Tavares vs Karlsson (San Jose)

[Sidney the Kidney]

What’s the cop out? Look at all the scoring leader winners since 2005 and you tell me which one had a worse supporting cast than Tavares, I’ll wait.

So if Tavares doesn't win the scoring title in any of the years he's with the Leafs, what will the excuse be then? If the only thing ever holding Tavares back from winning individual trophies is his supporting cast, then he should literally have zero excuse not to challenge McDavid this season, no?

McDavid is probably the only arguable one, and he had Draisaitl, but he’s on another level than Karlsson and Tavares.

Your Karlsson argument falls flat as well because a good team and supporting cast have far more weight in determining Art and Hart winners than it does winning a Norris.

You’ve already said you think tavares is overrated before, just like I said he was a top 5 center long before he joined the leafs, so I guess we aren’t changing each other’s opinions.

But very few elite talents haven’t been wasted to the degree that Tavares was on the island.

I think you're moving the goal posts a bit from the original discussion of you saying Tavares is on Karlsson's tier, and me saying he's not. Now you seem to just be arguing about Tavares being a great player, as though I'm saying he's junk or whatever. The original point wasn't that Tavares wasn't a great player, it was that he wasn't on Karlsson's level.

I think Karlsson's the defense equivalent of what Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin were for forwards this generation. Maybe a notch below, but for all intents and purposes, that tier of player. I think Tavares is closer to the Giroux/Getzlaf tier, which is an obvious tier below Crosby/Malkin tier.

So this isn't about "thinking Tavares is overrated". This is thinking Tavares simply is in a lower tier than the (arguably) best defenseman of this generation.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So this isn't about "thinking Tavares is overrated". This is thinking Tavares simply is in a lower tier than the (arguably) best defenseman of this generation.

Yet there was a response from a Sharks fan who said if they signed Tavares he would also have filled a need for them at centre for the long term.

 

[Sky04]

Karlsson is the better player, but I think adding a top-center long term would've been more "beneficial." Karlsson is a pure rental until extended, Tavares was long term.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Yet there was a response from a Sharks fan who said if they signed Tavares he would also have filled a need for them at centre for the long term.

You're arguing something completely opposite of what I'm talking about. You're talking about which San Jose needed more (center or defense), I'm talking specifically about who is the better player.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You're arguing something completely opposite of what I'm talking about. You're talking about which San Jose needed more (center or defense), I'm talking specifically about who is the better player.

I realize that but in the opinion of some Sharks fans they don't all see it that Karlsson is a better player than Tavares just because they were able to trade for him.

 

[Morgs]

In a vacuum, it's Karlsson easy.

For the Leafs, it's Karlsson easy (if he extends ofc)

I still want to pick Tavares though because he's my boy now and I gotta protect my own.

 

[CanadienShark]

Yes I do. However it's still something he has won since coming into the NHL even though it's not technically individual. Using your logic I guess you can include Nicklas Backstrom who has not won any individual awards since coming to the NHL and discredit him winning the Stanley Cup with the Capitals since it's not an individual award.

That's not discredit to Backstrom. Like Tavares, he's an elite #1C. You're getting upset about facts.

 

[LeafsNation75]

That's not discredit to Backstrom. Like Tavares, he's an elite #1C. You're getting upset about facts.

I know Tavares has not won an induvial award in the NHL and I'm not doubting that fact. I was just stating that it's not fair to criticize him when Tavares finished 2nd for the Art Ross because it was something he had no control over, despite adding 2 points to his total the night Benn passed him. I only mentioned Backstrom as an example because he has also not won an induvial award, despite just winning a Stanley Cup.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I know Tavares has not won an induvial award in the NHL and I'm not doubting that fact. I was just stating that it's not fair to criticize him when Tavares finished 2nd for the Art Ross because it was something he had no control over, despite adding 2 points to his total the night Benn passed him. I only mentioned Backstrom as an example because he has also not won an induvial award, despite just winning a Stanley Cup.

If Backstrom is ever compared to Karlsson and someone insists Backstrom is on Karlsson's level, then yes, you can point out that Backstrom has no individual awards and thus, that's a big part of the reason he's not on Karlsson's level.

The difference is Caps fans aren't trying to say Backstrom is on Karlsson's level, just like Ducks fans aren't trying to insist Getzlaf is, or Dallas fans aren't trying to insist Seguin is.

 

[LeafsNation75]

If Backstrom is ever compared to Karlsson and someone insists Backstrom is on Karlsson's level, then yes, you can point out that Backstrom has no individual awards and thus, that's a big part of the reason he's not on Karlsson's level.

The difference is Caps fans aren't trying to say Backstrom is on Karlsson's level, just like Ducks fans aren't trying to insist Getzlaf is, or Dallas fans aren't trying to insist Seguin is.

Exactly how many Leafs fans have said Tavares is on Karlsson's level? So I don't consider them saying Tavares is just as good a signing is them suggesting that.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Exactly how many Leafs fans have said Tavares is on Karlsson's level? So I don't consider them saying Tavares is just as good a signing is them suggesting that.

I mean, my entire discussion in this thread with that Leaf fan in this thread is based on him insisting Karlsson and Tavares are in the same tier of player. That was my only reason for even mentioning Tavares' empty trophy case.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I mean, my entire discussion in this thread with that Leaf fan in this thread is based on him insisting Karlsson and Tavares are in the same tier of player. That was my only reason for even mentioning Tavares' empty trophy case.

Do you not think it's possible they could be in the same tier if Karlsson does not re-sign and becomes a UFA? Like they said on TSN when Tavares signed he was the biggest UFA to hit the market since Scott Niedermayer. So on the 1% chance that happens for Karlsson you can not deny that him and Tavares would be the biggest UFA's in terms of how important they are.

 

[Cleetus]

dont care who is better, im happy we got Tavares the guy is a beast he dominates and uses his strength drives the net, will help the leafs tremendously..... we will see how Karlsson is this year because last year he was a defensive liability....

 

[Sensinitis]

You realize that San Jose couldn’t offer a contract to Karlsson, right? All they could do was discuss a trade with Ottawa, which we wouldn’t have heard much about until after the trade.

Again, you’re trying to suggest San Jose valued Tavares more. It’s that simple. You’re countering the argument that no one would prefer Tavares to Karlsson by taking two different situations(a trade vs. a contract offer) and acting like it means San Jose valued Tavares more. As a neutral observer, if given the choice, I take Karlsson. If I’m San Jose, I take Karlsson. If I know I can get Karlsson signed for long-term, while also trading for him and giving up not too much, I’d probably injure myself trying to get to the phone as quickly as I could. Even if Tavares is on the other line.

What if San Jose just didn’t realize they could get Karlsson without paying a premium? What if they were making an offer to Tavares while also trying to trade for Karlsson? It doesn’t need to be one or the other. Both can occur at the same time, and regardless of the result if San Jose gets one of them it’s a win for them.

It’s like talking to a wall isn’t it?

 

[Sky04]

dont care who is better, im happy we got Tavares the guy is a beast he dominates and uses his strength drives the net, will help the leafs tremendously..... we will see how Karlsson is this year because last year he was a defensive liability....

And so was Tavares.....who you know isn't exactly a two-way center right?

 

[Cleetus]

And so was Tavares.....who you know isn't exactly a two-way center right?

better than what we had last year so a upgrade for the leafs.. which is all im concerned about...

 

[Sky04]

better than what we had last year so a upgrade for the leafs.. which is all im concerned about...

Ok........and you know this topic is about who would've/is the better add for the SHARKS right? Typical, trying to make the topic about yourselves.

 

[Cleetus]

Ok........and you know this topic is about who would've/is the better add for the SHARKS right? Typical, trying to make the topic about yourselves.

lol I posted about a player that is in this thread dont like it move on. I answered the poll and can post my thoughts why dont u move on. and dont generalize fans people dont like that.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Karlsson is two times the player Tavares is, so Karlsson.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Why are so many of you still think being the “better” player somehow means it was a better fit?

Whoever is better or not doesn’t change the fact that we needed(still need for the most part) a top line center. We didn’t EK, we didn’t need a defenseman...but that shouldn’t take away the fact that he can make us a better team and be a better fit, but we have to see how the season plays out to see.

EK is obviously a phenomenal player, and gaining him added a lot of opportunity on both ends of the ice, still doesn’t change a big piece that will need to be addressed, the top center spot.

 

[Sojourn]

It’s like talking to a wall isn’t it?

Worse. You expect talking to walls to be one-sided, but this is just downright frustrating.