supporting cast than Tavares, I’ll wait.

McDavid is probably the only arguable one, and he had Draisaitl, but he’s on another level than Karlsson and Tavares.

Your Karlsson argument falls flat as well because a good team and supporting cast have far more weight in determining Art and Hart winners than it does winning a Norris.

You’ve already said you think tavares is overrated before, just like I said he was a top 5 center long before he joined the leafs, so I guess we aren’t changing each other’s opinions.

But very few elite talents haven’t been wasted to the degree that Tavares was on the island.

 

[Hellraising Senator]

San Jose, was in fact, going hard for Karlsson BEFORE they offered Tavares a contract. This is fact.

This thread is full of weird arguements and strange conjectures.

My OPINION is the majority of general managers with a gun to head, having to pick either one, choose Karlsson. I would be surprised if any one chose Tavares, though without actually being in the heads of any of the gms it is impossible to know.

The notion so many posters here talk about their opinions as fact is laughable.

Just my 2 cents for free.

Edit...this doesn't at all diminish Tavares value or quality of a player. Every team would love a Tavares.

 

[NyQuil]

Ironically, Tavares would have been a better fit in San Jose and Karlsson would have been a better fit in Toronto.

Simply based on team needs and existing player depth.

Everyone who isn't a Sharks or Leafs fan thinks it's patently obvious.

Obviously adding either player to any team is a net positive.

 

[LeafsNation75]

San Jose, was in fact, going hard for Karlsson BEFORE they offered Tavares a contract. This is fact.

This thread is full of weird arguements and strange conjectures.

My OPINION is the majority of general managers with a gun to head, having to pick either one, choose Karlsson. I would be surprised if any one chose Tavares, though without actually being in the heads of any of the gms it is impossible to know.

The notion so many posters here talk about their opinions as fact is laughable.

Just my 2 cents for free.

Edit...this doesn't at all diminish Tavares value or quality of a player. Every team would love a Tavares.

It was a well known fact prior to July 1st that Tampa Bay was trying to sign Tavares and trade for Karlsson.

 

[Master P]

Karlsson AINEC